Atheists, I need a Little Help

[true_notes]

Hey Fellow Atheists,

Ok heres my situation. 21 years old, employed making 30,000 a year. Married to a beautiful woman, have a kid who is 5 months old and pretty much living comfortably.

I turned Atheist at the age of 17 once I could read and understand things and recognize my rights as a human being. I have not been to a church since. Just like that I lost faith, because in my heart I know it is only a man-driven ploy to take masses into war and for profiteering.

However, here as of late, I feel as if I might lapse because of my family. My wife is urging me to go to church, but it is against my beliefs to go to church, because in reality I loathe christianity and want nothing to do with it. I see what they are doing to the world.

SO, I as a man stand alone in my beliefs. I am a responisible Atheist, I keep to myself and educate myself on the world around me so that I am a better man, but I think my wife is beginning a war on religion in my own home. How can I win without giving in to her?

[Mr Rabble]

1. There are no winners in war.

This might be the time to have a long talk to your wife about your beliefs./2 cents/

[true_notes]

5. Well you see

We have had that long talk pre and post marriage. She understands me, and I understand her. I do not mind her going to church and taking our baby, but I refuse to go. We've had that talk many times.

I know from prior experience that a father not going to church with his wife and kid makes him look immoral and like a shitbag, which I am not. I'm a normal Joe.

[tavalon]

12. And how it looks is a problem for you

why?

[true_notes]

15. Well Let's Put It This Way

I am ridiculed at work for my beliefs. I have no friends outside of family and wife. I can't get anything done in the community without my religion being brought up, and I'm only 21 for F*** sake. It's downright frusterating.

But on the other hand I'm a strong assed individual. I stand up for what is right, and nothing else.

I guess I have a long road to go down. Damn, I'm melting tonight.

[IndependentVoice]

17. Atheists

Are the most hated group in the country. Not just religious non religious (whatever you want to say)groups but all of them, Racial Sex, Sexual oriented, atheists are THE most hated, that is why. At 16 I was recieving death threats, from christians, love and tolerance go out the christian window yet again...

[patrice]

18. Because they are a threat.

They precipitate doubt. And the reason that IS a problem is because many people of faith don't have faith. They reveal their own weakness and doubt by attacking atheism. They don't have faith, what they have often some sort of mutual emotional-masturbation society, a.k.a. addiction. Anything that interferes with the quid pro quo going on is a threat.

No child should be a part of that.

[eallen]

2. That's a tough situation. Perhaps you can explain to your wife...

That you can't choose to believe in something. That the very act of choice she is encouraging is, in your eyes, nothing more than intellectual dishonesty.

Of course, that's an intellectual response. I have no idea how that would affect your marital relationship. Which is what makes the situation tough.

Good luck.

[wtmusic]

3. Similar situation

you are going to have a tough row to hoe, my friend, and it has all to do with your kid.

If you want to avoid having your kid programmed as a biblethumper, insist on being able to present the idea that NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE WHETHER THERE IS A GOD or whether JESUS WAS THE SON OF GOD. And be sure this idea is reminded to him/her until after the age of five.

My kid went to a protestant preschool, and I went and picked him up for 20 minutes every day while the other kids went to chapel. Then I brought him back. I don't regret it for a moment. Now he's eleven and a disciple of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (no kidding).

[IndependentVoice]

Hmmm

I'm in a similar situation. 17 just transfered to a catholic school. I'm very open about being an atheist, but I don't flaunt it. I get many people who are urging me to join youth group and come, and my father will not back down, as he is a very serious/borderline fundie. I think there is nothing you can do but try to explain to your wife (I'm sure you have already though) and tell her how you have not asked her to sacrifice going to church because you repect what she believes. A good question might also be, why are you asking now? If you have a 5 month old then you must have been married for some time already, so why is she now confronting you about this?

[Divernan]

24. Sounds like some 3rd party is influencing your wife

Her minister, church-going friends or parents? I think your first step is to sit down with her and find out why she has changed her mind NOW. She accepted your beliefs before; the burden is on her to explain changing the terms of your marital agreement now. You guys are really so young - only 19 or so when you got together and had the pre-marriage discussion? One of the main reasons marriages of younger people fail is that they really haven't finished "growing up", ie forming their opinions & values - it's a function of life experience/learning over time. And as they continue growing and maturing, they may grow apart. Sound to me like your wife is quite dependent on her church - and that it is more important to her than you are.

I bet someone is using your child as leverage on her - that she would be a bad parent to let her child grow up outside their particular church, and that an atheist parent is a BAD influence in the home.

If she is a member of a mega church, and you are the prime bread winner in the family, the pastor/business manager rightly understands that if they want to get their grubby paws on 10 percent of the family income, they have to bring you into the fold. Hallelujah!

[iamjoy]

4. Don't Blame Christianity

I mean, I see that so much evil is done in its name, but some good is too. I think too many people pervert what they believe is the word of God, and only want to do the bad stuff, not the good.

But anyway, try calmly telling your wife that you do not believe in God and feel it would be hypocrtical of you to go to Church when you do not believe. Tell her that you respect her faith even if you don't share it (I hope you respect her faith), and that she should respect your beliefs too.

I wouldn't recommend making negative statements about religion to your wife, this will only frustrate her. But make sure she understands that one can be a moral person without religion. In part, you do this by adopting the "Golden Rule" which Christians so often attribute to their savior, you know "Do Unto Others..."

[true_notes]

13. Good Advice n/m

[lvx35]

25. Yeah, that's exactly right...

...there is a flip side of this coin for theists, which is that this guy doesn't belong in a church if he doesn't really believe. Churches in America are filled with people their for the social networking and so forth, and it really doesn't do anything for anybody.

