I'm going to admit a religious bias

[Goblinmonger]

Last weekend I drove to North Dakota and back from Wisconsin to see my ill mother. On my way back near Minneapolis, I usually stop in Clearwater, MN at the truckstop because they have incredible carmel rolls (sticky buns if you are in Wisconsin). Anyway, as I was getting close to the exit, I saw a billboard for the truckstop and it had a huge Jesus fish on it. I didn't stop. Why? Cause fuck them, that's why. At that point in time it just seemed like a "Christians come here" piece of crap. Could be that I was on edge after meeting with my siblings who, with the exception of my sister, are ultra-conservative catholic pricks.

Why do that as a business? Was I off the edge(probably)? I really wanted one of those tasty pastries, too, so it wasn't like it was no big deal for me.

Anyway, thought this might be a good discussion.

[ewagner]

1. I think I would have

done the same thing.

I'm really tired of the proselytizing and the really "f**ked-up" interpretations of the bible being thrown at me. Christian businesses my have a constitutionally protected right to display their faith but it is also my constitutionally protected right to say "No, thank you!

[Donnachaidh]

2. I regularly pass on doing business with *fish* businesses

I think it's extraordinarily rude to put that on any business card or sign. I want to buy something - I don't want your faith shoved in my face.

[acmejack]

3. Good for you.

I wouldn't have either and for the same reason. I have had more than enough of this crap.

[liberal N proud]

4. Too me Christianity is not something you should need to advertise

If you have to advertise that you are a Christian, they maybe you are not in the right place with your faith.
I told my wife that she could not apply for a particular credit card because the card had the 3 crosses on a hill. (We renew credit cards ever so many years just to keep the lowest possible interest rates).
Anyway that brought up the discussion, I just don't need to advertise that I am a Christian. Faith is supposed to be a relationship between you and your God, not you and every other person who claims to be Christian.
To me those who have the fish on the backs of their car and the holy roller radio station stickers in their windows are not as faithful as they want you and me to think they are.

[hobbit709]

5. When I see self-proclaimed Xians

I think of these words from Matthew
5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

[rosesaylavee]

9. Exactly.

Why don't they read that text more? That's how we were taught growing up. I know its all about 'witnessing' about their faith but I don't think advertising fits into the original intent.

Actions always speak louder than words.

I say find the recipe for sticky buns and make them at home - they will be fresh and taste better!

[noahmijo]

6. Religion was always setup to control and scare the shit outta you

that's the whole purpose of religion and there I've said it with no shame. It's bad enough the followers stand idly by while the heads of their beliefs steal and manipulate, but then they try to turn their bullshit superstitious beliefs on you citing that you better believe...or else.


No sympathy no apologies RELIGION IS A SCAM always has been from the beginning always will be. It uses FEAR as it's primary tool and human beings have always been the willing item to be screwed.

[rosesaylavee]

10. Some Christian faiths are set up that way

as the Roman Catholic Church, on which most were developed from, was set up that way as the Roman Empire was set up that way.

There are some faiths that don't demand fearful congregants.

[noahmijo]

28. The religions that demand obedience are set up that way

I won't name them you know what they are and what they have done to those whose faiths involved spiritual guidance and true philosophy-they've been wiped off the map for the most part.

[rosesaylavee]

47. Yep/ But

the underlying spirituality remains. Don't give up hope. Humans are amazingly resilient.

[trotsky]

7. I try to think how I would have felt about those when I was a Christian...

And I'm pretty damn sure I'd feel the same about them as I do now: pathetic public displays of religiosity.

What, are we supposed to think, "Oh, this place is run by Christians, they'll never cheat me or charge too much or cook their food improperly to give me food poisoning"????

[mrcheerful]

8. I feel the same way

When you have so called christens that whine and complain that all of america's problems are caused by the welfare socialist state put in place by democratic leaders, it gets kind of old. What gets me is the worst ones are the people between 25 and 35 years of age, its like they worship Reagan as god and shrub as his son. I think the religios wrong have watched to many Beeny Hinn and Pat Robertson shows.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Random_Australian]

14. You know, if there is no sign on the front saying "come all ye muslims to

this muslim place of muslimness, and everyone else can fuck off" like the big fish above, then it sounds kinda cool. A birds-eye view of the rainforest, eh?

