I finally attended a UU church today....does anyone else?

[Bouncy Ball]

I know this isn't the religion forum, but I thought it was appropriate for this one (I hope?).

I've been meaning to go to a UU (Universal Unitarian) church for months now. I finally did it. I am VERY gun-shy when it comes to churches, because of past experiences (I'll never forget when a lay minister in a Methodist church told me "peace is overrated").

This kind is very open and liberal (in fact they call themselves part of a "liberal religious/spiritual community"). There is no creed, or set of beliefs, except that all life has dignity and value and to work for peace and social justice.

Immediately I knew it was different. There weren't just white people there. There weren't just straight couples there. People were Buddhist, pagan, Catholic (lapsed, I guess?), Jewish, Christian, agnostic, and atheist.

But the BIGGEST difference? Using your brain was encouraged, not discouraged. No offense to anyone who attends mainstream churches, but I haven't noticed a lot of questioning things and encouragement to constantly learn new things and use reason, etc in the churches I've attended. The sign out front read: "Reason is a PARTNER to faith." I've seen other churches with signs that said "Reason is the enemy of faith" so I'm assuming it was in reaction to that.

The lay minister quoted Emerson, the Dalai Lama, and Martin Luther King. He talked about working for peace and promoting social justice. He spoke out against racism and sexism. (!!!!)

AMAZING. I have NEVER heard such things in a church before, but always thought I should.

And instead of just being preached at and leaving, there is a presentation on some topic, then a forum afterwards where you are encouraged to ask questions about the topic and discuss it.

What a wild concept. Kids in the children's religious education classes are taught comparative world religions (appropriate to age). There is a Pagan group that meets on Thursday evenings, a Buddhist group that meets on Tuesdays, and they work closely with local peace organizations, etc.

I couldn't believe it all. And it was so informal. Just take your coffee in with you. I was dressed in black slacks and a dressy sweater and suit jacket and was the most dressed up person there.

Anyway, I wanted to share this because I was happy to finally find a place my family and I could explore different areas of thought and where reason is not out of bounds, where we could finally feel comfortable questioning our own beliefs--that's the main thing that made us NOT fit in with traditional churches. My husband and daughter asked me to go check it out first (they are even more gun-shy about it than I am) and when I told my husband there's actually a history study group, he got very excited and now can't wait to go next Sunday.

Where the topic will be what American leadership should be! Should be interesting!

I know right after the election it was suggested we start going to fundie churches to try to understand them, get to know them, win them over, etc. But I've been to those churches. I know what they're about, they're no mystery to me. I would always end up feeling sickened when I would go--everything's about sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, power, power, power, power, power. It's ridiculous. It's like they love feeling bad about themselves and fearful about the world. And to be quite honest, it's cult-like. No thanks. I'd rather find a group of like-minded people. For once in my life. And I think I just did.

What a great feeling.

[CindyDale]

1. Yes, I've been before

Though not in years. There is one not far from here. I should go, would be a good idea.

Thanks for reminding me about them.

[Bouncy Ball]

6. Hey, good deal!

Just go to the national website and click on "find a congregation."

That's what I did.

http://www.uua.org/

[proud patriot]

2. I was married at a UU church

just earlier today was thinking of going back to it .

Like you I'm very leary of Church . I'll call them
this week and see when they have gatherings .

[Bouncy Ball]

4. I think if I go to this one for a while, I might

lose that leeriness. It will take a while, but it was such a positive experience.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. My wife started going to UU a few months ago.

After spending all of her life as a Catholic including the schools. To say that she's happier with the UU's would be a massive understatement.

[Bouncy Ball]

5. That's exactly how I feel.

The lay minister of this church once studied to be a priest but then left the Catholic church because he realized he was extremely unhappy with that decision.

[candy]

7. What IS a fundie church,anyway?

I used to be a Catholic and talk about guilt and sin!!The Catholic Church has them all beat!

In my area,Massachusetts,most Catholics are Democrats so what exactly are you talking about when you refer to fundie churches?

[Bouncy Ball]

9. Well I'm talking about Christian fundamentalists.

Used to be the only real "fundies" around here (I live in Texas) were the non-denominational churches.

But the "fundie" mindset has seeped over into mainline denominations, as well.

