High on Death: A Texas professor searches for the human soul

[indigobusiness]

High on Death

A Texas professor searches for the human soul

"I think death is an illusion. I think death is a really nasty bad lie. I don't see any truth in the word death at all."

This is the conclusion of Pam Reynolds, a singer-songwriter. She spits out her defiance softly while recalling her vivid brush with death during an interview for the BBC documentary The Day I Died. Her near-death experience is near-boilerplate: the feelings of euphoria, the separation from the body, the rush through a dark tunnel toward a bright white light, the life review, the encounters with dead loved ones.

Yet Reynolds' experience is different. In 1991, doctors found a gargantuan aneurysm lodged at the base of her brain. In a last-ditch effort, she submitted to doctors at the Barrow Neurological Institute in Phoenix and a radical surgical procedure where her heart was stopped and her brain was shut down.

Shortly after her recovery, her doctors were baffled when she accurately described her surgery: the saw used to carve up her head, the box of saw bits held in reserve, the urgent conversations between doctors and nurses. Yet such recollections were impossible not only because her eyes were taped shut, her face shrouded and her ears plugged, but because her brain had ceased functioning.

There is a fascination with this kind of phenomena that I think we all might share. After all, we do face our mortality. Plato defines philosophy as a preparation for death. Rather than being morbid and depressing, that perspective sheds light on the importance of understanding life and death and our own personal relationship to it. Meaning can be a form of food for being and the currency of the Soul.


http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/2004-12-16/news/news.html

http://sensiblyeclectic.com/b2evolution/blogs/index.php/mainsite/2004/12/18/p1575#more1575

[Maraya1969]

1. How do you "shut down a brain?"

If you stop the blood or the oxygen supply the brain cells with die. If you keep the blood and oxygen going I can' see how they can stop the neurotransmitters from flitting back and forth between the cells.

Many times when they do brain surgery they keep the person awake because they need feedback.

I'm having a little trouble believing this one.

[rodeodance]

3. must have been a quick procedure? under 3-4 minutes?

[indigobusiness]

5. One technique is to chill the blood

and lower the body temprature to a level that stops most processes and achieves a state of suspended animation for a period long enough to complete certain procedures.

[Az]

9. Yes but that is not instant

And because time is pressing they often start the procedure before the full effect has hit. In this particular case they had progressed to the point that they were inside the brain and examining the blood vessels to see how to proceed. It is this conversation prior to the bulk of the procedure that she reports having heard. It very easily could be that she was not fully down yet.

Not insisting this is what happened. Merely positing it as an alternative to the NDE explanation so quickly being lept to here.

[Az]

8. The reason her ears were plugged

was so they could send a sound spike and get a reading from the electrogram to make sure the brain stem was still intact. The notion that her brain was "Shutdown" is false. She was in a deep anestesia to be certain. But not all senses shut down under that condition at the same time. And clearly they had expectation that her audio processing would be functional at a minimal level at the very least.

[aneerkoinos]

28. "Hypodermic cardiac arrest"

"operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life."
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

More details on the method:
http://www.cryonics.org/surgery.html

[sam sarrha]

60. i believe they remove all the blood from the brain, it shrinks and the

folds can be opened up.

[clovis29]

2. I just had a friend die. Death is more than a nasty lie. n/t

[indigobusiness]

4. From your perspective. n/t

[ret5hd]

6. and the perspective of every creature ever born...

except those that happen to be alive right now.

[indigobusiness]

13. In your opinion.

[Az]

7. Been reading on this one

Much of the claim seems to hinge on the conversations she overheard. The proponents claim that her ears were plugged with earpieces so they could send a audible sound burst to create a spike on the electrogram to ascertain that her brainstem was still intact. From this we can conclude one thing and ask another.

If the were monitoring for brain activity then we can conclude that the notion that her brain was shut down is not entirely true.

But then what of her ability to hear with earplugs in? Ever plugged your ears and still have to sing la la la not to hear a conversation. Muffled is not silenced.