Although there is a very, very real chance that living somewhere where religion is not a problem means I care less than most about this kinda stuff. :)

[tjwmason]

17. To be fair

The fish thing didn't tell non-Christians to go elsewhere, it merely said that the owners wanted to advertise their self-declared Christianity.

But you're right, there is a difference between catering to the religious requirements of customers and saying "look we're holy come here"...

On the otherhand, I suspect that Oz. is mostly like here in England - there are some cars which have fish on them...but I don't think I've ever seen one on a business.

[Random_Australian]

18. We are not that into bumper stickers.

It is rare to see any sticker on a car, so I don't even know what the Jesus fish looks like.

But yes, it didn't tell non-Christians to go elsewhere.

And no, I've never seen one on a business. That would be wa-a-a-a-ay too weird.

Except of course the zoroastrians, but that does not count.

[filer]

12. Are you sure they weren't advertising that day's lunch special?

All you can eat catfish?

[Finder]

13. How do you feel about kosher delis with a star of David on the sign?

Many businesses do join associations that give discounts to fellow members or market to particular demographics to increase customers and using a common logo is pretty common.

I see it as simply a marketing tool.

[Random_Australian]

15. Would not the star of David sign simply be an advertisement that the

menu is kosher? Rather than a statement of faith?

And what exactly would a 'Christian' menu be that is different from the norm?

And I wonder what sign they use to advertise halal.

Hmmmmm.

[moggie]

19. No shellfish, perhaps

After all, God Hates Shrimp.

[Warpy]

16. I've been burned by too many conspicuous Christians

so I tend to look for alternatives. If I must deal with them, I keep my eye on them very, very closely.

There are too many pedophiles, racists, thieves, and con artists hiding behind the cross these days. They've given the honest people an undeservedly bad name.

Since you already know those particular conspicuous Christians will give you good value for your money, a heavenly sticky bun, you know they're some of the more trustworthy ones. Feel free to stop there the next time. Perhaps the sticky bun will remove the bitter taste in your mouth that dealing with the conservative Catholic pricks in your family has given you.

That's what I'd do, anyway.

[sui generis]

20. My SO had a contract offer at a company here

the agent who was sending him said, "now I gotta warn you, they're SUPER christian, bibles in every office, an office "pastor" for people who are feeling stressed out, religious references and artwork everywhere.

SO said, I'm so glad you told me before you sent me because the answer is no.

Oddly, these recruiters have sent something like five people to do this highly specialized contract and all five turned around and walked out BEFORE the interview.

Next that company will only SELL to christians. The phone's ringing - I think it's Darwin calling.

[beam me up scottie]

30. There are some christians here who doubt christian workplaces exist.

I found this out after giving a description of my place of employment.

How naive can a person be?

Good for your SO, I wish I could afford to tell my company where to stick their ignorance and intolerance.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. I don't trust businesses with fish

on them, unless they are selling seafood or goldfish.

If you have to advertise, you are protesting too much. And I would think it would turn OFF more than it would bring in. I know a few fundamentalists through work and I asked at lunch..none of them go looking for the fish symbol. You can be one hell of Christian but a total **ck-up as a plumber.

But sticky rolls? I would have gone in, personally. Screw the fish. Don't keep me away from my pastries.

[Goblinmonger]

22. Had I planned on stopping

on the way up to ND, I probably would have stopped. But I was so pissed off after dealing with my brothers that I was up to the fill mark.

They are damn good sticky roll, too.

[catbert836]

23. I have the same bias.

Although it tends to come from personal experience- over two-thirds of my fellow drivers in this city who have screamed obscenities at me or attempted some other form of road rage directed at me have had Jesus fish on their cars. These cars are often the biggest, most gas-wasting vehicles you could find on the road too. I won't risk hazarding a guess as to why that is, but I usually avoid people, establishments or organizations who feel the need to broadcast their Christian righteousness.

