The explosion of the evangelical movement scares me, and it shouldn't.

[GOPBasher]

The evangelical movement is absolutely exploding across the country. Membership in these conservative evangelical churches is soaring. Evangelicals put all of their time and effort into converting others to their beliefs, so it's going to keep growing. I've heard many different estimates on how many evangelicals are in the country, some as low as 10% and some as high as 47%. The most common estimate I've heard is 25% (only including white evangelicals). Including those of all ethnicities, it's probably at least 1/3 of the country. So, why does this scare me?

This obviously SHOULDN'T scare me at all. The Bible contains thousands of references to helping the poor and needy; making peace, not war; and protecting the earth and respecting it as God's creation (not to mention that pollution and the rapid consumption of natural resources hurts PEOPLE, not just the earth). So why does it scare me?

For starters, the vast majority of at least white evangelicals seem to only care about two things: abortion and homosexuality, both of which we're on the "wrong" of in their eyes. Because of those too issues, the Republicans may be on their way to a permanent majority, despite public opposition to their other domestic policies and growing discomfort with their foreign policy. But there's more to my fear.

Honestly, this belief that one religion is the correct one, and those who believe any other faith are going to damned forever, is simply dangerous in my eyes. Please understand what I'm saying here. I DO NOT think it's bigotry or intolerance. Evangelicals, please don't think I have any problems with your beliefs. I understand what you think: We're all sinners; none can get to heaven by himself or herself, because our sin makes us fall short of God's glory; thus, we need Jesus Christ to save us. I understand that belief, and have not a single thing against it.

However, it seems to me that beliefs like that can cause major divisions in society, even if you don't intend it too. Plus, if you really believe that people better be Christians or else they're go to hell forever, wouldn't you want to use government to push that belief on people? Use government to "save" them? Why would you support the separation of church and state if you honestly think people have to be Christians to be saved from an eternity of suffering?

It seems like this belief will lead us closer to a theocracy. And remember, because of these beliefs, tens of millions of evangelicals are out there trying to convert others. So, the movement will continue to grow larger and stronger. Since they keep converting people, doesn't this mean that at some point, Evangelicals will be 50% of the population? Then 60%? Then 70%? I mean, it's not like other religions are out there competing with evagelizers of their own. It's only conservative Protestants who do this. Will this movement keep growing and growing and eventually make this country a Christian Theocracy?

I'd like to hear opinions on this. I especially would like to hear from liberal evangelicals who still support the separation of church and state.

By the way, I really didn't mean to bash evangelicals in this post. If I said something that offended you, I'm truly sorry.

[democrat in Tallahassee]

1. Many join, but do they post any figures on how many stay?

It's an emotional thing to join but I bet many don't hang around long. I'd like to see those numbers myself. The backslide numbers must be tremendous.

[GOPBasher]

2. Well, that's true. I didn't think of that. n/t

[Timebound]

3. Don't believe the numbers.

Many, many people are leaving the Church as well (even in a Red State like mine). I left...I got tired of the contradictions and the lies.

[GOPBasher]

7. Yeah, those leaving that sect is something

I didn't even take into account. Good point. I didn't think of that.

[NickofTime]

4. You're Wrong About Numbers

There is no evangelical explosion. They just counted several times as they wander from one church to another. Each change of membership gets counted as a "new evangelical".

http://www.rickross.com/reference/fundamentalists/fund152.html|Hard to Track>

[GOPBasher]

10. That's interesting to know.

That's a strange way of counting "new evangelicals." lol

[stray cat]

12. I think you are right about that and I think the numbers are inflated.

[Bluzmann57]

5. Not sure if this will make sense or not

but I think Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are two different breeds. The fundamentalists are truly the scary ones, in my opinion. They are intolerant and non-inclusive. The type of religion I grew up with taught inclusion, tolerance, kindness, and so on. I think true evangelicals probably espouse these values too. Fundamentalists quite obviously don't. However, some so called evangelicals shut out conservative African American church goers during the Civil Rights movement in the '60's and the Black people have never forgotten this. Had they been more inclusive way back when, the face of not only religion, but indeed America may be vastly different than it is now. In short, as a lapsed protestant, I do not think evangelicals are harmful and do indeed believe in separation of church and state, while fundamentalists want the church to be the state, a theocracy if you will. Just my two cents worth.

