bah.

[ulysses]

Basic human decency knows no boundaries of religion or nonreligion. Neither does the lack of that basic human decency.

Some of our greatest progressives, and some of the finest people and best allies on DU, have been or are people of faith. Some of our greatest progressives, and some of the finest people and best allies on DU, have been or are people of no faith. So what?

Bah. A pox on any number of houses.

[niyad]

1. did I miss something?

[ulysses]

2. nah.

Just commenting late on some of what I read here.

[hedgehog]

3. I can't figure out why so many come into this forum not to

discuss religion but to denounce it. It's not called the "trash the believers' beliefs" forum, but a lot seem to think that is the name. It's like the kid with a thousand piercings complaining about people staring at him. Why go to a place where people are talking about religion if it irritates you so much?

[Proud_Democratt]

4. Every member of DU is allowed to post here.

There are Discussion Groups, if you want less interference.
Maybe there should be a "Non-believers" forum.

[hedgehog]

5. I'm not saying don't post.

I'm just asking why some people apparently post only to denounce religion ( which tends to become a denunciation of Christianity) I expected to find more thoughtful discussion than I've seen.

[Proud_Democratt]

6. All it takes is... one person offending another...

and then the war is on!

[hedgehog]

7. I'm not offended

Just curious.

What war?

[Proud_Democratt]

9. Name-calling,etc.

[Proud_Democratt]

10. It's very hard to be a civil Atheist in this country....almost like

being a Jew in Nazi-Germany.

[hedgehog]

12. Well, I'd go along with a Papist in southern Ohio about 50 years ago.

But I think your comparison is a little over the top. I can remember when some people complained if Catholics didn't send their kids to Catholic school since as outsiders we were a burden on the public school system. It wasn't great, but it wasn't Nazi Germany.

[Proud_Democratt]

18. You're not in my shoes, are you?

Sell the "over the top" phrase to the Native Americans....IF there are any left.

[Proud_Democratt]

22. But a Catholic can admit his/her belief publicly...

without jeers, threats or other retaliations.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

26. Is it really that awful?

Can you give some examples? I didn't realize it was that bad. I mean I read the snark article, but in your daily life? Do you feel a lot of discrimination?

[Proud_Democratt]

35. Unfortunately....you cannot publicize you non-belief.

The first thing you hear is usually, "you're goin' to Hell"
My own sister is a "wrong" winged Christian that is also a Gospel singer...so her head is really in the clouds. She likes to make my Atheism known in front of my mother and complete strangers. I guess that gives a basis for conversation while I'm not present. I have not visited her in a year or spoke to her. My brother isn't as bad...he just avoids me.
I never once "pushed" this in their faces. My mother IS supportive even though she's a Christian.
She feels that it's more important to be a loving kind person.

You can't possibly know or feel until you walk in these shoes. I "came out" two years ago to free myself. I couldn't contain myself any longer.

[Proud_Democratt]

36. Discrimination is present

after they find out about your non-belief....it's usually done with avoidance of conversation or cliquish types of activities. Your old friends become silent acquaintances.
I have found great inner happiness though...with myself, I believe in my strengths and weaknesses.
I finally have a clear mind and am able to recognize when things aren't right for me.


Thanks for the open ear, T. Grannie!
My mother is alot like you, just not quite as literate.

[Dorian Gray]

44. I feel bad that it's so tough for you...

I am religious myself, but i have many friends who are Athiests and/or Agnostics. None of them feel any persecution in their daily lives, but we live in NYC... a melting pot of all kinds. As a matter of fact, I've pretty much always lived in big cities since my college years, so I don't notice this every day prejudice regarding religion. I'm lucky, I guess.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

25. Well, there kind of is

because there is an atheists' group. But it would get pretty boring around here without them. Kind of an echo chamber. I enjoy the diversity.

[Proud_Democratt]

8. Is anyone forcing you to post here?

I know it may be hard to understand...but Atheists cannot "openly" express their non-belief. We have no church....some of our families have disowned us....we are judged as evil-doers, etc.
Since there is no Atheist Forum(of the free type), some of us congregate here.

It is next-to impossible to discuss God or Jesus with an Atheist. It's not their fault...it's just not their belief.

[hedgehog]

11. Hey , I thought people came here to discuss religion/theology

and please don't think that I call atheists evil doers.

[bloom]

13. Some people are clearly looking for war

The atheists who insist on being rude are not doing the rest of us atheists any favors.

[Goblinmonger]

16. What is being rude?

Posting what we think? Actually taking a stand for ourselves? Yeah, that's pretty rude.