[Zebedeo]

24. When I see the Christian fish on a business

I am more likely to choose that business over another, all things being equal. I don't view the fish as a symbol of self-righteousness, as some of the posters above seem to. But that's because I don't think Christianity is a religion of self-righteousness. In fact, quite the opposite. Christianity is based on the concept that the self is NOT righteous - that none of us Christians are righteous. Our deeds are as filthy rags in God's eyes. To me, the fish symbol is a sign of humility, because the business owner is a fellow Christian who acknowledges that she is not worthy, but that she is dependent on the grace of God.

Also, 99% of the time, when you see the fish, it is a local Mom-and-Pop business, which I prefer over the big megacorporations.

[Evoman]

25. While I appreciate your honesty and good intentions

(especially about the Mom and Pop business), there is a difference between being humble, and false humility. Somebody who is truly humble does not need to broadcast their humility. In the cases of these shops, the fish is not about "dependence of god"...its about using religion to cash in, which any humble christian should find odius. You are projecting your feelings on to other people, assuming they are like you...that is a dangerous thing to do. Are people who put a hundred American flags more patriotic than a person who has none, but understands and would defend to death the rights of others?
After all....one of us evil atheists could easily put a fish on our stores, to "reel in the suckers" could we not?

The bible itself teaches that those who broadcast their Religiosity from the street corners, are hippocrates. Your covenant with god is supposed to be internal, and special...not something you USE to make a couple of extra bucks.

Oh...and about self-righteousness....you obviously do believe that Christians are in a way "better" than non=christians, since you find the religion of the store keeper important when you conduct your business. If christians aren't better (be it because they aknowledge their "humbleness"...which you obviously don't think non-christians are), then why frequent their shops instead?

[Evoman]

26. Opps...replied to wrong post

[beam me up scottie]

29. THAT'S IT! 50 American flags = the patriotic version of the fish !

Thank you, Evoman, that sums up EXACTLY how I feel when I see the fish.

It's not just about religion, it's about advertising your patriotism/christianity as if it elevates you above others who don't advertise.

I live in a community that is at least 98% christian, why do some think it's necessary to advertise the fact?

Are people going to mistake them for heathens if they don't?

Just like patriots who don't put imported plastic flags on everything they own, the christians who don't advertise their faith but are honest and treat me with respect get my business.


The rest of them can kiss my ever-evolving ass.

[SPKrazy]

44. I Hate The Fish

I don't like flags

I don't like the Darwin walking fish or whatever that is above either

why can't we all just be humans living in a fascist nation

WE NEED TO FOCUS ON STOPPING THE FASCISTS!

[Zebedeo]

34. I suppose that the difference between you and me

is that you see it as false humility and I see it as genuine humility. When I see the fish, I don't interpret it as the owner trying to make a couple of extra bucks; I see it as the store owner saying - "this is a Christian business. We deal fairly and try to live by Christian principles." That tends to make me want to frequent that business, to support a fellow Christian, with a Mom-and-Pop business.

As for your scenario where "evil atheists" might misuse the fish symbol in a fraudulent way, I doubt it. I have never heard of that happening and see no reason why it would. In fact, based on the posts in this thread, it seems as though atheists have such an aversion to the Christian fish that they could not bring themselves to put it on their door. Plus, if they have a fish on their door, they would have to endure my "God Bless" as I exit, which would drive any self-respecting "evil atheist" nuts. ;)

[Evoman]

36. Lol...buddy, that ain't the only difference between us.

Think about it Zeb...lets CONSERVATIVELY say that 50% of the population is christian. That means that about 50% of the owners of a shop are approximately christian. From what I've seen, not even close to that number of shops (50%) have the fish sign.

So, a great deal of shops without the fish are owned and run by humble, filthy rag christians. Whats the difference between the christians who advertise the fish and those who don't...who is more christian, who is more humble? WHO CARES. Your buying cheetos for gods sakes.

I stand by my statement....a person who is truly humble does not need to wave his hands and wear a sign to show people how humble they are, and don't try to use their faith to influence how you shop.

I also think you need to re-read The Book of Matthew, Zeb.

[greyl]

45. "...this is a Christian business. We deal fairly..."