[GOPBasher]

6. You made good points.

I agree that fundamentalists are the truly scary ones, but that's a very small percentage of the population, so they don't have the political muscle to scare me. Evangelicals, however, do have the political strength to make a huge difference; in fact they have already. Now I agree that most evangelicals are generally good people, but when it comes to their belief that everyone must be a Christian or else it's hell for eternity, I don't see how they'd still support the separation of church and state. I don't know, I'm probably just a paranoid freak or something. :shrug:

[Tux]

21. I don't trust

Either Evangelicals and fundies. At this point, I'm a skeptic anytime someone says their Christian. Evangelicals just want a theocracy and kill all that disagree with them. No compassion, no acceptance, and everything is the work of Satan. I say fight them tooth and nail till the end. Just for survival of our species. If they have control of the gov and find out Jesus isn't coming back, they'll nuke the planet. Out of fear.

[MemphisTiger]

This is not true

I'm an evangelical and I don't think everything is the work of Satan.

[Tux]

37. You're rare

Most people in my town that are Evangelical, Baptist, Protestant, or fundie do think that. It's impossible to buy Buddhist books, manga, or even Linux magazines without them giving dirty looks or leaving some pamphlet saying I'm going to Hell.

KDE isn't perfect but it's far from Hell.

[MemphisTiger]

42. I guess I haven't heard of magna...

what is that and why do some evangelicals look down on it and Linux magazines?

[queeg]

8. It should scare you

Unlike what you may believe about religions in that they are peaceful and will help the poor and needy etc. The new Evangelicals have nothing to do with that. They are concerned with Only membership, money, and hatred.

The sheer contempt of those not of their religion should be enough to convince you of what they stand for. You are either one of them and that can be tenuous or you are pure satan. I saw a 10 or 12 year old girl on TV the other week who had become so brainwashed that a person of any religion not hers was point blank, "going to hell."

When a large group of people take to themselves and De-Humanize the rest of society you should become alarmed. De-humanization allows them to disregard, and ignore, and it in the end allows them to kill others in the name of their go who they see as non-human.

Look to the people that have killed in the name of god for their pro-life views. These people have placed a lesser value on some peoples lives who they believe to be un-worthy. Take this a step further and allow these people to be in power on say a school board. At that point any thought un-prescribed in "their" bible becomes heretical, and you may become in their eyes less than human. (remember, god hates fags, and remember also how gleeful some of these people were at the loss of life in indonesia from the tsunami)

You should be very frightened of these people. I find most of them to be nothing more than people that should be committed to a mental asylum. They are loaded weapons walking the streets, and they should be treated as such. Many of them I pity as their intelligence has been wasted with religion.

For a mental exercise just imagine if all the time and effort that has been wasted in the last 50 years in religious fundamentalism had instead been put into engineering, we would be living on Mars and Earth would be a paradise of understanding and research for us to take on the rest of the universe. Instead we huddle in caves barely having fire because Urgh the fortune teller saw bad goat entrails yesterday.

[GOPBasher]

13. You make good points, but

I think the ones of whom you speak are the really hard-core fundamentalists. I don't think most evangelicals are quite that bad, though they definitely hold to their opinion that anyone not of their religion is going to hell.

[queeg]

16. I have yet to find a fundie that deep down --

Had not already deep down considered me less than human for my views. These people have no problem with the way they are they are able to voice things like "Black are less intelligent" or "all Mexicans are lazy" and have absolutle no regard for it. This is the way they are, the way they have been indoctrinated and brainwashed. And when they are in the religious state I find them to be violent and dangerous.

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. It is creepy.

I have an evangelical relative who had no problem telling me to my face in my own kitchen that she knew I was dammned to hell. The mindset does include the perspective that not only are not all human beings created equal, but some are not considered quite human. To me, that flings the door wide open for another holocaust.