And many of us that post here (theists and atheists, both) are here because we like to debate. That has been openly stated in several threads. R/T is not a place for the thin-skinned. If you can't handle it, then don't come here. Go to a group that will be more friendly to what you think. Maybe you want to come spend some time with your fellow atheists in A/A. We would gladly welcome a fellow atheist.

And I would also venture to say that atheists that take things out of context are not doing the rest of us atheists any favors.

[trotsky]

23. !

And I would also venture to say that atheists that take things out of context are not doing the rest of us atheists any favors.

Ra-fucking-men. :applause:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. I can't think of any time I have treated without respect

on this forum, although I've hit a few walls in GD.

[Proud_Democratt]

19. Not looking for war....don't need war...and NO war in the U.S...

was started by an Atheist.

[Proud_Democratt]

20. We've been silent and silenced way too long...

Look at the shape of our country and it's leadership.
Aren't you tired of the violence, war, scare tactics, greed and apathy for the common folks???
Aren't you tired of religous nutjob leadership taking our country into "record" deficit?

[Proud_Democratt]

21. The war against you and me is being planned at Capitol Hill and

in the right-wing churches.

[ulysses]

28. welcome to my point.

in the right-wing churches.

Emphasis added. Not all that is religious is right wing.

[Proud_Democratt]

37. Point taken....you do make a good case there

[ulysses]

38. thanks.

We agree more than you might know. I just think that's an important distinction.

[Strong Atheist]

52. "...are not doing the rest of us atheists any favors."

ROFLMAO!

:rofl:

[trotsky]

14. Where do you draw the line between criticism and denouncement,

and do you have specific examples of each?

[Goblinmonger]

15. So

atheists should not be able to discuss the impact of religion on politics on a forum in a political website? That doesn't make sense. Just because I am an atheist doesn't mean that religion doesn't impact me culturally and politically.

Also, we shouldn't be able to discuss theology? Why the hell not? I was a catholic for many years. Was in a seminary to become a priest. Because I am no longer a theist, I can't discuss theology?

Finally, stop treating the kid with a thousand piercings like he is a freak. Nobody treats you like a freak for not having piercings, why should you act differently because that kid does? Some of the best kids I teach are kids that have a "thousand" piercings. Let people be an individual and stop judging them for that. They will appreciate it.

[SidDithers]

24. There are also moderated "sectarian" forums...

if it gets too rough in here. Atheist whackjobs rarely go there.

Sid

[hunter]

17. This is a very safe place to discuss Religion/Theology...

...compared to much of the world.

If you try to discuss some of the things discussed in this forum out it the "real" world, you might get fired, beaten, stoned, shunned, disowned, etc., etc.

In this forum you can be openly Catholic, atheist, Wiccan, hostile towards all organized religion, whatever, and the worst that happens is somebody calls you names.

My own real world is mostly Catholic, spiced with liberal Protestants of various sorts, a handful of atheists, and a few super-humanly tolerant Fundamentalists who really do try to love everyone both in deed and within their own hearts. Our discussions about Religion and Theology are not nearly so interesting as some of the flaming that goes on here.

[immoderate]

29. Let's say, hypothetically....

that someone does think that religion is the bane of modern society. Where might that person go to warn members of that society about the perceived danger? :shrug: <--Love this guy!

(Hint: Atheist's forum might not give the best feedback.)

--IMM

[ulysses]

30. depends on what that person hopes to achieve.

If she hopes to foster reasonable and interesting discussion with people of faith concerning the danger she perceives, this is probably the place. If she hopes to convince an avalanche of the progressive faithful that their belief system is the bane of modern humanity simply by repeating that it is so...I suppose this is probably still the place, but she might also consider counseling. IMO.

[immoderate]

31. That's the point. This is the place.

--IMM

[ulysses]

32. so it is. an irony, though...

There are quite a few fine and intelligent religious DUers that I rarely or never see post in this forum, and I imagine that it's because they don't care to be proselytized to any more than you would by your local fundie Baptists. You might as well be posting to the Atheist/Agnostic forum because they're not here to give you the feedback either.

Just a thought. Let me know how the conversions are going.

[immoderate]

33. Like I said, it was hypothetical.

I don't think anyone gets converted here. But this is where the rubber meets the road. Note that there are those who assert that atheism is a religion, and then there are those who wonder why atheists would post in a religion forum.

Also note that many of the atheists have been converted sometime in their history. That has to go on somewhere. This is one place where the dissonance is noted. The conversions take place internally.