I do not have enough information to comment on the saws at this time other than to conjecture that she may have been able to see them when she was wheeled into the room for prep work. From there it is not too far a leap to theorise that her mind attempted to fill in the tramatized period with bits and peaces of information it had access to from the recent short term storage memory areas. Our brains will recreate information for us given enough to extrapolate on.

Its an interesting case to be certain. It should bear much more investigation from both a skeptic perspective and a neurological one.

[indigobusiness]

12. How do you explain this one?

In another documented case, surgeons were so intrigued by this phenomenon that they placed an index card with a word printed in bold text above the operating room light-fixture. figuring if these claims of "hovering above one's body" were somehow real, the patients should be able to report the code word. The did...consistently.

I have no link. This is an easy claim to scoff at, but one that can be researched.

[trotsky]

14. LMAO

Again with the "here's an amazing claim, I don't have a link, but you can easily look it up" nonsense?

You would think after you were smacked down over that ridiculous man-with-no-brain story, you'd try a different tactic, but I guess not.

Find a link. You brought it up, it's YOUR responsibility to document it.

[indigobusiness]

16. I'd prefer

you disbelieved it.

[trotsky]

17. I'd prefer you document your outrageous claims.

Since that's apparently not going to happen, I'll just make sure to point it out to everyone.

[indigobusiness]

18. Complete Idiot's Guide to Near-Death Experiences

In case you truly don't wish to live in ignorance.



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0028632346/ref%3Dnosim/neardeathexpe-20/002-0082748-3084823

[trotsky]

20. What a deal!

P.T. Barnum proved correct once again. Which is more than can be said for you, I guess. By the way, why do you keep taking me off your Ignore list? You really do like me, don't you?

[Az]

22. I do recall this one as being debunked. Sorry no link

But IIRC this one turned out to be an urban legend. I will look around for what info I have on it. I am sure I have something somewhere on this one.

[moobu2]

38. That would be undeniable proof of an after life.

Don't you think such an amazing discovery would have made it to all the medical text books? to all the news shows? to all the pulpits? YES! And you wouldn't have to look very hard to find the documentation.

That simply did not happen, I can assure you.

[Cronus Protagonist]

10. I remember most of what went on during my nasal surgery

Deviated septum. I heard him scraping the tissue away-couldn't feel the pain, just the vibrations in my head. And I thought to myself, "why is he doing it with that crude instrument... don't they have anything better in the 21st century". I also heard other muffled sounds that I presume were the nurses or a conversation near the door.

I didn't call it a "death experience", though.

[Az]

11. The mind is quite adept at creating images

Particularly of things thrust into your head and scraping around on the inside.

People remember all manner of things from many different levels of anestesia. And their minds can muddle all manner of things together from the experience.

[trotsky]

15. Oh, but Az...

we MUST assume a supernatural explanation until it's disproven. That's now standard procedure, didn't you hear?

[indigobusiness]

19. Out-of-Body Experiences

Out-of-Body Experiences

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About 6% of the patients interviewed reported having an out-of-body experience (OBE). Their perception was that their consciousness was separate from their body, and they could see their body from a vantage point somewhere above. Understandably, severe pain was generally the trigger for one of these episodes. One patient had this experience during an episode of severe chest pain, another during child birth. Somehow, having an OBE allows the patient to feel free from pain.

The downside of this experience is that many patients report having a distinct fear of being unable to get back into their body, and general confusion about what was happening. While they were momentarily free from their pain, they still felt connected to their world and maintained an interest and longing to continue in it.

Parapsychologists have studied out-of-body experiences for years to try to establish if a part of consciousness really does leave the body. Subjects who report being able to have out-of-body experiences, (sometimes known as "astral projection") have been studied in controlled laboratories. They were asked to go out of their bodies and locate objects in different rooms or places. The parapsychologists study how frequently the subjects accurately identified these objects. In general "gifted" subjects did better than subjects who were taught how to go out of their bodies. Most of the research in inconclusive at this time.

http://www.rnceus.com/uncon/unframe.html
https://www.rnceus.com/secured/rnceus_exam.asp?exam_id=15

[trotsky]

21. Simply a lack of oxygen to the brain.

Why else would the sensation be duplicated in fighter pilots who are undergoing Hi-G physical tests?

http://www.melvinmorse.com/ARC/N0001.htm

He discovered that at the end of their runs, after the pilots lost consciousness, had seizures, loss of muscle tone, and theoretical stoppage of blood flow in their brains, then they would have "dreamlets".