[mongo]

9. How many does it really take to turn us into a theocracy?

I don't think the majority of Germans in the 30's were hard core Nazi's either. We are at saturation levels now for these fundies to change (or just ignore) the constitution and declare the US a "Christian" nation.

Hell, they are already doing that today, they just haven't managed yet to outlaw abortion, re-criminalize homosexuality, and sanitize our TV's and our society to be in harmony with their "correct" way of thinking.

[GOPBasher]

14. Yeah, that's so scary. It seems like now they have the power to

do whatever they want.

[Tux]

22. Consitution

What they realy want to do is to ban all religions except Christianity by means of a Constitutional admendment which also says non-Christians are non-humans. Then they can try to convert us and if that fails, burn us at the stake. It's that simple.

[Pacifist Patriot]

29. Exactly

[stray cat]

11. I'm a liberal Christian - maybe an evangelical?

Jesus said render onto Caesar the things that are Caesars and onto God the things that are Gods. To him faith was an individual responsbility. In many ways when Christianity was made a state religion by Constantine it was the worst thing that could happen to Christianity.

However, I think you are right that some Christian groups, hopefully just a vocal minority would like to see a 'moral theocracy" if not in name in fact. I really do think its a minority. Their voice promotes hatred and self-rightousness that I think turns off most Americans - even Christians. I think this vocal group is being used by the republicans but it is on its death bed and in its arrogance is overreaching and creating a backlash. I also think that some progressive Christians are becoming more vocal and involved in politics to counteract this group of fundamentalists. Honestly, the radical fundamentalists are an embarrassment.

Also time and effort in evangelism doesn't always encourage belief it often discourages it a great deal. Contrary to what it seems even Christians in the red states don't want to see a theocracy - they just have trouble relating to the portrait the republicans have painted of democrats as a liberal, whiny elite. We need to change that picture.

[GOPBasher]

15. I couldn't agree more with that last statement.

"they just have trouble relating to the portrait the republicans have painted of democrats as a liberal, whiny elite. We need to change that picture."

That's true. But they're being duped into supporting a theocracy.

[Pacifist Patriot]

30. I wonder if this isn't another case of definition shift

Evangelical, as a term, seems to be moving from protestant Christianity that founds its teaching on the Gospels and salvation by faith

to


a Christian church believing in the sole authority and inerrancy of the Bible, in salvation only through regeneration, and in a spiritually transformed personal life. Characterized by ardent or crusading enthusiasm.

I think a lot of people now are using "fundamentalist" and "evangelical" interchangeably which only adds to the confusion.

[Dob Bole]

17. The obvious solution is to get evangelicals on OUR side.....

If evangelical churches are growing, and they have doctrines that line up with our political philosophy, why are they voting Republican?

That's the right direction to be asking questions in. Evangelicals are nothing to be afraid of (disclosure: I are one) but how do we get them to vote for their BEST beliefs and their BEST interests?

[GOPBasher]

18. Well I agree with that.

As I said in my original post, the Bible has thousands of passages about helping the poor, making peace, etc. So, of course they (you all) should be on our side. On the vast majority of issues, the Dems are more Christian than the Repubs. So, I agree, our strategy should be to get evangelicals on our side.

The only thing is, when it comes to separation of church and state, I don't see why evangelical Christians would be with us. It seems that on that issue, it'd be natural for them to be on the other side. After all, if you believe that people must be Christians or else they're eternally condemned, wouldn't you want to government to actively promote Christianity above other religion? I'd like to know your opinion on this, if you don't mind. (Is it too personal?)

[Dob Bole]

24. well, I'm Baptist...

and Separation of Church and state is a traditional Baptist doctrine since the 1600s*. So......pass!

*the exception is the Southern Baptist Convention, who changed their position in 1991.

[GOPBasher]

25. That's interesting. Thanks for the info! n/t

[Tux]

23. Their best interests

is a theocracy. Nothing less. It is the basis of Christianity to dominate and kill non-believers to maintain a holy society. just look at the history of Christianity. They started to kill Gnostics not long after Jesus died.