[OwnedByFerrets]

6. Wow, I wish I had a magic pill I could send you......

because I can only hope that things turn out alright. Maybe there are others here who have worked their way thru these issues, but I dont know how it can be done without one of the parties feeling "wronged". Unfortunately religious arguments never involve logic or I would suggest that. I sincerely hope you can work it out.

[patrice]

7. Teach your child yourself about ALL religions.

Fairly, no loaded language, but cover them all, from an academic perspective. Objectively.

You both can teach your child about ethics and how ethics and being ethical doesn't require a church.

Tell your wife if it, whatever it is, can't survive outside of a specialized hothouse environment, it must not be real.

Your wife doesn't have to stop believing. But Don't back down. She will have to become more clear in her faith, instead of delegating that clarity to some "holy" person; it will be good for her to teach the child herself.

Your child CAN benefit from having the best of both worlds: rationalism and real spirituality.

Engage you child in ongoing discussion of these issues as early as possible.

[The Traveler]

8. It is not a contest to be won

It is a matter of being, of finding your right relationship with the world around you. For some, that means the path of faith. For others, like yourself, it means a different direction.

I would recommend being a loving and respectful husband. One can respect the faith of another without sharing it. When pressed, gently point out you cannot change your beliefs like one changes clothes. Give her what you yourself want ... respect and affection and the liberty to grow in the chosen direction.

[electricray]

21. Great thoughts

:applause:
:headbang:

[tavalon]

9. Don't fight

Let her have her opinion and you have yours. You don't have to go to church because she's badgering you. Tell her she is welcome to go to church but you aren't going to go. If she has a problem with that, you both need to recognize that it's her problem. Don't let the maxim "the two shall become as one" happen. You are two individuals who have chosen to partner with one another not two people destined to become clones.

Now, as far as your own self growth, you would do well to understand what your knee jerk reaction is around Christianity, not because you are right or wrong but because as long as you "loathe" it, it owns you instead of the other way around.

So, you want to win the war? Don't fight it to start with.

BTW, as a necessary disclaimer, I am not an atheist, I'm a pagan. It doesn't change my psychological advice but I figured you ought to know.

[true_notes]

16. Your Saying It Owns Me...

Because you think everything I do I do for the downfall of Xianity, right?

[tavalon]

22. Nope

Look at your reply to my other post to you. It owns you. You sound completely defined by your atheism and antichristianity. Try a new way of being. Live and let live and the world won't fight you so hard. Most of the people I work with are christians, some bordering on zealots. Most don't know I am a practicing pagan, not because I actively hide it but because I don't make it part of my platform. My religion is part of my non-work life just as my unusual partnership choice is part of my non-public life. Would they be freaked if they knew I was a priestess and was once in a coven and that I currently have a multipartner communal living arraingement? Likely. Will they find out about these things? They may or they may not. Ain't no thing to me.

When people at work start talking about Jesus, I'm okay with it. I don't join in but neither do I ridicule. Someone tried recently to discern what my beliefs are and was told that I'm a highly spiritual person and that while I have no problem with others discussing their religion at work, I don't choose to do so. End of conversation and no hard feelings on either side. How am I able to do this? Because I no longer have a problem with christianity. It isn't my path but it isn't a path that bothers me. Neither is atheism - I feel no need to try to convince someone who doesn't believe in a deity of some sort that they should because actually, they have the right and responsibility to themselves to believe whatever they believe. I don't have the corner on that market.

Does that make more sense?

[Union Thug]

10. I don't know how to respond, except to say that anyone who worries about

winning is wasting their life.

I have been in a similar situation and all that I could do is say that I respect thier beliefs and they should show me the same. If your wife can't do that, I really don't know what the answer might be.

That you mention 'lapsing' is interesting. Every now and then I wish that I had something to believe in and yearn for the kind of absolute comfort that religion offers. But then I have to be honest with myself... any such move would be nothing more than an attempt at tricking myself. It would be dishonest. Further, religion takes the edge off political perspective. If you believe that there is pie in the sky when you die, you are much more willing to accept suffering in this world.

Don't lapse. Stay true to yourself. Respect your wife's beliefs and don't, under any circumstances, bring up religion in conversation!!! :-)

[niyad]

11. I am assuming your wife knew you are an atheist when you married, am I

right? in that case, you might consider asking her why your non-belief was acceptable when you married, but not now. perhaps you could point out to her that you grant her the courtesy of her beliefs, and would truly appreciate it if she would grant you the same.

do you know whether this pressure is coming solely from her, or is she, perhaps, being persuaded by family members? they might need a talking to.

[opihimoimoi]

14. Get a copy of WHEN GOD WAS A WOMAN Merlin Stone

16 years of research before ublication

the Bib is huge...much credibility

You will love it and I hope....so does your wife.

[electricray]

19. $.02

I wonder if it might help to discuss the difference between spirituality and faith with your wife. In my experience as a wild-eyed wanderer, I have found that many Christians fear for me because they see me as empty and without a soul. They believe that every person fears the emptiness that organized religion helps them fill. My parents raised me to question everything and I have never been to a day of church that I haven't been paid for (musician). I am now a 31 year old father of two boys and I have a strong spirituality that I derived from my life rather than from a series of weekly lectures that preached fear of an imagined deity.