These dreamlets sound suspiciously like NDes, including out of body perceptions, and "I was on a desert island looking up at the sun, it was very pleasant."

Key phrase in YOUR excerpt:

Most of the research is inconclusive at this time.

But naturally, by the indigobusiness line of thinking, we should assume it's true until disproven. :eyes:

[aneerkoinos]

27. Frankly

That (lack of oxygen) is quite asinine hypothesis.

OBE is often, but not exclusively connected to NDE and sleep-paralyzis, and it seems to be something that can be also learned (with moderate success) by relaxation and visualization techniques.

It takes a huge leap of faith to claim that lack of oxygen is the reason in all these various situations, without empirical data to back that. Your question "Why else" is just very poor logic and bad science.

And, BTW, what part of the word inconclusive you don't understand? It certainly don't mean "debunked".

[trotsky]

31. "Leap of faith"?

Every person who has ever died, ultimately died from the same thing: a lack of oxygen to the brain.

It is the most reasonable explanation that OBEs/NDEs/etc. are simply a result of the brain not getting the oxygen it needs, and putting together the scraps of data it's able to process into a form that "makes sense." It's what our brain does.

Is your position that we have to prove the supernatural explanation is false before we can believe the natural one is true?

If so, you are hardly in a position to call what I said "bad science." :eyes:

[aneerkoinos]

32. Yep

I'm quite aware of the confabulatory faculty of ouf minds, but you seem to be happily blind (as a normal human being) to those effects in you in regards to your own fabulation and leaps of faith in support or your materialist dogma, which no doubt rises out of some psychological needs.

Science is a rigorous practice, and the first reguirement of theory is to take notice of all the available data, where-ever it might lead, as free as possible from any bias. You haven't shown any inclination at even to look at data, you just want to jump to your preordained conclusion.

You wanna believe in your oxygen-hypothesis, then show it, show how lack of oxygen is present at all OBEs, and why not all cases where there is lack of oxygen produce an OBE. The burden of proof is yours, calling it the "most reasonable explanation" is just inane, nothing but poor rhetorics.

>>Is your position that we have to prove the supernatural explanation is false before we can believe the natural one is true?<<

This argument is beyond stupid, besides being a total strawman it presupposes that you know what is natural and supernatural - which are just hollow and stupid metaphysical consepts. In the realm of science we speak about established theories and empirical anomalies they can't explain, "natural" and "supernatural" don't enter scientific discussion nor should they.

[trotsky]

33. Great! In that case, what "evidence" do we have right now?

Please, list out the overwhelming evidence that indicates we have something going on with OBEs/NDEs that cannot be explained by known science in the form of oxygen deprivation. You apparently consider yourself to be a perfect scientist, far above us mere mortals, so I am forced to assume you have data that the rest of us slobs do not. Will you please share?

[aneerkoinos]

36. Spare your sarcasm

Or please at least put some effort into it to make it more amusing.

And don't try shift the burden of proof, it's on your shoulders and so far I've been doing all the foot-work.

But since I'm such a nice guy, here's some more hints in addition to those to be found in my previous posts (including the one you didn't see writing the above):

- Oxygen depravation is just one of the theoretically possible neurochemical explanations, and not necessarily even the strongest candidate from materialistic approach.

- OBEs occure in variety of situations, and there's no evident reason to suppose oxygen depravation when person is e.g. having the experience while peacefully lying on his own bead.


What comes to my position, I simply have no problem saying that I don't know the explanation, while keeping open & critical mind about the available evidence and various hypothesis. I'm not the one here who feels the need to believe in a poor excuse of theory just for debunking purposes.

