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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 11:13 PM
Original message
Real v. True v. Provable
In order for religious ideas to deserve serious consideration, should those ideas be "real" or "true" or "provable"?

"Real" and "true" and "provable" seem not to be synonyms.

Scientific culture emphasizes material reality as its topic and, although not entirely hostile to supposed logical demonstrations, is skeptical of alleged proofs which remain untested by experiment. The scientific attitude towards long complicated arguments seems to be that these arguments are merely interesting jabber unless, at regular intervals throughout the argument, the alleged facts can be shown to match measurable features of the real world.

Much of modern mathematics, on the other hand, is devoted to establishing truth by rigorous argument, without regard for the material reality of the subject matter: here one finds various "true" assertions of the form "such and such a thing exists," even when there is no possibility of actually exhibiting to the unindoctrinated nonexpert any example of the sort of thing alleged to exist. Here, the distinction between "true" and "provable" was made quite forcibly by Godel in the 1930's, when he showed how, if given a theory for arithmetic, one could find a statement which not only was unprovable in the theory but also which was necessarily true because it was unprovable.

There is also a common, subjective notion of truth -- illustrated by the quote "It's the truth even if it never happened" in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest -- which raises the question whether, for example, one might learn "truths" from admitted fictions. The Zohar -- a Jewish cabalistic text first known in the Middle Ages and (rightly, I think) often regarded as profound and beautiful -- was attributed to a much earlier period by its medieval transcriber, although according to some traditions, the transcriber's wife asserted he had invented the text himself.

One might ask whether religious notions are "real" in a scientific sense, whether they are "provable" in a mathematical or logical sense, or whether they are "true" in some other sense.

Utterances commonly associated with the word G-d suggest that the scientific method might be useless for the purposes of investigating the notion, since it is unclear how devices such as rulers and clocks could be applied to investigate "something" which presumably transcends space and time. As Chuangtzu said, "That which gives things their thusness cannot be limited by things: so when we speak of limits, we remain confined to limited things."

Nor is it clear that G-d, as a notion, can be subjected to any reasonable logical analysis, since for meaningful logic one needs axioms and deduction rules and (just as importantly) a subject which is limited enough to reason about, since otherwise the sophomoric paradoxes -- such as, "Supposing X can do anything, can X create a rock too heavy for X to lift" -- can be endlessly recast in ever more-sophisticated forms.

Religions often involve assertions that something Divine can come into the world. Sometimes these assertions are associated with miraculous or Supernatural claims, which are necessarily unscientific, since they do not involve phenomena governed by natural laws; sometimes these are assertions are of the form that we cannot understand by logic some hidden and transcendent Purpose.

Here's a specific theological question: could The Divine actually come into the world through myth or fiction?

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Shameless self-kick
:kick:
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. I have a different take.
Edited on Sat Oct-28-06 12:31 AM by Random_Australian
And this is the science thing.

You see, in science, you don't really have to know all about what you are studying, all you need to do is show that something has an effect, and then the famous bits happen after that.

But anyway, at the core of science is something having an effect.

If we can find no interference, it would seem that there is a lack of evidence for a God that intervenes in the world.

Intervenes in the world can also be taken as giving the people the various experiences they have.

Therefore, no interference, no evidence.

If we find interference we will conclude there is something.

That aside, I see faith as something that is valid not based upon the evidence presented but whether or not that faith has a use.

Thus far, I have seen these reasons to call faith or religion valid:

Faith:
- Provides comfort & allows people to 'cue' emotions.
- Continues the illusion that we see things as they are.
- Provides a great second viewpoint, even if it DOES speak from their not-as-conscious desires.
- Burns up endless idle processing power.

Religion and churches and stuff:
- Easy shortcut to a moral system, even if it does get corrupted.
- Social network that people like.
- Can provide kind people to talk to.

Edit: If you find any of the above insulting, PLEASE ask me to explain them before launching into flamewar! (end edit)

And as for the question 'can The Devine come into the world through myth or fiction' - of course - what property exactly couldn't?
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Doesn't your term "valid" imply truth?
You said it is valid because it has a use. I would say that it is useful because it has a use.

I don't understand your use of the word "valid". Care to elaborate?
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Not identical to truthful, and not quite as pragmatism based as useful.
Edited on Sat Oct-28-06 09:58 AM by Random_Australian
Basically, truth is close to, but not, an end to itself.

This is all running with some views on cognition already inherent, basically, I am saying that our little minds have not the time to work out everything for ourselves. Sometimes a practical approximation is good enough.

For instance, we may not be able to hold something still, but that does not stop welders or surgeons.

So validity is part 'closeness to the truth' and part 'reason for making such an approximation to the truth'.

If this makes no sense, I will rewrite it soon and am currently writing at very late in the night/morning.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Be Careful
On our side of the Pacific Ocean we use the word "Truthiness" to describe Bush's "almost true" statements. You should be careful not to fall into that trap.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. No, you use it to describe statements that are literally almost true,
but not used for an accurate approximation of reality.

For freak's sake, cosmik, everything we ever say is at best just an approximation to reality.

Aaaaagh!

So don't start saying that 'almost true' is something that implies A) Trickery or deceit, like Bush; and B) is something different to what Mr. Fantastic Cosmik uses.

Sheesh!

:)
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I'm sorry, I misunderstood
And again I have to beg forgiveness.

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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Well, at least we understand each other. Thanks for saying so.
:)
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Well, I didn't say I understood
I said I misunderstood. But I'm willing to live with that if you are.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Sure. :)
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Scientific theories require not just "effect" but "reproducible effect"
In basic science, one must be able to say "under such and such limited circumstances, such and such results." These theories of reproducible phenomena may then be used to discuss broader observations.
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Right now, but that's just a technological limitation.
Us and our little labs. For now.

In time, a wide range of effects that are not reproducible will be able to be found to exist, though I admit not studied.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. A Journal of Irreproducible Results fan, eh?
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. What the fuck are you talking about? n/t
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Here is the link
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Random_Australian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Nope, I'd never heard of it. And what's more, that's NOT what I was
talking about.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-29-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. JIR has sometimes been popular in various scientific circles:
experimentalists are interested in results that are reproducible, so even the journal title is a bit of a joke.

Everybody knows that irreproducible events occur: it's just not possible to use them to construct basic science ...
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charles22 Donating Member (200 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. Religion has no demonstration.
Only those who share the belief make it so. I don't really see the need to introduce science, since by its very method, does not have religion as an object--anymore that art or accounting.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The question is, what is required to assent to an assertion? Or, ...
... what warrants one's agreement?

Different subjects appear to use different standards: what a logician or a mathematician requires is different from what an experimentalist requires, and what is required by ordinary people in daily life also differs from either of those.
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charles22 Donating Member (200 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-28-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Ok, let's look deeper--
Edited on Sat Oct-28-06 02:09 PM by charles22
Most people do not really think about whether God exists or not, they think about the nature of the world. Thus, no proof of God that I have seen proves anything; it is just a statement or definition of God.
The question is whether your belief corresponds to others and whether that warrants joining a church or not.
If those believers are correct--that is, in defining the issue--then belief is the only condition in which proof of God makes any sense.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-01-06 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. Real is equivalent to true, but provable is only a subset of that.

Real is an adjective applied to things, true is an adjective applied to propositions, so they're not the same, but there's a very simple link:

X is real <==> The proposition "X exists" is true.

Provable is like true, in that it applies to propositions, but it's a much stronger claim. All provable propositions are true, by definition, but not all true propositions are provable: one of "a god exists" and "a god does not exist" is true, but neither is provable.
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