I don't know a whole lot about Atheism, I only know what I see posted around here every now and then. I tend to believe that there is an amazing volume of great thinkers and that the literature or theology that can and has developed around these thinkers can be used as a tool on anyone's journey. For that reason I could attend any service and take from it what I feel is relevant to my own unique humanity. In your case I don't think that the underlying discussion is whether or not you attend church or not, rather what you are expected to be or espouse as a result of your attendance. If your wife just expects you to attend service, but remain true to yourself and honest with your child about what your true beliefs are, perhaps you could find a way to make the services a positive experience for you. But if she believes that you are going to undergo some metamorphosis and start quoting scripture, then the issue is more complex.

I wish you the best. Congratulations on your new baby.

[NYC]

20. If appearance is important

(to neighbors, etc., not your wife) find something to do on Sunday mornings, so that over a period of time, people will think you don't attend church because you are otherwise occupied on Sunday mornings.

There is no reason for everyone to know you are an atheist. Mow an old woman's lawn or something. Let strangers assume you are too busy for church.

It may make things easier on your wife if her fellow church goers ask where you are. She needn't say you don't want to attend; she can say you are helping an elderly neighbor.

[valerief]

23. Is she worth playing pretend for the rest of your life? We play

pretend with our bosses at work, because we get a paycheck. We play pretend with certain people we dislike socially so that we can keep the peace with other people we do like. Is she worth your investment pretense? If so, suck it up and pretend. Maybe you can spend your time reading in church as a pasttime. If she's not worth the pretense, say ciao, because it's not worth the stress on both of you.

[neebob]

26. Instead of treating it like a contest

Just point out that she's trying to change the rules of the relationship and it's not cool. Why'd she marry you in the first place if she wanted a husband who goes to church? She clearly does, or she wouldn't be asking you to go. So why didn't she inform you of this fact before you were married?

This is her doing, and it illustrates why marriage is so often such hard work. Instead of asking you to change to fit her vision, your wife needs to realize that she created the problem and think about what she can do to solve it.

Don't assume I'm a man because of the bob. I'm a woman, and I understand how this happens because I once married a man who didn't fit my vision. My vision was a perfectly normal one that no one in their right mind would say was unreasonable, but the fact is he wasn't fitting it before we were married and I married him anyway. That makes it my mistake. I tried to change the rules, and then I was surprised that it didn't work and blamed my now longtime ex-husband for forcing me to divorce him.

Your wife is trying to get you to do something unnatural that you didn't do before marrying her, and she knew you didn't do it and has no right to ask you to do now.

I see women doing this all the time - more often than men, I think, and it's stupid and wrong. If ya want a particular kind of partner, wait for someone who fits the description instead of grabbing the first person who's willing to be your partner and then trying to fashion that person into something that fits the description.

[Realityhack]

33. Good advice.

To OP:
It sounds like you had what amounted to a 'DMZ' around religion. You didn't ask her not to go to church and she didn't ask you to go.
Which seems reasonable.

Clearly something has changed. As the previous post points out she is changing the ground-rules. You definitely need to address this as just letting it slide will probably poison the relationship. ‘Just pretending’ about an issue that you feel about this strongly (as one poster recommended) will IMO almost certainly poison the relationship, most likely to the breaking point in the long run. I would strongly recommend against it.

You mention having a relatively young child, as well as a lot of social pressure on you from the community. It is possible that she is coming under increasing pressure (self induced or external) as a result. Find out what is driving it.

Wither it is an internal change in her expectation or ideal view of what you ‘should’ be like vs. increasing external pressure or wearing down from external pressure will make a big difference in what solution/s may work. The previous poster make a VERY good point about this.

Make sure you let her know that you do not feel it would be appropriate (as seems to be the case) for you to ask her not to go to church or otherwise deny what she believes. And that you see her requests as unreasonable for the same reasons.

Try not to see this in terms of ‘winning’ but in terms of arriving at a mutual understanding that includes (at least) your minimum comfort zone on the issue. It sounds like in the long run going to church with her would be an unacceptable ‘compromise’ from your point of view. Find out wither there is common ground where your not going is acceptable to her without violating her minimum comfort level.

Perhaps there are actions which you can take that you would find acceptable that would ease any external pressure on her.

I would also recommend taking a long term approach. Think about when your child is older. When they are 10,14,16 what will happen? Will they be given the choice or will it be ok for her to require they still attend church (IF they don’t want to)? This seems like it will be very important to work out and it may be important to address early if you are to continue a healthy relationship.

I wish you luck.

[bananas]

27. "How can I win without giving in to her?"

If it wasn't religion, you'd have this power struggle over something else.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

36. Words of wisdom, bananas.

Words of wisdom.

[and-justice-for-all]

28. Its called mutual respect....

Just because your married does not mean you have to do things you have no desire to do; If you want todo something your wife does not want to do you should have the means to say "Okay." without having to not do it just because she does not want to...

You should not have to sacrific what you believe to be true for anybody elses sake, even those you love. My lover would never think to ask me something me to do something that he knows I feel strongly against. He is more then welcome to go to Church with his mother if he wishes, but he know not to even ask me to go. I would probably end up in a interagating the Preacher or debate him to death....

[hunter]

30. You've got to be kidding...

Just because your married does not mean you have to do things you have no desire to do???

:rofl:

My wife: Let's paint the family room.

Me: Okay.

My wife: What color?

Me: I don't know. There's a whole mess of paint in the garage. We can mix up something nice.

My wife: Stop kidding around, let's go look at colors...

Mind you, I was not kidding. I'm sort of indifferent to colors. Before I met my wife and I used to fix up cheap apartments and we'd paint everything "Navajo White." The guy I worked for bought the stuff in five gallon buckets. I've also known painters who have four colors they use for cheap rentals -- a bucket they pour all their white and off-white remnants into, and similar buckets for redddish, bluish, and greenish-yellowish paints. Never the same color twice, but it doesn't matter, it covers the walls, and the really funny thing is people will think you put some thought into it.