It's not so much just guilt, but that every message is so negative. No emphasis at all on working for peace, helping the poor (beyond the almost obligatory canned food drives they might carry out from time to time), a support for republican-run governments, even endorsing candidates to the congregation, etc.

[candy]

30. Thanks---I was confused (as usual). n/t

[98geoduck]

95. "UU members burn question marks in peoples lawns"

I forgot who said it, but quite amusing.

[Virginian]

112. I heard that joke today.

If you want a Uniterian to leave town, you burn a question mark on his lawn.

[havocmom]

13. Most of us mean those who insist on absolute, literal interpation of the

bible and then wanna cram that down the throats of others. That 'you're either with us or with the axis of evil' sort of mindset.

[Bouncy Ball]

15. Yes, that too, thanks!

:thumbsup:

[candy]

31. Thanks,your explanation helps clarify things for me. n/t

[displacedtexan]

8. As a long-time UU...

Have you heard the old UU joke?

Be sure to take notes during the sermon.

There might be test.

Seriously, I'm glad you enjoyed the experience! How many committee chairs have invited you to join in already?

[Bouncy Ball]

11. Heh, none. This was my first time

and I stayed for the little coffee break because I wanted to talk to the minister, but then I left. I was VERY happy with it, more than I ever have been with a church.

But I'm sure it will happen. ;-)

[Athame]

16. Another longtime UU here with another joke

A deceased person gets to the pearly gates and on the gate there is a sign that reads: Heaven

Just below it there is a sign pointing off a ways that reads: Discussion about Heaven

Being a good UU, sh heads off to the discussion.

**********************
Just remember, the coffee is sacred, but the word "church" might be poison.

Glad you felt good at a UU congregation. Many before you have described that feeling of coming home at last. I did, more than 20 years ago and even though it is not always easy being a UU, I have never regretted it for a moment.

Our Unitarian Society this morning held a commitment service for ALL committed couples, celebrating love ALL ways.

[Bouncy Ball]

17. Didn't know that about the word "church"

They pretty freely called it a church this morning, so I guess it's ok here.

But true, it is more of a congregation than anything else.

That's a good joke I would NOT have gotten before this morning! LOL!

[Athame]

27. UUs have congregational polity

Meaning that each congregation decides for itself how they want to present themselves and it is always changing. They belong to the Unitarian Universalist Association, which differs from a denomination in that there is no creed or specifications for membership, so you will find that each congregation is a little bit different. Some are more "churchy" than others, especially in the East coast. There was a strong humanist fellowship movement in the 30s thru the 60s that brought many groups together who were decidedly not Christian, but Humanist, and then in the 80s and 90s the women's spirituality (goddess) movement, Pagans, and indigenous peoples began to be very strong and prominent, creating some REALLY interesting conversations. Still, once you have been around a few of them, you can pretty much pick a UU out of the crowd==or should I say out of the parking lot, by the bumper stickers. A bunch of liberal rabble rousers, we are.

[Bouncy Ball]

32. MY KINDA PEOPLE!

[Eloriel]

64. My favorite UU joke

UU is a place for intellectuals who like to get dressed on Sunday mornings to go. :evilgrin:

Good, good folks.

[blondeatlast]

78. Me in a nutshell!

I never heard that one before, thanks!

[Radio_Lady]

91. The community in Massachusetts was referred to as...

JEWnitarians! We're pretty casual here in Oregon -- sweatshirts, jeans, sandals, whatever.

But that goes for a lot of workplaces, too.

By the way, we go to the West Hills Unitarian Universalist Fellowship here in Oregon. The group has chosen to be "lay led" -- meaning there is no minister.

[rainbow4321]

103. Heh, heh...when someone tells my kids to wear their "church clothes"...

like to a school performance or some other activity that fancy clothes are required and that phrase is used, being UU I always think "Um, jeans or shorts??"....

[gorbal]

92. I don't get the joke

Am I bad?

[havocmom]

10. Years ago, I took my daughter to hear Gloria Steinem when she spoke in

Tucson. It was great. All age groups, all races, all different kinds of different spiritual/religious affiliations represented by the attendees. She started things off by asking people to shout out books they have been reading and recommend to others. All sorts of great things were suggested.

