Need help from Jewish DU'ers

[Freedom_from_Chains]

I am thinking about converting to Judaism, was raised a fundamental Christian but never liked it, too scary. Left the church as soon as I could get out, about 15. I am taking the Jewish Immersion class at a local synagogue and have begun thinking about converting. Could some of you look through this article I have been reading and tell me if it is close to being accurate. If it is it certainly supports my position as to why I should convert.

Thanks,

FFC

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/pdf/RealMessiahBookPages_v4ab.pdf

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eric J in MN]

2. That article seems like a reasonable summary

...of some Jewish beliefs. (I'm Jewish.)

[Freedom_from_Chains]

3. Thanks, the more I look into Judaism, the more I like it

It spite of all the troubles it is having in the world right now. But I have always considered Christianity to be full of false teaching about G-d and way too radicalized so I thought I would give the local Synagogue a try.

[aquart]

4. Good freaking lord.

You don't get religion from an article. And one person's opinion of his faith may be totally different from someone else's. YOU have to decide if this is where you belong.

I suggest you pick up the Old Testament and start reading. It's bloody, and sexy, and cruel, and intent on justice. That's the record we began with. All the rest is commentary.

Or you could pick up a copy of any Haggadah, and see how a pagan festival was transformed into a passionate remembrance of achieving freedom.

Every year, when we repeat the command (not commandment) to remember how it felt to be a slave in Egypt, I'm perfectly comfortable being at the table. Every year, when I read Jehovah's admonishment to the jubilant Jews watching the Egyptians drown,"They are my people, too," I am perfectly comfortable at the table.

But every faith has those moments, among others. Frankly, the most truly religious person I ever saw was an old Polish farmer who was being interviewed, thru a translator, on black and white tv when I was about nine or ten. He had been brought to America for a vacation by the Jews whose lives he had saved during World War II. When he was asked, thru the translator, "Why did you risk your life for strangers?" he answered, "I had to. I'm a Catholic."

[Freedom_from_Chains]

5. Uh, for your information, this wasn't a study I started a couple of

years ago but started over 40 years ago. You say I should pick up the Bible, which version would you suggest? The Tanaka, KJV, NIV, Apocrypha, etc, I have them all.

My understanding through my other reading and conversations with people unlike Christians, Jews interpret the bible allegorical so one doesn't necessarily view all of the killing as a concrete. That tends to be a Christian perspective.

[Eric J in MN]

8. The rules of Judaism which govern what an observant Jew do...

...are based on only a small part of the Old Testament.

The main observances are lighting candles on Friday night. Saying kiddush on Friday night (a prayer over wine.) Going to synagogue on Saturday morning. Fasting on Yom Kippur and T'Sha B'Av. Keeping kosher.

I don't think that reading the Old Testament while alone is the best way to decide whether to convert to Judaism. It would make more sense to try going to a few synagogues on Saturday mornings.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

9. That is what I am currently doing is taking some classes at

the local synagogue and a Torah study group on Sat morning.

[Eric J in MN]

10. That makes sense.

Good luck.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

11. Thaks, so far I am hopeful as from the time I was a small child

being subjected to Christian indoctronation weekly, I just always felt there was something real wrong about it. Now as an adult I am sure there is something real wrong about it.

[aquart]

23. Well, if ritual is more important than substance, sure.

Lotta people feel that way.

[Finder]

25. Yikes...any good Rabbi will tell one to stay away from the OT...

(most bible versions). Torah Studies are very different than OT studies--thankfully.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

28. Now tell me how is that,

I have a copy, actually several, of the O.T. and a copy of the Tanakh and as far as I can tell they are basically the same. Seems to me it is the interpretation that is different. And if I understand correctly the heart of the interpretation is going to be in the Talmud and Misrah.

Incidental I am attending a Sat morning Torah study group.

[ajacobson]

6. Speaking from a very limited basis of knowledge

(my ex-wife is a convert to Judaism, me, I'm an atheist) but I understand that most flavors of Judaism don't seek converts (i.e., the convertee has to motivated to seek it) and in fact believe that observant Jews should initially discourage the potential convertee (again, to make sure the convertee is sincere in wishing to convert).

Some Jewish sects, like the Lubuvitcher Hasdim, do proselytize, but among non-observant Jews to win them to their particular flavor of belief.

This may be why not too many people have chimed in on your thread, in my humble opinion.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

7. I have also read that a good Rabbi will turn a potential convert

away three times to see if they are really sincere. And I made the initial contact with them and told them I was considering converting after learning more about the religion. But I only got there after I had researched some things that I found I liked.

But the local synagogue here has a whole set of courses one can take before they decide if they are interested or not and that is where I currently am.

[MannyGoldstein]

12. The Best Thing is What it Does Not Say

I was raised as a Jew, and I still identify as a Jew, although I'm not religious. I'm kind of a fan of all religions - I think that it was Ben Franklin who said that he loved that which is common to all religions, and disliked that which made them different from one-another.

I skimmed the book, and I did notice something that is quite Jewish about it - it does not (that I could see) say anything about one's soul burning in hell for making a wrong guess on which God is numero uno. Rather, it tries to reach out to logic to win the reader over. Logic, not threats.

As a youngster I attended an orthodox temple and hebrew school. I was never a big fan of the religious stuff. However, I always loved that we were taught to always question, and always think. We were told that we should only do what we believe in, and that nobody's opinion is "better" than anyone else's. We were even free to question the Rabbi if we disagreed with him.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

13. And that has been my understanding of Judaism is that it

is more about trying to live the moral life than about blindly following dogma without question. That and they reject the doctrine of original sin which I have always thought was nihilistic and vile. No wonder we have so many self esteem problems in this country.