More than that, looking at paint colors at the paint store is torture for me. My wife will hold out two samples that are both basically light brown, and say "which do you like better?"

:shrug: :think:

"Um that one..."

"You do???? I think it's a little too red."

Eventually she finds a color that she enjoys and that's what makes me happy. The actual torture of finding the color is no big deal, and who knows, maybe someday I find a color I like much more than the others. (It could happen...)

[and-justice-for-all]

31. Nope, not kidding....

I would not ask my husband to do things I know he does want to do, I goto alot of concerts and he isnt into going unless its something he really likes. Concerts are my thing away from him, MY TIME with my friends...Its one thing to paint a room, its your home, but going to church is something worth putting your foot down about.

I went through that long period of having to be together all the time and it just wears on ya, it did me and now we can each go and do things we enjoy seperately. We have together time 99% of the time, have been for the last 13.5years...

[hunter]

41. There is paint, and then there are concerts...

Paint is something you share in the household. It's not something that's outside the home. Every day you're gonna live with that paint.

Yeah, I guess I was making a metaphor about church... ;)

My wife and I (married 18 years) have a lot of separate interests. She has very little interest in computers, or bare-knuclked politics, and some of my friends make her crazy. And it goes the other way to, some of her interests and friends make me crazy.

So far as church goes, I see couples handle it various ways. My parent's way (and they have been married nearly 50 years now) was that my mom was in charge of our explicit religious upbringing (going to church, etc.) and my dad quietly maintained the implicit spirituality of the household, pretty much irregardless of whatever religious madness my mom brought home -- for example the Jehovah's Witnesses. He didn't undercut her, he didn't argue with her, he didn't go behind her back with me or my siblings... he didn't play any kinds of games at all, and frankly, I have no idea how he did that... but he always supported my mom in her religious explorations while he himself maintained some kind of inner faith that was unshakable.

When my mom left the Jehovah's Witnesses, it was not because of my dad had put his foot down, it was because she'd grown in a different direction, and that my mom and dad as a couple were actively developing a spirituality they both could share.

My wife and I have built a household that is, for the most part, liberal U.S. Catholic. My wife is Catholic, our kids are Catholic, and I myself am "mostly Catholic." Maybe in a couple of hundred years the Church will be at a place where I could be entirely Catholic, but it's not there yet. As a practical matter I'm caught out in the schism, but it doesn't bother me too much.

The religious framework for our relationship was established early, before my wife and I were married. I think before I met my wife I always figured I'd be married either barefoot on the beach, with fireworks and skinny dipping, or maybe in the Orthodox Church like "My Big Fat Greek Wedding." (It could've gone either way.) I didn't figure I'd have a big Catholic wedding, especially since my mom's religious journey when I was a kid had started out as her very strong reaction against the Catholic Church. (She'd wanted to be a nun, but she also worked in Hollywood...) My wife is an enthusiastic Catholic, she sang in the choir, she is a strong supporter of various Social Justice issues, etc., and this enthusiasm is one of the things I love about her. I couldn't dream of not supporting her Faith.

I had some small crisis of my own faith while I was first dating her, I was thinking "Oh dear, it looks like I'm going to be Catholic..." but that feeling didn't last long. Pretty soon I was going to Catholic Mass and singing in the choir, which is sort of funny, because I can't really sing.

I can't really be Catholic either, but it's not a big deal. I've never felt uncomfortable in church, any church, maybe because I'm not at all uncertain about my own spirituality. I don't ever feel like I'm going to be infected by some alien faith if I go to the "worng" church. Maybe I get that gift from my dad. I can't imagine not going to Mass with my wife and kids because it is something we all share as a family. And we talk about religion all of the time, and our teenagers are comfortable with it, and happily argue Theology with anyone who is willing to take them on, including their grandparents.

Is it hypocrisy to belong to a religious tradition you can't fully support? I don't think so. It's not hypocrisy to call yourself a citizen of the U.S.A. no matter your political beliefs.

There are a few conflicts our family has with the Church, and we are very open about these with our children. Probably the foremost -- and our kids have known this all their lives -- is that we have friends and family who are gay, including gay married couples. Even while our church and government do not support gay marriage, we do. It's no secret.

I think, to sum this up, that even were I an atheist, I'd still go to church with my wife and kids. Why would I want to exclude myself, why wouldn't I want to hold open for family discussion whatever happened in church?

[NAO]

29. Ask your wife to read/study Numbers, Deut, Joshua,Judges, Kings with you

I think reading those books in the bible would be enough to make anyone despise Jehovah, with his commands to kill babies and old men and everything that breathes.

Check out this site.

http://www.crewstopia.com/doug/nuremberg.html

Take the time to open your Bible and read the verses yourself with your wife. And then decide together if this book was really written by God and if this is how you want to teach your children.

[cosmik debris]

32. Ask your wife to make a list

of the ways in which this issue can be resolved. Then make your own list. Look for common ground. If you can't find any, run like hell. If there is no room for compromise on either or both sides, you shouldn't be married.

You have defined this as a win-lose situation. If you are unable to turn it into a win-win situation, you will lose.