The event was held at a UU chruch. My daughter and I decided, then and there, some churches really were more interested in sharing wisdom and strength than in pushing an agenda. Some are more interested in meeting the needs of community than using the community to meet the church's needs.

Yep, it can be a really a positive experience. She occasionally goes to a UU Church 16 years after that first time. I am sad there is no UU Church where I live now.

[Bouncy Ball]

12. Wow that middle paragraph said it all.

"...some churches really were more interested in sharing wisdom and strength than in pushing an agenda. Some are more interested in meeting the needs of community than using the community to meet the church's needs."

So true.

[dsc]

14. It sounds like a neat church

but there are several churches out there that have racial mixed and otherwise diverse congregations (UCC churches for example). I admit though that they don't discuss the sermon points afterward. I only went to one UU church and it was a very long time ago. I honestly don't recall if it was a service or just a concert (I was on a choir tour at the time). I think it was a mini service.

[Sparkly]

18. I used to work in a UU church

I was Dance Director -- I choreographed for their resident modern dance group for services, performed, and taught classes. I loved it there. It was challenging because the themes of the services were very far-ranging and often abstract, so it wasn't always easy to make a dance that connected. But what a great thing to have dancers in the services!

(I was nervous about "church" when I first interviewed for the job -- "liturgical" dance? Would they ask me questions about Jesus? But then I realized there's no strict "liturgy." The first service I attended, I came in just as someone was saying, "Our readings today are from the New York Times and the Washington Post..." I realized right then that this was going to be different from all my expectations about what church is, and it was.)

[Bouncy Ball]

23. Heh I would about fall over if I heard that!

I guess I better get used to the idea! LOL!

[Pacifist Patriot]

137. Wow, I've never been to a UU service with liturgical dance.

Must have been quite a church. My current congregation is rather small. We don't even have a full-time music director, just a volunteer from the congregation. That sounds so neat!

[deutsey]

19. Yes, I'm a UU

I'm so glad you had a positive experience. I remember also having similar reservations about attending a UU service for the first time. Like you, it felt like I found my home the moment I got there.

That was four years ago at a different fellowship than my family and I now attend. We're living in a somewhat conservative area now, so it's really great having our thriving liberal faith community in the midst of it.

UUs basically believe that there are many paths to truth. These paths can be theistic, atheistic, mystical, rational, humanistic, etc. Most of us recognize that none of us has the ultimate path, but follow the one that is most meaningful to each of us individually. At the same time, we honor and believe we can even learn from the paths followed by others, and we recognize that together we are all part of a larger mosaic.

Thomas Jefferson, in one of his more overly optimistic moments, wrote that he believed everyone would be Unitarian in the future.

That certainly isn't the case, of course, but anyone who is looking for a refuge from the religious extremism in this country today might want to consider looking into UUism.

If anyone is searching for such a spiritual home, one that welcomes you for who you are and encourages you to discover and share your own path, try a UU gathering near you.

www.uua.org

PS: I'm considering becoming a UU minister, so I may be a tad biased. :evilgrin:

[GoneOffShore]

86. Good luck on the ministerial studies

When I was in university 35 years ago, I was considering the same thing. But I was academically deficient in all the areas that were then required. Especially if I had headed off to Yale Divinity, which at the time was one of the two places you could go to get 'revved up' (Starr King School was the other - named after Thomas Starr King http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/thomasstarrking.html ).
I'm now a lapsed Unitarian (as my Jesuit friend says, 'That's an oxymoron!', but hey there it is).
You sound like you'll do well.

[deutsey]

118. Thank you!

The main problem I'm facing at the moment is how do I pay for seminary and feed my kids at the same time. I may be on the ten-year plan as far as getting my credentials.

[Pacifist Patriot]

151. Yep, that's the tough part but there are "back door" methods.

I would have loved to have attended Harvard, M-L or Starr King but alas it wasn't in the budget or our lifestyle. Where there is a will there is a way.

[Pacifist Patriot]

133. LOL! Yes, I have to admit to some bias as well.

Good luck!

[Stop_the_War]

20. They have atheists there? Wow

I'm atheist. But this church has atheists? I would like to know how they fit in to it all. Maybe I should go to one of these UU churches lol.