That would mean you believe a biz with a Jesus fish treats customers more fairly than one without, correct? If so, do you have any evidence to support that notion?
I think the very fact that the store owners exploit the Jesus fish shows that they aren't dealing fairly. It's a pathetic segregationist practice.

[neebob]

32. Yeah, but what about that other 1%?

Those fish signs are really easy to get. If I was a con artist, I'd put one on my car or my door and act like I was all humble and dependent on the grace of God and my deeds were as filthy rags and everything.

Rule #1 for people who don't want to be scammed, used, manipulated, lied to, or just taken advantage of: People who are humble, honest, grateful, generous, insert whatever adjective you find desirable here, don't need to tell you about it. It shows through their actions.

Rule #2: Everyone does not think like you or play by the same set of rules. Just because you're a good person and you think the fish sign means something good does not mean someone else with a fish sign is a good person.

Rule #3: The bad people have spent more time thinking about how you think than you have.

[MikeH]

33. I respect your preference and personal choice, but remember one fact

I don't view the fish as a symbol of self-righteousness, as some of the posters above seem to. But that's because I don't think Christianity is a religion of self-righteousness. ... To me, the fish symbol is a sign of humility, because the business owner is a fellow Christian who acknowledges that she is not worthy, but that she is dependent on the grace of God.

There are many times when what is supposed to be true in theory, or what one would think ought to be true, and what actually is true in practice, are two different things.

[Dervill Crow]

35. As a driver of a car that had a fish on it for a number of years,

I have to agree with you. I didn't consider it proclaiming my righteousness at all, it was to demonstrate that not all Christians are weirdos.

A very out-of-the-broom-closet fellow pagan asked me what I would have thought of her had I met her when I was going through my Christian phase. I could honestly say that I would have thought about her exactly the same way I do now; I'm not a different person just because my spiritual life has done a couple of U-turns during my life.

Edited to add: I thought it was a good "Christian witness" kind of thing to be a courteous driver when I had that fish on my car. Sort of like now; I have a "Coexist" bumper sticker with a cross, pentacle, star of David, crescent, etc., and with that the DU bumpersticker I don't want to be seen flipping people off or cussing at them. It would just be wrong.

[Zebedeo]

37. "not all Christians are weirdos"

Amen to that.

It sounds like you are a good example for whatever religious affiliation you may choose to display on your car. Putting it out there seems like a good way to keep oneself honest.

It is admirable that you are a courteous driver. For my own part, I was once a road-raging, stressed out commuter. I got over that about 15 years ago, and ever since have been enjoying the tranquility that comes from not caring about other people's road manners. This transformation came years before I became a Christian.

[Random_Australian]

38. That is one of the most fascinating things about religion, the amount

of change you can get in someone when they convert to religion, or stop believing, or (other large change in spirituality and stuff).

Fascinating stuff.

[Dervill Crow]

42. I was probably pretty obnoxious when I was a new Christian.

I was really happy with my newfound religion and wanted to share the joy. It was very comforting to believe that the Bible had all the answers. It didn't stick, though. The strange thing is that Christians who have known me a long time don't realize that I'm not one of them and probably haven't been for close to 15 years. It just isn't something I talk about very publicly.

[MikeH]

39. Good if that works for you

It sounds like you are a good example for whatever religious affiliation you may choose to display on your car. Putting it out there seems like a good way to keep oneself honest.

If it does help one to be honest, that is good.

I used to be a Christian many years ago, and at one time, very briefly, I put a fish on symbol on my car.

However I had a lot of anger issues during that time, which it would take a long time for me to deal with. It turned out that the fish symbol did not help to keep me honest, so I took it off after a very short time.

It would take many years for me to work out some of my anger issues, and Christianity was not at all of help to me in doing so. I would later come to realize that Christianity was not being of help to me, and disassociating myself from Christianity and its outward practice would be one healthy step for me in enabling me to deal with my issues.

I would say that in general I am a lot less angry than I used to be. Actually I now have an anti-shrub bumper sticker and a DU bumper sticker on my car, and a sticker for my local Democratic congressional candidate, Francine Busby. These I really want to have on my car, and I am much better able now to not let certain things infuriate me like they once did.