[heidler1]

34. I went through what you are going through. My advice is find a group

perhaps on the Internet, that allows you to be yourself without hate and drop it with your Wife who probably just wants a normal life style. Drop it at work too, I worked for IBM Corp. and they were pretty narrow minded. I have two sons and let them go their own way, one is religious and the other is not. They are both over 50 now. This Oct. Ill have been happily married 57 years, I'm 81. The toughest time I had was as a Boy Scout Leader and finding it was good for my Sons so I faked the religious part that was called for. It's better to be a closet Atheist than being divorced or unemployed. Try compromising with your Wife by watching a Sunday Church program on TV. Read the newspaper while it's on and shut up about the sermon.

[neebob]

37. Not going to church is a normal lifestyle

and has been for as long as I can remember. Granted, I've only ever lived in Mormonland and Colorado, but I've always known way more non-churchgoers than churchgoers. I take note when I meet people who attend services regularly or find out that people I already know do, because it's different from what I'm used to.

I know religious people who don't go to church, and I have the impression that's a very common thing. Why would you think it's not normal? What's normal about concealing your true convictions and pretending?

[heidler1]

38. I don't go to church and I think it's normal too.

I didn't say it was normal to go to church, but the OPs Wife is having problems with his not going. I suggested that they watch a TV sermon as a compromise. If he does nothing he might lose her and his kid. Are you married? Do you tell your wife frequently all of your views that she disagrees with?

[neebob]

39. I'm a woman

See #26. I've been divorced a long time. It took me a few years to get comfortable with being single, but then I realized it wasn't just the person I chose - I didn't like being married, because of what I call the burden of someone else's expectations. People in love are rarely very realistic or truthful about what they really want. Most aren't fully aware it, and then the romance wears off, and eventually they get around to imposing their expectations and trying to change each other. I value my autonomy, so much that I'm willing to trade the second income and emergency backup and companionship that go with being part of a couple.

You know what? It's not so bad. And you don't necessarily lose the kid. It can be better than living in a house full of conflict and resentment. My son (17) doesn't remember when his dad and I lived together. Sure, it's hard going back and forth, but if the parents can manage to get along, it can work and be good.

Back to the OP: Why is it suddenly not all right that he's an atheist? His wife needs to answer that question. She created this problem, and she's the one who should make adjustments.

[heidler1]

42. You sound pretty self sufficient, which is good.

I'm inclined to be of the view: analyze the situation and solve it as best you can. The OP asked for help with a marital problem, which most likely means he's on the wrong track. You apparently made up your mind, about divorce, based on your own values, which only you can understand and still like your decision.

Sorry about thinking that you are a man.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

35. Well, my husband got around this

by going to church with us and then standing around and smoking cigarettes with the
County Sheriff (also attending with his wife) outside the church. But I don't guess that is an option anymore.

There are many churches out there whose members you can respect and for whose work you can support, even without adhering to their precepts. United Church of Christ, Unitarians, Episcopalians...those come to mind. There are no demands made on you.

But bottom line...talk it over with you wife. I know I personally grew up with a lot of kids whose moms came to church and their dads didn't, and it worked for them.

Good luck.

oh...don't worry about "winning." Just try and compromise (advice from an old married lady)

[Goblinmonger]

40. My situation

Kind of similar, but I am older with older children and I have made the move from agnostic/deist to atheist while married. My wife, on the other hand is still pretty solidly a deist. My atheism has caused problems for all the same reasons it causes problems in here and in the real world.

Last year we went to a Unitarian Universalist fellowship. I have no problem with the services, they are actually thought-provoking at times. My wife likes it. The kids get exposure to mulitple persepectives. There is even a freethinkers/atheist group that meets every month which I am hopefully hoping to find some time for.

Perhaps that might work for you.

[BurtWorm]

43. Why does she want you to go to church?

Is she trying to save your soul? Or is it just for appearances?

[hunter]

44. Even though you are an atheist, you are still a fundamentalist.

If you declare yourself "the man of the house" by "laying down the law," then you lose by winning -- the spiritual path you are walking with your wife and child will inevitably part. Do you want this? Probably not.

You may "loathe christianity" but presumably you don't loathe your wife and child, so you will have to work something out. I don't even see it it terms of "compromise." Maybe you say fine, I go to church, but afterwards we go out to breakfast and continue this discussion of spirituality -- your church of God, and then my church of brunch. (If you are worried about money, then the church of brunch probably costs less than whatever church your wife belongs to; there is no tithe for brunch.)

I think that's how my dad did it. We'd go to the IHOP after church, and he'd ask cheerfully, "Well, what did you think of that?"

My mom would talk, we kids would talk, and my dad would talk. As kids, the only really hellish times in our religiously divided household were when our grandparents butted in and declared war, saying we had to celebrate Christmas or Easter in some specific way. Eventually my parents found their own way and ceased to be influenced by their own parents, and then there was peace.

[BurtWorm]

45. He never said anything about laying down any law.

He's not telling his wife not to go to church. He's wanting to find a way to assert his right, as a nonreligious person, to NOT go to church.

One compromise would be to find a type of community--such as Unitarian or Ethical Culture--that didn't exclude nonbelievers, or that wasn't about converting nonbelievers. But a church that isn't tolerant of nonbelief is not such a community.

[hunter]

46. He said, "How can I win without giving in to her?"

Maybe like trying a case in court... do you win or lose the case? That was the tone I got.

I've pissed off people in this forum before by saying this, but I'll say it again --

There is a certain kind of Atheism that is basically Fundamentalism without God. Somebody who is escaping Fundamentalist Christianity will simply drop their church and God, yet still expect all the other social structures in their lives to remain intact. But that can't happen. Fundamentalist Christianity is so invasive upon so many aspects of one's own ethical structures, that some of these structures will have to be replaced. (Just as an aside, and entirely unrelated to the original post, some of the most toxic homophobes I've ever met are fuck-it-all-I'm-going-to-hell Fundamentalists who have long quit their God.)