[Bouncy Ball]

25. Well, to be fair, they don't really call it a "church"

more like a congregation.

And yes, I met two atheists this morning at the service. Since there is no creed or accepted set of beliefs, it is quite easy for atheists to attend.

Example: this morning's service went like this--people brought their coffee in, made announcements of stuff coming up, they lit a candle at the front, sang a song (none of the songs belong to one particular faith or another--I looked through the book to discover that), sang another song, then a lady took all the kids up to the front and read them a cool, short book about "Sister Earth and Brother Moon" then the kids went off for classes on comparative religions (they teach them about major world religions, but they don't endorse any particular one), then we said hey to each other, chit chat for a minute, then pass around the basket for a buck or two, then the presentation (which in this case was about how music helps people) then sang another song, then put out the candle, go get more coffee cake and coffee, come back and talk to the presenter about the topic they spoke on.

After that they had a potluck lunch, but I had already left. I didn't bring a dish, so I didn't feel right eating it, though I know they wouldn't have cared one bit.

I did notice a lot of pamphlets about UU and how they welcome people of all races, beliefs and sexualities, etc. And a lot of "Boondocks" and "non sequiter" cartoons pinned up on the bulletin board (liberal cartoons). Hee.

[Crowdance]

44. Another bit of UU humor--Why is UU music so bad?

Because we're always reading ahead to see if we agree with the words.

[Bouncy Ball]

46. I actually laughed out loud when I read that.

Wow, I shoulda been a UUer all along. I'm already a DUer, might as well be a UUer. Bad joke.

[blondeatlast]

79. I attend UU, where are you all getting these?

I love them!

[Tux]

162. My local UU

Had the kids make a fake sermon with UU jokes in it.

http://uubgky.org/uujoke.htm

[Az]

163. My friend also wrote another book called The Church Where People Laugh

Its full of UU jokes. And there are a ton of them. Check it out at www.UniUniques.com

[Pacifist Patriot]

129. LOL! I cannot believe I have never heard that before.

[Kazak]

45. Sounds real familiar.

Where in Texas, if you don't mind my asking?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

108. Regarding having no creed:

My husband and I were married in a UU church nearly 40 years ago, and the joke then was that the dogma was limited to belief in "one god at most." We wrote our own service and had a ball!

[Pacifist Patriot]

154. I've also heard...

"Believe in one god, more or less."

[deutsey]

35. Oh, yes. Humanism is a big part of modern Unitarianism

Unitarianism was initially a liberal Christian movement against orthodox Calvinism. It grew out of the Enlightenment (although it has roots going back to the early Christian church). Basically Unitarianism gets its name from the belief in the unity of one God as opposed to Trinitarian views of God as three.

Here's how James Freeman Clarke defined "liberal Christianity" and "rational Christianity" in the 1880s:

LESSON XVII.
LIBERAL AND RATIONAL CHRISTIANITY.


§ 56. Liberal Christianity, or freedom in religion, does not mean liberty to believe what we choose, but freedom to seek the truth anywhere, everywhere, and always. It means that we should not only be willing that others should differ from us, but ready to help them to inquire freely, even if their inquiries lead them to believe what we consider erroneous. It means that we are not to judge each other (Matt. vii. 1-5; Rom. xiv. 1-23), nor to submit our own belief to the judgment of any church or any human authority.

§ 57. Rational Christianity does not mean that we are to reject all beliefs which we do not now see to be reasonable, or to make reason the only source of truth. But it means that we are to test every belief by the light of our reason, and seek to understand clearly what we think and why we think it.

http://www.americanunitarian.org/manual.htm (NOTE: This site is not affiliated with the UUA...in fact, it is basically a liberal Christian organization that identifies with Unitarianism when it was still a Christian movement).

Universalism was a also a Christian movement that rejected Calvinism and asserted that God's salvation is available universally to everyone.

Eventually, the Unitarian movement in particular went beyond its Christian context and in the early 20th century was very much influenced by science, humanism, and even atheism. In the '60s, I believe, the Unitarians and the Universalists joined together form the UUA. There still remains underlying tensions, as you can imagine, among theists and atheists, but based on my experience at two fellowships, I can honestly say that I've seen a pluralism of viewpoints co-existing together. It's pretty amazing.

