was POPE BENNY trying to pass on some subliminal teaching re:Bush?

[flordehinojos]

The Pope said this,

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Did the Pope mean to tell the world this,

"Show me just what Bush the Bush pRESIDENCY is about and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread PEACE AND DEMOCRACY by bullets, warmongering, torture and fear planting."

[flyarm]

1. this pope was chosen by the * cabal!...n/t

[flordehinojos]

2. his words seem to have such a double-edged sword meaning to me.

he really seems to be talking about bush...because bush is doing the same exact same thing mohammed did. bush isn't about SHPREADING religion but he is about SAVING CIVILIZATION and giving it his kind of peace and democracy through war, killings, bloodshed, manipulations and lies.

for secular purposes bush has taken a page out of the mohammed teachings.

[tocqueville]

3. Once again the Pope DIDN'T say that

he quoted with reservations an old text where the main point wasn't the point above and was said in an historical context where Muslims were slaughtering Byzantines. The question was : is it theologically right to justify conversion through violence ? The Pope says no because it's not humanely logical and thus Godless. The Muslims say yes, because God's "logic" overrules everything. What was discussed is the philosophy of transcendence. The quote was only used in an academic discussion among priests.

[flordehinojos]

5. and once again,

as the Pope asks, "is it theologically right to justify conversion through violence ?" and then answers, " no because it's not humanely logical and thus Godless. "

My ears hear a reference to, "Is it theological right to justify the bringing of democracy through violence?" and my ears continue to hear, "NO. because it is a Godless act"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and bush who calls himself a COMPASSIONATE CHRISTIAN, A GOD FEARING MAN, is committing GODLESS ACTS OF WAR, MASSACRES, KILLINGS AND TORTURE!

The Pope's words can and are BUSH's best critic and i hope the religious right is listening!

[tocqueville]

7. I completely agree of course nt

[aquart]

4. It's so cute the way he forgets how Christianity made its converts.

When you dig up native graveyards from the conquistador era in Latin America, the people have an amazing number of collarbone breaks. You get that from being kicked while kneeling.

Charlemagne just liked to mass murder "pagans."

And let's never forget the noble crusades.

Just so cute!

[flordehinojos]

6. and add to that CHIEF INDIO HATUEY of CUBA who was burned at the stake

by the Spaniards because he refused to accept their ways, including their religion, telling FRY BARTOLME DE LAS CASAS just before he was set on fire, "IF THE SPANISH GO TO HEAVEN, I DON'T WANT ANY PART OF HEAVEN."

[tocqueville]

8. yep, but it doesn't stand in the Gospels

compare with :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

besides the verses in the Quran :

According to Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani a 10th century Maliki jurist:

Jihad is a precept of Divine institution. Its performance by certain individuals may dispense others from it. We Malikis maintain that it is preferable not to begin hostilities with the enemy before having invited the latter to embrace the religion of Allah except where the enemy attacks first. They have the alternative of either converting to Islam or paying the poll tax (jizya), short of which war will be declared against them.
According to al-Mawardi an 11th Century Shafi'i jurist:

The mushrikun of Dar al-Harb (the arena of battle) are of two types: First, those whom the call of Islam has reached, but they have refused it and have taken up arms. The amir of the army has the option of fighting them…in accordance with what he judges to be in the best interest of the Muslims and most harmful to the mushrikun… Second, those whom the invitation to Islam has not reached, although such persons are few nowadays since Allah has made manifest the call of his Messenger…it is forbidden to…begin an attack before explaining the invitation to Islam to them, informing them of the miracles of the Prophet and making plain the proofs so as to encourage acceptance on their part; if they still refuse to accept after this, war is waged against them and they are treated as those whom the call has reached…
Ibn Taymiyya, a 14th Century Hanbali jurist15:

Since lawful warfare is essentially jihad and since its aim is that the religion is God's entirely and God's word is uppermost, therefore according to all Muslims, those who stand in the way of this aim must be fought. As for those who cannot offer resistance or cannot fight, such as women, children, monks, old people, the blind, handicapped and their likes, they shall not be killed unless they actually fight with words (e.g. by propaganda) and acts (e.g. by spying or otherwise assisting in the warfare).
In the Hidayah, vol. II. p. 140 (Hanafi school):

It is not lawful to make war upon any people who have never before been called to the faith, without previously requiring them to embrace it, because the Prophet so instructed his commanders, directing them to call the infidels to the faith, and also because the people will hence perceive that they are attacked for the sake of religion, and not for the sake of taking their property, or making slaves of their children, and on this consideration it is possible that they may be induced to agree to the call, in order to save themselves from the troubles of war… If the infidels, upon receiving the call, neither consent to it nor agree to pay capitation tax, it is then incumbent on the Muslims to call upon God for assistance, and to make war upon them, because God is the assistant of those who serve Him, and the destroyer of His enemies, the infidels, and it is necessary to implore His aid upon every occasion; the Prophet, moreover, commands us so to do."
Ibn Khaldun, the 15th century Tunisian historian:

In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force... The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense... Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations.
Javed Ahmed Ghamidi, a Sunni Islamic scholar, writes in Mizan:

There are certain directives of the Qur’an pertaining to war which were specific only to the Prophet Muhammad against Divinely specified peoples of his times (the polytheists and the Israelites and Nazarites of Arabia and some other Jews, Christians, et al) as a form of Divine punishment -- for they had persistently denied the truth of the Prophet's mission even after it had been made conclusively evident to them by God through the Prophet, and asked the polytheists of Arabia for submission to Islam as a condition for exoneration and the others for jizya and submission to the political authority of the Muslims for exemption from death punishment and for military protection as the dhimmis of the Muslims. Therefore, after the Prophet and his companions, there is no concept in Islam obliging Muslims to wage war for propagation or implementation of Islam. The only valid basis for jihad through arms is to end oppression when all other measures have failed. Islam only allows Jihad to be conducted by a Government<36> with at least half the power of the enemy.<37>

so the Pope is basically right, despite what the Church has done (and the Protestants weren't much better, specially because they use the Old Testament as the Muslim use the Qoran, which the Catholics don't).

Besides the point isn't there. All this discussion was about transcendence, and the jihad episode peripheric. What the Pope really meant is that the Islamic view of God is transcendent, which means that it is not rational from a human point of view, or at least don't have to be. But saying that a God is not rational regarding human behaviour (or doesn't have to be) is nothing else than... idolatry. It's the Golden Calf. No wonder the clerics were pissed off. It exactly the weak point in the Muslim faith.