If one's atheism is mostly a reaction against theism, it will not be as strong as it would be standing on it's own roots.

I think back to my own wedding in the Catholic Church. My wife and I have friends and family of many religions, and many friends and family who are atheists. It was interesting seeing their reaction to the Church. I was frankly terrified at first because none of my groomsmen were conventionally Catholic, and my dad is basically a very argumentive Liberal Presbyterian when he wants to be. I was thinking, "Oh God, this is great, they'll get in a brawl about religion with our Priest." But they didn't. They talked about fishing, and everyone was smiling and joking, except me, who was still terrified because I was about to be married.

Out in the church our family and friends who are atheists were smiling and talking and soaking everything up like they were on some grand anthropology expedition. "Oh, look at that! Are those the stations of the cross?" The most uncomfortable people were the Fundamentalists who looked like they were afraid of getting Catholic Cooties if they touched anything. I suspect some of the people who only attended our reception felt a Catholic Church was forbidden territory.

I'm pretty fearless visiting alien churches. I got some of that from my parents, and some of it from a Bahá'í friend of mine (I should look him up, it's been many years) who was as comfortable in a Black Evangelical Church or Catholic Church as he was in his own. I think if I was an atheist I'd like to be the same way, to feel the same sort of security in my own beliefs that I do now.

[BurtWorm]

47. It's one thing to visit a church for a few hours

and quite another to be forced to "belong" to one. A church is not just a social club. Or is it?

[hunter]

48. If church was "just a social club" I wouldn't like it.

Quite frankly, I do think some churches are social clubs. Put some money in the basket and feel good about yourself, ding, ding, ding, you went to church on Sunday! But if that works for some people, than that works for them. Likewise, some couples don't want anything to do with religion.

But here you have a wife with a young child who feels a calling to maintain a relationship with some spiritual tradition. As a husband, you can't simply stay at home and hope everything will turn out all right. It probably won't.

Working together as a couple you have to actively create some spiritual tradition for your own family. Maybe it's one where the husband doesn't have a lot of input, like a family where the wife does most of the cooking except for Saturday afternoon BBQs, but that's the sort of thing a couple has to figure out for themselves. (FYI, I cook in our house, and I changed most of the diapers.)

My wife and I both come from very noisy families where almost any topic is open for discussion. My wife's family is quite a bit more civilized than mine, but nevertheless, they don't shy away from discussions about sex, politics, or religion. When me and my siblings were young adults we'd sometimes bring dates to our parents' house who'd be horrified by the things that were said, the questions that were asked, or the people who happened to be there. (One of my sister's dates actually excused himself from the dinner table and never came back... I can't remember exactly why...)

What's most telling is that we all ended up married to those who could hold their ground.

If you can't discuss rligion with you spouse without having a war there's a big problem.

[BurtWorm]

49. You're basically claiming that a religious spouse has more rights

than a nonreligious spouse. Some people do not believe that religion or "spiritual tradition" is that important. Some even believe religion is hazardous to mental health. If it's important to one spouse, fine; let him or her tend to their own. But it's impractical (not to mention totally unfair) to give the religious spouse the default right to the other spouse's time and to stay silent about his or her beliefs around the children.

Just imagine if, culturally, the default were on the other foot, as it were, and the wife would have to yield her desire to be in church with the kids because the husband demanded they all stay home and read passages from Darwin, Dawkins and Einstein. Why should anyone consent to that?

[hunter]

51. I do make them stay at home and read passages from D,D,&E.

Or something to that effect... They have to live with me, you know. :P (But they get tired of my anti-Bush rants.)

I've actually got a copy of Darwin's "Origin of Species" on the shelf next to my desk, along with my New English Bible, and dictionary.

Okay, if you believe "religion is hazardous to mental health" wouldn't you want to accompany your family on that hazardous journey, maybe to watch out for Rodents of Unusual Size? (The Catholic Church is full of those nasty rat bastards! I always bring a sharp sword to Mass.)

Most people here are seeing this as an issue of control. It's not. You can both go to church (or both not go to church) and still be open about your beliefs with your children in a way that does not undercut your spouse.

True_notes is the one asking the question here, not his wife. It sounds unlikely she's going to be the one who says, "Fine dear, stay home." So the ball is in his court. He can either play it, or let it sail by. This is an opportunity for them to explore their spiritual beliefs together, even if they eventually "agree to disagree."

As for the phrase "spiritual tradition" I always use that in a very broad sense. For some couple, walking down the beach might be a spiritual tradition. They might do that instead of going to church on Sunday.

[BurtWorm]

53. I don't believe religion is strong enough against reason

if reason is valued. Eventually, it seems to me, reason defogs the vision if you want to see clearly. So I don't mind if my daughter explores her spirituality in a way that brings her closer to belief in a god than I am now. I leave it up to her to find her way as she chooses. Chances are she will end up in the same nonbelieving ball park her mother and I are in, but as long as I sense she's chosen her own path freely, I can't object to one I wouldn't choose myself.

Believing in freedom to find one's own way entails believing in freedom from being forced to go someone else's way.

[hunter]

54. I think that was one of the misconceptions of this thread.

That the wife's religion might somehow override true_note's atheism -- almost as if some (uh-oh) supernatural force exists in church that bends mens' wills. Attending church as an atheist isn't a hypocrisy unless you are pretending to be a Christian. (There are probably a lot of pretend Christians in church -- people who are there only to be seen as Christians.)