[trotsky]

37. Thanks for your insight!

I appreciate it! :hi:

[aneerkoinos]

34. Oxygen and NDE

Here's bit more what Blackmore says about oxygen hypothesis:

"NDEs usually begin with OBEs; near death, the brain is cut off from

outside information. Blackmore also explores how the NDE progresses

beyond an OBE.<57> NDEs have occurred in people who were not not

dying; so while something in the dying process triggers a tunnel-image

and so forth, it is not something unique about death. A good

candidate is oxygen-deprivation. Oxygen-starved neurons in the visual

cortex fire in abnormal patterns, producing effects seen as concentric

rings or spirals. Even gradually increasing electrical noise in the

visual cortex can produce the basic elements of an approaching tunnel

of light."

http://www.danmahony.com/Blackmore.htm


As you see, here it refers only to the usual tunnel-like experience of NDE, but not as explanation to the wider phenomenon of OBE, which can, among other things but not allways, be triggered by severe physical stress, possibly including lack of oxygen, even though I've not seen any suggestion for how oxygen mechanisms in the brain are supposed to be related to these phenomena.

None of this comes even close to even attempting to explain OBE (and probably related phenomenon of lucid dreaming) by lack of oxygen in the brain. Seems like you're on your own with your hypothesis, pal. Good luck!

[trotsky]

35. Okey dokey!

Thanks for your input! :hi:

[indigobusiness]

39. Tell that to those who died at Nagasaki and Hiroshima ground zero

"Every person who has ever died, ultimately died from the same thing: a lack of oxygen to the brain."

You make the most curious assertions.

[trotsky]

40. So am I on or off your ignore list?

You just can't get enough of me. Are you some kind of stalker?

Anyway, yes, even those who were vaporized died because their brains didn't get oxygen, if you want to get technical about it.

[indigobusiness]

43. Their brains WERE oxygen.

If, by that example you don't see the folly of your assertion, I leave it to you to find others. Your point made no sense anyway.

I can't get enough of your comedic value. I'm growing quite fond of you (in a self-flagellating sort of way), though stalking is not my bag...you are always good for a laugh.

[aneerkoinos]

47. So if

nuked persons didn't die from lack of oxygen but instant oxygen poisoning (FLASH), did they have OBE?

[indigobusiness]

51. They died by vaporization. Annihilation.

They most definitely had an OBE - Obliterated Body Experience.

I'm reminded of the Geshe's lesson involving self:

Cut off a toe, are you still you? Two toes? Two feet? Two legs? Are you still you? What are you?

[Az]

52. This particular branch is getting a bit morbid n/t

[indigobusiness]

53. Hardly.

[Az]

54. Hardcore

Aren't ya? ;)

[trotsky]

57. Hey, I love to entertain!

But the fondness... ewww. Please, keep that to yourself.

It's really quite simple. One way or the other, the only way you can die is for your brain to be deprived of oxygen. Even if someone is decapitated, they do not die instantly. If you're vaporized, it happens awfully quickly, and it's because your brain cells got vaporized too, but still, it's ultimately because they didn't get oxygen. I don't know why you have difficulty understanding this, but if you can laugh about your ignorance, I guess it just proves the old saying about that and bliss.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aneerkoinos]

41. Hey indigo

It's not very good sportmanship trying to kick the one one the ground, especially when that one has shown very good sportmanship about his defeat in this round in the game of rational argumentation.

Especially when this time it's your argument that sucks. :)

[indigobusiness]

42. He trips me out with his comedy. It's irresistible....

...intentional or not.

When I kick to the ground, there is no trying. Don't provoke me, you heathen would-be Greek. My sportsmanship won't be besmirched by the likes of you, or your ilk.

My argument sucks, or my example? Consider the intended audience. I have other arguments. And other examples. Now, kiss my ring.

[aneerkoinos]

44. Both, as allways!

"Argument and "example", both being absolutely irrelevant and absolutely irritating!