Here's a nice summary of UU history:

http://www.uunhf.org/unitarian/history/

[Nay]

37. Oh, yeah, atheists are welcomed. My hubby and I were co-presidents

of a UU congregation in the South, and we are both total atheists. We attended for 10 years in that town, but now we are in a different state and the congregations here (there are 2 UU churches) just aren't the same. One is more a Christian (though very liberal) congregation, and the other does quite a bit on the New Age side. I have considered going back to the New Agey one, since it also has a humanist study group, Buddhist study group, etc., and I feel like I need to have like-minded folks around me so I can survive the next 4 years of the asshole-in-chief.

[Orangepeel]

58. atheists can want all the "fringe" benefits of a church

or, that are supposed to be associated with a church -- community, learning, singing, philosophical discussions about morality and growth as a person.

I've been to a UU church and read a bit about them. There is a creed, but it is one that most secular humanists would agree to:

We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote

The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html

[Az]

83. The minister of the first UU church I went to also Pres of the Humanist

Specifically the American Humanist Association. Lots of atheists and humanists wandering around that church.

[rainbow4321]

105. Athiests, Jews, Christians, Wiccan...

take your pick..anyone is welcome.


Here in Texas, our dumb ass State Treasurer Strayhorn <mother to shrub's McClellan dude> tried to keep a local UU church from getting their tax exempt status because the congregation didn't have one, single belief..then the media got wind of it and lawyers got involved and she was forced to back down. UU is recognized world wide and by all US states and Texas decides to diss us....hell, even the standardized tests at my kid's school has UU as a "what religion are you?" option under the demographics section they ask the kids to fill out!!

[Pacifist Patriot]

127. My congregation has an atheist society!

They fit in just fine thank you. ;)

[cags]

21. I've been meaning to try a UU church too

but I didn't want to go by myself and I've been waiting for my husband to go with me.

I'm in Texas too, North of Dallas I was thinking of the one in Dallas
Do you know anything about that one?

[Bouncy Ball]

29. There are a few in Dallas

go to http://www.uua.org

and click on find a congregation and then put in Texas.

You'll see all of them.

There's a really huge on in Dallas, and then a few smaller ones. If you are north of Dallas, there might be one closer to you, too.

If I waited for my husband to go with me, we'd wait forever. Finally I said "I'll go and check it out and I'll tell you what it was like."

He was VERY impressed with what I told him and that is no easy feat. Churches have WAY turned him off in the past and he is a spiritual person.

On edit, here's one in Carrollton:

http://www.HorizonUU.org

and Dallas: http://www.dallasuu.org

and Denton: http://www.dentonuuf.org (that one looks VERY active, I think I might make the drive up there some Sunday just to check it out--plus Denton is a bit of a liberal area, anyway.)

[Kazak]

48. The Denton Fellowship is beautiful!

My wife and I were married there, and my father is their former minister. :)

[Bouncy Ball]

50. Really???

I was really impressed with the stuff on their website, and even though it's quite a long haul, I am tempted to check out their services.

[Kazak]

51. Yep,...

I can safely recommend them to you. :)

[cags]

53. I was thinking of the huge one in Dallas, A place to get lost in.LOL

[rainbow4321]

102. There is one in...

Plano, Carrollton, Dallas, Garland, Southlake.

Or go to http://www.uua.org/CONG/index.php and look for a congregation near you.

The one in Plano is near Parker Rd and Spring Creek Parkway (where they intersect over in East Plano)....next to that gigantic Methodist Church.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

114. I've been to the one in Oak Cliff

It's a great congregation and everyone is lovely.

http://www.oakcliffuu.com/

[Bouncy Ball]

22. Something else I forgot to mention:

I think one of the things that made my husband and I quit going to church altogether is we never quite felt like we "fit" in mainstream, traditional Christian churches. We would hear lessons or Bible verses quoted and question them or look at them from a different angle and the reception to that wasn't exactly a good one.

So after a warm initial welcome, we'd pretty quickly find ourselves on the social fringes of a church or the constant target of a few members just dedicated to "get our hearts straightened out" as one well-meaning woman once told us she thought it was her mission to do.