Another misconception is that this is some kind of political issue, or an issue of free will. It's not. It's strictly a relationship issue. Maybe true_note loathes Christianity, but if he's too reactive here it could lead to his living alone and paying child support -- perhaps a situation even more intolerable to him than going to church might be.

Simply as an aside, another thing I've seen in some of the more toxic forms of Christianity is that the dad gets blamed for not going to church if the kid turns out "badly"...

Well little Suzy grew up to be a Stripper or a Paleontologist or a Lesbian or some other "bad" thing because her father was absent from church and didn't provide adequate moral guidence to the family.

[BurtWorm]

55. I can only tell you that as an atheist, I would not consent

to going to church "religiously." There is nothing at church for me. You might say "Your family is nothing?" but for me, my family is not "church," nor church my family.

Every couple is different. Many couples adjust to separate "spiritual" lives. One size does not fit all.

[hunter]

56. Well, look at post #15 too...

(You still there, true_notes?)

"I am ridiculed at work for my beliefs. I have no friends outside of family and wife. I can't get anything done in the community without my religion being brought up...

So beyond dealing with his wife, he has to deal with her community. It ain't gonna be easy.

My mom's family is from the heart of Mormon Country, where the only religion is Mormon or not-Mormon. From the establishment of Salt Lake City my mom's family was fiercely "not-Mormon." The not-Mormons were a mix of various religions (Catholics, Jews, Native Americans, Blacks, free-thinkers, etc.) and a pretty damned stubborn lot who developed a very solid toolkit for surviving within tightly-knit Mormon communities.

One of the ways they did this was by refusing to be isolated. You get out and show your face -- no matter that everyone is certain you are damned.

What's really interesting is how some communities will make use of outsiders. One of my great-grandfathers was a longtime watermaster in a very Mormon place. He got that position because the politics and backstabbing within the local Mormon community had gotten so bad that as a practical matter they had to have a gentle and jovial outsider to settle their disputes.

If true_notes can find a role in the community like that, he wins, even if he has to occasionally show up in church with his wife.... whenever he's not out fishing.

[BurtWorm]

57. Not "her" community. *Their* community--*his* community, too.

What true-notes needs is validation for his belief that he is entitled not to go to church. It's his right.

He has no choice but to find a role in the community. We're social animals who need to work to live.

I think he needs to be able to say to the busybodies, "Can we talk about something besides our beliefs? Do you mind?" That might be one role he'll have to play if he chooses to stay where he is: the steerer of people away from pointless conversation.

[hunter]

58. But why pass up the opportunity?

Maybe they ask him not to come back, and then he doesn't have to explain anything to his wife...

[BurtWorm]

59. He does not want to go to church.

You're a person of faith, so church is no big deal to you. To an atheist, it's a place where people go to share in mistaking fantasy for reality. It's painful for an atheist to listen to that talk. Are you interested to know why? Would you like to hear why every time you drag an atheist to church?

[hunter]

60. That's between him and his wife.

He said "I do" or something like that, and even supposing religion is some kind of mental illness, he has to build from there.

I'm pretty familiar with the pain of listening "to that talk" too. Wanna see my scars? I got some that still bleed after two decades and more.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=5618588&mesg_id=5620645

The post above wasn't just me being silly, it was one of those uncomfortable epiphanies we all suffer occasionally.

A few of my siblings and their spouses are happy atheists, and it is no big deal in our family, even though it might have greatly disturbed many of our grandparents' generation. But, oh well, they're all dead.

It was my great misfortune as a young man to be picked up by a hard-core Christian who was doing her bloody damnedest not to be a Lesbian. See Ma, I DO have a boyfriend! Being an idiot young man, I actually believed that God might solve this problem, and she thought so too, but instead we got taken for a ride through hell -- Mr. Toad's Wild Ride with real fire and explosions, the hair burned off and polyester melted into your skin kind of hellfire.

After the most horrendous breakup you might imagine (well, maybe not, since nobody died but some of my blood was spilled on the streets of Berkeley) I put myself together again, and somehow found a happy, secure place within myself.

Then I met my wife. That she happened to be Catholic really wasn't a big part of the equation. Sure. I'll sing in the choir with you. You do know I can't sing?

Maybe it would be different if I was an atheist, but I don't think so. My very outspoken atheist sister married a Baptist. She goes to church sometimes, but I think she scares them.

[BurtWorm]

61. It is different for an atheist.

Trust me. ;)

[Realityhack]

65. I gota go with burtworm on this.

I can’t speak for the OP but for me sitting in church wouldn’t just be sitting there getting by. The majority of what was said and done would offend me. Its like asking someone to watch a porno once a week when they REALLY don’t want to. It’s an unreasonable expectation and just giving in ‘for the benefit of the relationship’ will only breed tension/resentment and ultimately destroy it.

Not everything you don’t like is of that nature. But for many atheists religion IS. It’s a deal breaker.

I think that we can probably all accept that for most people there exist things that are deal breakers. Perhaps they might even do something once. But being expected to do that thing on a regular basis is simply unacceptable. This varies for different people. For someone it might be NOT going to church. For another it would be going to church, for someone else the porno, for another moving to x city or away from y.

Compromises must be made but both parties need to respect the areas that are truly unacceptable ground.

[Realityhack]

66. That would help how?

Sounds like that would make things worse.

[hunter]

67. I don't mean in any dishonest way...

If you are who you are, if you stand firm for what you believe in as something inherently good, and still they don't want you in their church, well then that's their problem, not your problem, not your wife's problem. Maybe you teach them something. Maybe your wife understands more of who you are.