And considering the intended audience, he just APPRECIATED my INSIGHT with WAWING SMILEYS (obviously you know I have a very soft spot for such niceties, cause you constantly try to poke it), so he's now cool in my books and my newest threadpal (at least until the next battle). So if you want to win your way back into favour of His Holiness The Most Egotistic ThreadKing, humble thy brown-nosed good self and smell my underpants!

[indigobusiness]

45. I can smell them from here...

but they serve you as poorly as your ill-gotten liasons.

[aneerkoinos]

46. Presumably

you are familiar with Castaneda, the art of stalking and crucial tactic of yelding, aka spiritual aikido. So let's cut the crap, you (pretend to - I didn't notice!) bend to my will, (pretend to - I didn't notice!) grant me the victory, so my Self-Importance grows and your diminishes (and you trick steal my energy for yourself - I didn't notice!).

OK?

OK, sure.


Your Surrender has been accepted. I'm the Winner!!!

[indigobusiness]

49. All you've accomplished is clearly confirming you really are quite mad.

But, sadly, you've deeply disappointed me along the way by taking the loser's path of preoccupation with "winning".

Go back to your butt-sniffing, ass-kissing friend. You deserve each other.

Zorba would not be pleased. Neither would Carlos.

[aneerkoinos]

55. Was there ever any doubt?

>>But, sadly, you've deeply disappointed me along the way by taking the loser's path of preoccupation with "winning".<<

Whaddaya mean? War is Peace, Truth is Lie, Sex is Good, Loosing is Winning? Sure, dude, whatever.

Mans gotta do what mans gotta do, said Jeebusbubba. If I didn't accept that preoccupation, it might fall on some innocent soul who can't handle the loosers path, someone like you. And I would hate to see you fail and stumble even on the loosers path, it's the path for real men, not little girls...

>>Go back to your butt-sniffing, ass-kissing friend. You deserve each other.<<

SNIFF, thanks! But I don't really deserve anything... :(

[indigobusiness]

58. You won't find me

on the losers path. It's all yours...you've earned your dominant place there, and you damn sure do deserve it. False modesty doesn't become you.

[aneerkoinos]

62. Modesty?

Hah! How keen-sighted, it is truly all false, just like my feigned spelling problems. I'm lost from the beginning, by letting you believe you caught me! I'm the Jeebusbubba, spilling my blood on the loosers path so you can feel like a Winner! That's how I gain my reward and become absolutely loose!

What, You were talking about losers path, not loosers - all yours, you lout! :)

Can't find you? Hell, even you yourself can't find you! But I can certainly see you sitting there very confused, wondering which path was which, going in circle...

[indigobusiness]

63. Degenerated to name-calling now, have you?

There is only one path.

[aneerkoinos]

64. No

I've degenerated to alliteration.

Only one path, says the loony lout lounging in the loo! Loosen up, flush, flood, flow!

[indigobusiness]

65. Drink...

deeply.

[Az]

23. I have had OBE myself

And I assure you that I did not leave my body. At the time of first recollection it was quite convincing that I was experiencing the event as my mind was suggesting. But on further reflection I put together what had happened.

As to parapsychologists I would suggest reading the work of Susan Blackmoore. She started out as a proponent of such thinking and has since come to the conclusion that it is more often the miss handling of the experimenters and desire to find such things that leads to their discovery rather than any actual presense.

Not saying its impossible. Just that the evidence supporting such a claim is more often inuendo rather than hard emperical evidence. Its certainly worth invesigating if for no other reason than to better understand the nature of the mind.

[aneerkoinos]

26. Susan Blackmoore

It seems she is projecting her own scientific failure and the reasons why she failed (too high egotistic ambitions). But despite her infatuation with meme-theory, I think she is (was?) one of the more OK types in the skeptic movement.