--IMM

[ulysses]

34. so noted.

Note that there are those who assert that atheism is a religion, and then there are those who wonder why atheists would post in a religion forum.

Fair point. Note in return that I'm in no way saying that atheists shouldn't post in this forum - I'm with TG in that I like the variety.

That has to go on somewhere.

I suppose so, although as you mention, it's an internal thing when it does happen. I guess I'm just not interested in converting anyone to my brand of curious agnosticism.

[immoderate]

42. For the most part I agree.

I'm not out to convert anybody. I accept the fact that belief systems are individual, similar to aesthetic sensibilities. On the other hand, I think there's a normal human satisfaction that comes when someone agrees with you. And then there is that rare instance where you can take part in some insightful event.

I think transmission of knowledge is part of the human experience, and drew great satisfaction from imparting knowledge in years spent as a classroom teacher. I love it when I see something "click" in a student's mind. I'll vouch that I get a similar satisfaction being on the other end, when I can pick up some wisdom from somebody.

So I don't have any particular mission coming here, and I don't hit this forum often, but through the dynamics, things occasionally change and that interests me. Mostly, the interaction is the reward.

--IMM

[Dorian Gray]

45. Ulysses... interesting....

"If she hopes to foster reasonable and interesting discussion with people of faith concerning the danger she perceives, this is probably the place. If she hopes to convince an avalanche of the progressive faithful that their belief system is the bane of modern humanity simply by repeating that it is so...I suppose this is probably still the place, but she might also consider counseling. IMO."

HEEE!

I do have to admit... I venture here out of curiousity, in hopes that some interesting debates have been opened up. Sometimes there are some great debates or topics, but often it's the same usual suspects arguing the same argument. (And to be fair, there are some religious/Christians who "hope to convince an avalanche of the progresive NON-faithful that their NON-belief system is the bane of modern humanity simply by repeating that it is so..."

It does keep me from participating in these topics as much as I would like! Some start out really interestingly, then devolve into a debate on the minutiae of language rather than the original idea.

[ulysses]

50. oh, well yeah.

And to be fair, there are some religious/Christians who "hope to convince an avalanche of the progresive NON-faithful that their NON-belief system is the bane of modern humanity simply by repeating that it is so..."

Assuredly so. I haven't seen much of that on DU, but then I haven't been looking for it either. :)

It does keep me from participating in these topics as much as I would like!

Same here. People are going to be how they are, but sometimes this forum is a lot more boring than it needs to be. Thanks, Dorian.

[Dorian Gray]

51. No problem...

I just wanted to point out the first part because I have seen it happen here. :) (And I wanted to be fair to our Athiest friends! Because we are on the same side politically, and the last thing I want to do is alienate them!)

But, I definitely feel like the constant merry-go-round here puts me off from participating as much as I would like. When I read a topic that interests me then find that it devolves into the same old argument, I just can't be bothered to participate in the thread.

[Inland]

39. I think "bane of modern society" would be a suitable GD topic.

It would be somewhat silly and contrary to the R/T section to put The Biggest Problem or a Top Ten Biggest Problems in this section and only this section.

Of course, few make that sort of argument in GD, lest they get their ears pinned back.

[immoderate]

43. If the "bane of modern society" is religion...

...the mods would pop it over here. Hey, GD is my home turf. My ears are flopping freely. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't understand my post.

--IMM

[Dorian Gray]

46. To be fair...

I actually think that the bane of modern society is "My Super Sweet Sixteen" on MTV. I saw it for the first time tonight at my brother's house. (He had it tivoed!)

[immoderate]

48. "My Super Sweet Sixteen"

:scared: :scared: :scared:

--IMM

[Inland]

47. No, they wouldn't. Not if it were seriously approached

Someone can argue in GD that religion (or anything else) is a social problem to be remedied. But it's usually just flamebait. Flamebait gets sent here. This isn't so much the religion and theology section as a refuge, a refuge for the any blanket statments that somebody really believes but can't support, as if being subbornly wrong about the sociological impact of religion is a form of religion.

IOW, any assertion on societal woes from religion made seriously and supported can go to GD. The assertions that the religious are clinically insane are moved to R/T. It's the way it works, daily.

[immoderate]

49. "Clinically insane" overstates it a bit.

--IMM

[Inland]

40. Almost nobody responds to your points

and instead almost all are off chasing perceived slights and who did what to the native americans and censorship. Typical R/T.

[ulysses]

41. it's all good.

Actually, it's turned out to be a better thread than I thought it would when I posted it. :)