I wear a rainbow flag here on DU because a few of the most horrible experiences of my life were the direct result of religious intolerance for homosexuality. I don't keep that secret. I'll argue with Priests and Bishops, and I go out of my way to openly support the marriages of homosexual couples, damn whatever hatreds the church or state is harboring.

How does that sort of attitude make things worse?

[Realityhack]

68. Well...

It sounds like wherever the OP is there is a *lot* o f social pressure around religion. We don’t know what is motivating the wife to want him in church. But if it were social pressure, such an act would IMO increase the pressure not decrease it.

That’s just my opinion but given the small amount in the original post it I wouldn’t take that route. My guess is she might see it as an attack.

[Realityhack]

50. Bad advice

You are way off base. You created a straw man and knocked it down. Congratulations.

First off putting quotes around things the OP said AND things he didn’t is misleading at best.

But more importantly there is a huge difference between a reasonable compromise and just giving in to something you find loathsome. In exchange for something you don’t care about.
For the record it appears the OP did have a compromise worked out that both parties where willing to live with (he doesn’t try to get her not to go to church, she doesn’t drag him, the kid can go with her). That makes the situation of renegotiating the compromise VERY different.

[hunter]

52. My mistake, at least about "laying down the law."

But otherwise, relationships are constantly renegotiated or they die.

[Realityhack]

62. Thanks.

First off thanks for acknowledging that. I know its not a big deal but few people take the time.

As for renegotiating the relationship I agree that it is necessary to do so on a regular basis. But it is also important for both parties to acknowledge that they had a deal and someone is trying to change that. Otherwise you tend to get one (or both) people constantly trying to pressure the other into reversing previous deals without compensation. IMO that’s bad for the relationship long term.

It should also be acknowledged that one party here seems to be asking for something that is antithetical to a very strongly held belief of the other. This is the same as him asking her to give up going to church. From the sounds of his question it seems like giving in to the request is not an option (ie it would breed long term stress/resentment quite possibly beyond the breaking point). This kind of fundamental belief must be respected to a degree. We need to accept that some things are deal-breakers, they might work in the short run but it won’t last long.

As a result I think the 'compromise' you suggest is first off entirely one sided (she gets closer to what she wants but he gets nothing in exchange). And secondly is quite likely asking something of him that is unreasonable (just as asking her to give up her religion would likely be unreasonable).

Thus while I agree re-negotiation is absolutely necessary I think your 'compromise' is a poor one at best.

I had another long post where I went into more detail about what I mean above. Also I would note that the way I saw his statement about 'winning' was he wanted to ensure he didn't do the one thing that was unacceptable to him (go to church) but he seems open to other options.

[hunter]

63. I've spilled a lot of words for all I really know, that's for sure.

Maybe we can boil it down to this:

We've got a new mom seeking some kind of security. The impetus is upon the dad to find that security, whether or not that's a fair burden upon him.

If he doesn't want to go to church (her solution) he's going to have to come up with something else.

I've been a dad for almost seventeen years now, and I gotta say, you learn pretty quick to deal with problems like this, or the marriage doesn't survive. Raising kids is stressful.

[Realityhack]

64. I can agree with that...

though as I said I think he needs to sit down and get them to both recognize what the underlying problem is.

-- on edit. --

And I think both parties need to accept that some things are just unacceptable to the other. We can't ask others to go against their most fundemental beleifs for us. IMO that wouldn't work in the long run.

[MIS_UNDER_ESTIMATED]

69. Think of your child......

I'm sorry that you have to deal with the conflict brought about by fairy tale beliefs. I'm assuming that your wife would be bringing your child with her to church? I actually would not want my child to be indoctrinated in a religion until/unless they old enough to think critically for themselves. Then they could "choose" which religion (if any) they would like to follow. Also, how could it be a good thing for your child to be taught that their father would be going to hell? Why expose them to such unnecessary worry? They would be constantly worried about daddy's "salvation".

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. Depending on the denomination, the child would not necessarily

be taught that his/her father was going to hell.

[skyblue]

70. There's probably plenty of humanist or atheist websites which

can help you with this. Biblical contradictions, and you can ask her what she thinks about God wiping out all of Noah's friends, their babies, puppies, and kittens, so that Noah could go on to live with his family alone to repopulate the earth. Many times people may think that only Christianity can teach what is good. What do they think about Karma (not a Christian idea)? Hope this goes well...... If not you can go to the church, but don't give them a single cent, because they usually teach that all your non-Christian friends are going to hell, etc....

Btw there's always more progressive churches, like the Unitarians who have different viewpoints about the diety which created us.

[vi5]

71. There are 2-3 other threads about my situation on here...

...most may have fallen by the wayside so I'll recap for what it's worth.

I'm an atheist. Have been since I was a little kid going to catholic church. My wife is as well. We're both adamant about it. But we come from a group of family and friends who are very religious in a non judgemental non fundamental way.

Due to a personal crisis and a promise I made to myself and my family I sought out some sort of religious compromise and was directed towards a unitarian universalist church. They welcome atheists, agnostics, jews, christians, hindu, whatever. I met other people who were of the same skepticism as me. The focus on the services I did attend was on humanity and how to treat your fellow man and practicing peace and kindness here on earth. That was the focus. Not on god, or religion or ritual or whatever, although that was a part of it clearly for some of the people there. It was a comforting place to be and there was not only no judgement for my atheism but there were welcoming, open arms.

Is your wife of a specific religion? If that's the case then she may not like going to something like a UU service. But if she's also an atheist or a doubter and just wants a religious community to join then you might want to check this out.