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/index.htm
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/anomalistics/skeptic_research.htm

[Az]

29. If your gonna backhand compliment someone at least take the rings off

Sheesh. :evilgrin:

[aneerkoinos]

30. LOL

Thanks, you made me laugh. :)

But to my knowledge she uses polite language and does not knowingly lie and misrepresent (at least not much above what is appropriate for persuasion purposes), unlike some other more vehement fellows at CSISOP. And I'm sympathetic to all practitioners of Zen. :)


Edit:
Here's Blackmore's article on NDE
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/si91nde.html

Some interesting discussion, the oxyzen hypothesis seems totally unvalidated (and not presented strongly).

[Stunster]

24. Brains and consciousness

The mere fact that all such unusual human experiences appear to involve some brain event/process or other does not prove that they
are non-veridical. After all, all our veridical experiences involve some brain event/process! We would not then infer that every experience was therefore illusory, or non-veridical, would we?

So saying that such-and-such an OBE or NDE involves some brain/event process should not automatically rule them out from nonetheless being veridical.

Millions of years ago, hominid brains evolved in such a way as to enable humans to experience watching a bird fly in the sky, the taste of ice cream, the sound of music, the sound of words, the emotion of fear in the face of wild animals seeking to eat us, etc. That fact says PRECISELY NOTHING about the veridicality of those experiences. Why should a qualitatively similar fact say any more than precisely nothing about the veridicality of OBEs, NDEs, or religious experiences?

It strikes me that this type of "the brain does it" argument to ruling out a non-materialist possibility is utterly idiotic. It also has a name. It is called the Genetic Fallacy.

It might be objected that we never have any human experiences at all without brains, and hence ought to conclude that in the absence of brains, no experience is possible. But one might as well say that we never have any human experiences at all without there being persons or souls or conscious spirits or minds to have them, and hence ought to conclude that unless there's a person or soul or conscious spirit or mind, matter on its own will not generate any experience. The argument cuts both ways.

In other words, it's rationally illegitimate to presuppose the truth of materialism in assessing the nature of OBEs, NDEs, and religious experiences, just as much as it would be to presuppose the truth of supernaturalism or some non-supernaturalistic form of spiritualism.

One can't settle the mind-body problem by fiat. And, as a matter of fact, it's a problem that continues to rage with controversy within contemporary mainstream philosophy.

[Az]

25. A cave man watching a bird is not under extreme stress

Even then the experience of observing something is not transmitted immediately to our mind. There is a measurable gap between incident and experience of it. So yes, all our experiences are in fact illusory to an extent in that our bodies and sensory organs must be impacted by an event, transmit the informat, and the finally have it translated in our brain to the congitive portions for us to experience.

Over this flow of information many filters and points of interference can arise. Consider listening to a conversation in a crowded room. Your senses are actually picking up a cacophony of sound. But your brain is able to filter out the specific conversation you are focusing on. All other sound moves into the background. You are not experiencing reality but instead a modified version that your brain creates.

As to OBEs and NDEs these are experienced during alters states of mind. NDEs in particular occurr when an individual is close to death by definition. Depending on the factors bringing this about there can be collasal interference on the perception of the brain. Entire systems can be shorting out. Our senses confused beyond any hope of reconciling reality. But through this chaos our brain tries to make sense of what reaches it. Some amazing images can be created by this storm of chaos.

[H2O Man]

48. "Even Richard Nixon

has got a soul." -- N.Y.

[indigobusiness]

50. Nixon had a NLE - Near Life Experience

Soul? Maybe.

[H2O Man]

56. I'm not sure .....

if it's in a Neil Young song, it seems like it almost has to be true.

[indigobusiness]

66. Nixon would be calm seas as president, today.

Soul, or not.

[sam sarrha]

61. from what i gather from Buddhism is that there is no soul, but there is a

whats called a 'Mind Streem'..

it seems the mind stream has an absolutely pure nature, but gets polluted with negativity, Karma from destructive emotions etc.. which causes it to grasp onto another life form..relative to its 'condition'...

i have had 'serious' out of body experiences.. no big deal, but then i grew up in a family of clairvoyants.. it could be a shock for a rigid, scientific or religious mind to really see how things work contrary to their belief system..