But I am like you and have studied many religions and have found much more that they have in common with each other than how they differ. Of course the waring religions, like Christianity and Islam, prefer to focus on the difference and have a need to kill those who don't agree, or at the minimum get them to submit.

[Misskittycat]

14. You may want to consider a conversion via a less dogmatic

branch of Judaism than the Orthodox branch. If you were a fundamentalist Christian, and found the conformity and dogma scary, then you may find it helpful to explore Conservative or Reform Judaism, or an even less structured (but harder to find) branch, the Reconstructionist branch.

Modern Judaism offers a wide array of possibilities, including levels of observance and ideology.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

16. The synagogue I am currently working with is Reformed Judaism

I got that understanding right up front as I have had enough hail, fire, and brimstone in my life. LOL

[Misskittycat]

18. Sounds like a good choice for you, then. I was confused and concerned by

the choice of literature, though. I went to the website, and the organization's stated mission is to counter overzealous Christian missionaries trying to convert Jews to Christianity. That doesn't apply to you at all, and that website is not the place I would suggest a person go for information about converting to Reform Judaism.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

20. I did not notice, it that a orthodox jewish website?

Although much of what I am reading there sounds the same as in another book I am reading, "What is a Jew," just a little more specific and detailed.

[Misskittycat]

22. I stand corrected. It is endorsed by a variety of Jewish

organizations including the Orthodox Union.

Still, I wouldn't consider this document a first-line choice for information about Judaism itself. The website describes its program as one designed to prevent impressionable Jews - mostly teens -- from falling under the lure of what the website describes as cult-like Christian missionaries.

[Igel]

15. I don't find that the Xian perspective is dead-on.

More on less, for most sects. Not for all. He's 0 for 4 for the fundie church I was in. It's a trivial task to show most offshoots from Catholicism have little in keeping with early Christianity; what became the Universal Church (later split into Orthodoxy and Catholicism) pretty much wiped out primitive Christianity.

The earliest dogmas of Xians were Jewish. They kept passover; they kept the sabbath; the requirement for circumcision was a question that needed to be addressed. They followed Jesus. Only after a century or so did a sufficient number of Gentiles join the church, and apostolic authority was lost, so that the original doctrines were altered. To be non-Jewish. Even to the point of making Saturday a fast day.

That said, I've been fishing around recently for a church. Haven't found any that I consider remotely Xian, which has a congregation in Houston, and bothers to return my calls. My fall-back is likely to be a conservative Jewish congregation.

May I ask, what fundie sect were you in? PM, if that's something best not noised about.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

17. The church I was in was a southern Baptist, but not all southern

Baptist are fundies, this one however was and as far as I am concern foists long term psychological abuse on it's adherents. Think Andrea Yates.

[Igel]

19. Ah.

Psychological abuse. Nasty stuff, that. Takes years to get over, or at least mostly over. Lots of books written about getting past it. I have some on my bookshelf. Didn't do much good. (I wasn't Baptist, but sort of a distant cousin to some early 19th century Anabaptists. Psychological abuse comes in many forms.)

[Freedom_from_Chains]

21. Yes it does, I have had to work on my own traumas and fears from

that experience for years. But that is a whole other story.

[TreasonousBastard]

24. I fished around for 30 years or so after...

being raised as a fundamentalist Lutheran, (yes, they exist, and they are acarier than many other fundies because they are much better educated and far more arrogant) which is probably not quite as bad as a fundie Baptist, but bad enough to chase me away.

Now, I'm a Quaker but have close ties to a UU church. I've found some Baptist, Methodist, and Reformed churches that don't go quite as far as the primitive Quaker teachings of the Light and such, but are not that far from our undogmatic belief in a universal God of love.

As far as returning your calls goes, I doubt many of the more interesting churches do that. I know we rarely do, but that's not because we don't want you. We're just not that good at evangelizing and outreach, and I suspect we're not alone.

Best to find a local church or meeting that sounds interesting and drop in. It takes some time, but the rewards are there, and finding a church with a universalist outlook isn't quite as drastic as changing to an entirely new religion.

[hunter]

26. Okay. Why?

If you are looking for a trump card to play against your family, that's not a good idea. They'll find some other reason to shun you for leaving their church.

You really have to examine your own motives very carefully. Grant yourself the freedom to explore.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

27. My family is already dead

and exploration is what I am doing, that's why I posted the question.

[hunter]

29. So you are all alone?

Dead dead, or just dead to you? (Only the first one counts.)

Also, is this quest a reaction against your upbringing, or is it something positive -- like wow, these seem to be some really good people?

The reason I ask is that my mom's religious misadventures (which I suffered through as a child) were the result of her reaction against the Catholic Church.

In my own experience, positive motivations are usually more accurate than negative motivations.

It is better to be drawn toward something than it is to be seeking shelter from something else.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

30. No, it is not a reaction against something. If I was going to do

that I would just proclaim myself to be an atheist. It is just that I have begun studying Judaism recently and it actually makes sense to me, something Christianity, which I was raised as, never did. Consequently I am interested in learning more to see if it can still continue to hold water.

Although, I am somewhat disappointed in myself that I did not seriously take a look at it earlier in life, as I have studied theology for years. Somehow I think that is just simply a reaction of being raised in a fundamentalist home an taught that Jews were bad because they did not believe in Jesus. So, to a certain degree, I continued to buy that long after I should have.