[GOPBasher]

26. That's the *leadership*, not the rank-and-file.

The vast majority of Christians do not want a theocracy. I agree that the Southern Baptist Convention, the Moral Majority, the Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, etc. really want a theocracy. The the tens of millions who follow them are being duped into supporting things they don't like because of a few issues: abortion, gay rights, etc.

[Tux]

38. I'm harsh on Christians in general

And I'm sorry but my town in infested with freaks. If my gf and I can get some peace while in a bookstore getting Buddhist and pagan books, magazines, Linux materials, manga, and Playboy, I'll calm down. But don't tell me I'm going to Hell for supporting communism (Linux user), that I'm a sodomizer (Playboy), anti-American (manga), godless (Buddhist), and heathern that is outlawed in the Bible (pagan).

[GOPBasher]

40. That sounds like a pretty intolerant place.

I'm sorry you live there. :-(

[MemphisTiger]

33. That is absolutly untrue

You should learn something about what you are talking about. Christianity is NOT about Killing non-believers. We may want them to become believers, but not kill.

[sam sarrha]

19. LINK to Christian Mafia Expose'.. by Wayne Madsen

this worth the read... answered a lot of my questions... with a lot of info on the Christian Fellowship..

the Evangelical movement is politically sponsored by a linage from early Nazi philosophers.. who inspired the NEOCON movenent.. Carl rove struts down the hall of the white house whistling 'Onward Christian Soldiers'.

you got to read this.
http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia.htm

[GOPBasher]

20. Wow. Scary stuff. Thanks for the link. n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

27. I was a bit chilled when I read Moyers' column of January 30...

free registration required

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5211218.html

And something I wrote as a reaction...


http://www.unitarianminister.org/feb15.htm

[Maat]

36. Good letter, Pacifist Patriot!

It goes to the heart of the matter. I keep getting this from my RRR (Radical Religious Right) relatives, "We believe in Biblical inerrancy." I'll translate, "We believe in the narrow, bigoted views that our pastor has told us are our views. We have taken a few quotes from the Bible - King James Version - and given them our own spin."

[MemphisTiger]

31. This is not really that simple

making peace, not war

This is not true, exactly. Nations are allowed to defend themselves. I think this is in Romans.


...wouldn't you want to use government to push that belief on people? Use government to "save" them? Why would you support the separation of church and state if you honestly think people have to be Christians to be saved from an eternity of suffering?

Because God gave us free will. You can't make someone accept Jesus into their heart. They have to open themselves up freely and offer their lives to living for God. Many proclaim the gospel, but few live it. For those many who simply proclaim, they will be met at before Jesus in Heaven and he will say "I never knew you."

[Tux]

39. Mmmmm

Many proclaim the gospel, but few live it.

Good point. Can be said for any religion/philosophy too. Earlier you said that your an Evangelical that doesn't want a theocracy. I hope there are more of you. Do you have links to these relaistic Evangelical Web sites?

[MemphisTiger]

43. There are alot of us...

unfortunaltly the the loud ones who do want a theocracy are the ones that everybody hears. I don't see anything wrong with these people trying to spread the word, but they need to be careful to spread God's word and not their own. I think many of them mean well, but have been led astray by false prophets. The web site I would normally send is down, I don't know if it will be back up. If I find another one that was as eloquent, I will post it or PM you with it.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[More Than A Feeling]

34. Justification for the separation of church and state from the bible

There is the quote "render unto Caesar the things which are Caesars, and to God the things which are God's"

Also, when Jesus was in the desert being tempted, Satan offered him the kingdoms of the world if Jesus would submit to him, and Jesus refused. By this, we know that the temptation to rule in the name of Christ is sent from Satan. If Jesus himself wouldn't accept worldly dominion, then neither should those who follow in his footsteps.

I don't usually consider myself evangelical (depends on what day it is;)) but it is certainly something to consider.

[GOPBasher]

35. Nice quotes.

I often use that first passage to justify separation of church and state to my evangelical friends. "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to God what is God's." As far as that other passage, I've read it, but I never looked at it quite like that. Thanks!

[Dcitizen]

41. Maybe economic is one of the key issues of religion.

Christ made five barley loaves and two fish were more than adequate to feed the huge crowd gathered around him.