[Dervill Crow]

40. I also have "What Would Blackbeard Do?" on my car.

Not only are pirates very big in Portland, it is said that my mum (from North Carolina) was actually a descendent of Edward Teach. Wonder if that bumpersticker will make cops watch me more closely?

I love all the other fish emblems, like the gefilte fish, the fish with "n'chips," the Darwin feet, etc., but the whole idea of advertising one's religion seems stupid to me now, whereas 20 years ago it seemed important.

[Dervill Crow]

41. Why, thanks!

:blush:

I don't advertise my religion (or lack thereof) these days unless someone asks me point blank, but I do try not to be an embarrassment to any of the demographic groups I belong to that might be inferred from my bumperstickers.

[Evoman]

27. I probably would have stopped

Good food is good food....

Although, honestly, if there was a place right across the street without a fish sign who made the same thing, I would probably pick that shop. Something about the fish really bothers me....you should be able to rely on your skills and service and superior products as a business...if you have those things, you shouldn't have to broadcast your religion. If your shop sucks, and your service is shoddy...I guess the fish could maybe get you at least some customers

[neebob]

31. I haven't noticed a busness with the fish sign in my area

but if I did, I'd assume the proprietor wasn't interested in my business and take it elsewhere.

I see fish on cars all the time. What's the point - you're a Christian? Big fucking deal. I seem to remember something in the Bible about praying in the closet, and I don't think it said put a fish sign on the door.

[Mendocino]

48. Closeted Christians

Matthew 6:5-6

[Random_Australian]

53. And don't forget 6:7. It keeps going! (IIRC)

[Mendocino]

43. I had a contractor once...

who told me how important his faith was, how he loved god, blah blah blah. However he wanted to be paid in cash and didn't want me to mention to his workers how much he was charging. I kicked him out.

[greyl]

46. Maybe it's an ethical bias, not a religious one.

Wouldn't those who choose a Jesus-fished business over another, be the ones showing religious bias?

[greendog]

49. I probably would have stopped for the carmel rolls...

...especially if they were good.

Now, if the Jesus fish was used to advertise a business where the personal integrity of the owners and their staff was important I'd run the other way.

And when I find myself working for a Jesus fish "religion on the sleeve" type of person I assume they're dishonest until they prove themselves otherwise. Some of them actually have a lot of integrity. A lot of them don't.

[MIS_UNDER_ESTIMATED]

50. I wouldn't go.....

Why would I want to go into an establishment where the people choose to believe that I do "evil deeds" just because I am not a christian? People who think they shouldn't associate with me? Just like I wouldn't frequent a "pro-white" establishment that chooses to believe that non-whites are inferior or evil, I wouldn't want to frequent a "pro-christian" establishment that chooses to believe that non-christians are inferior or evil. It is both disgusting and sad. Even if they claim to have "not made up the rules" of their religion (i.e. "don't blame me"), they still chose to follow the very religion that teaches these beliefs.

Maybe their fish symbol is marketed to keep the evil non-christians away, so they wouldn't be accused of "partaking in our evil deeds."

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers .... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord."--2 Cor.6:14, 17

2 John

9: Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10: If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

[redphish]

52. Hey, welcome to DU !

What kills me is that christians are attracted to "christian" businesses in the mis-guided belief that they are more honest or ethical than regular businesses. Simply because you see a little fishy stuck to the sign doesn't mean that the proprietor is really christian and if they are, it doesn't mean that they practice what they preach.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

51. There is a law firm in Tallahassee

who uses a Star of David in their ad, and I have to admit I would choose them because everybody knows Jewish lawyers are the best.

Okay, that's racism. But you know what I mean. But would I go to a lawyer with a fish sign? I DON'T THINK SO! I probably also wouldn't go to one with an anarchy symbol, either.

[skyblue]

54. You go Sir!!!! Exactly what I'd do. Except maybe argue about theology if

you can get a word in edgewise. They're probably so full of Spirit that they can't see the Light, tho'.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

55. I think it's probably cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I don't regard putting a fish emblem outside your place of business as a crime deserving to be punished, and I certainly don't think it's worth inconveniencing oneself non-trivially to punish it.