Our hearts were fine. But we thought maybe there WAS something wrong with us after a while, so we just quit going. Better than going and feeling like we couldn't really question anything, couldn't really open our mouths. Oh we COULD, it's not like we were forbidden to ask questions, but the slow, inevitable cold shoulder that came after was always a nice painful little rejection to bear. (On edit, I wonder how many churches even realize they do this to people?)

I had a feeling that might not happen in a congregation that counts atheists as part of its membership.

[earthboundmisfit]

24. My teenage daughter turned me on to UU years ago - I couldn't believe it!

She had attended a couple of times with a friend from school, and I was WAY leery, and concerned for her, too... Then she told me how COMPLETELY different it was from traditional denominations - whew. So we both went, and it was such a RELIEF to me to find so many like-minded yet free-thinking people! And here in Oklahoma, even!!! It was quite a happy discovery.

[Bouncy Ball]

26. "Happy discovery" is a great way to put it!

When I think even my very anti-church husband would like it, that's a BIG deal.

[bostonbabs]

28. The "Guru" within

...the first 'sermon" I heard was about the" Guru within"
it's about your dogma not anyone elses.Raised as a devote catholic I was hooked.I love UU and Science of Mind too.

[progressivebydesign]

33. I attended an UU church before.. LOVED it. Not one near me now. nt

[Bouncy Ball]

34. Here's a list

for your state, unless you mean DC:

http://www.uua.org/CONG/results.php?s_method=state&state=WA&submit3=GO%21

But it's a big state, you might not be near any of those.

[Pacifist Patriot]

130. Have you looked into the Church of the Larger Fellowship?

[cynatnite]

36. I've thought about it

I've stayed away from churches of any kind because of past experiences. The way they go on about sin, going to hell and all that is just too much for me.

My kids go to the baptist church down the road, but it's something we've always left up to them. The teenager goes because it's where her friends are and the youngest goes so he can hang around his sister.

There is one not far and I've known about it. I just haven't been too sure about attending. You've given me more to think about.

[stray cat]

38. Presbyterian USA has some good intellectual churches as well.

They are out there but sometimes they take some looking. Glad you found a place you like!

[GeorgeBushytail]

41. What is the Presbyterian USA's position on gay issues?

Gay clergy? Gay marriage? Gay rights in general?

I'm not too knowledgeable about Presbyterianism.

[LeftHander]

39. Welcome!

I am a member of a UU church.

And after all this time I still feel that feeling every time I am there.

[Kazak]

40. Born, raised, and remain UU.

'Can't imagine feeling comfortable any other way. I'm surprised UUism isn't bigger than is already is. Growing up I used to call it the oldest most storied religion you never heard of.

[Pacifist Patriot]

132. I'm working on it.

I've become an "evangelical UU." ;)

This weekend I got Bouncy Ball to a service and my parents are joining the congregation near them. I figure by the time I retire I'll have added at least 3,000 UUs to our denomination single-handedly. LOL!

[GOPBasher]

42. I'm really happy for you. I want to start going to one at some point,

but I can't right now. It's a long story, won't get into my personal life. But someday I WILL go to a UU church, and I'll gladly make by brain, my reason, an equal partner to my faith. I'd also love to get together with people of all different faiths. I think that's really cool.

[Bouncy Ball]

47. I know how you feel, though.

I started to go SO many Sundays and just couldn't make myself do it.

[bloom]

43. I've been

it UU churches as well. And I also like many things about them.


One thing I wanted to mention was - I went to a synagogue recently for a talk by an Israeli woman. I was struck by how reason was emphasized there as well.

It wasn't a regular service - but still - it seemed like a contrast to what one gets used to at Christian churches. And I got the idea that that was probably the usual for them.

Just seemed like one of those things - that many people (esp. raised Christian) wouldn't think about because they wouldn't know.

[Bouncy Ball]

49. I never realized how much reason and intellect were MISSING

from traditional services until I went to this one and was just really struck by it.

(I was raised off and on in traditional Christian churches. You are just supposed to believe. You can TALK about things in Sunday School class, but don't ask too many questions, or you'll be seen as a bother.)

[MountainLaurel]

52. Incredible, isn't it?

I grew up attending a fundie church where Catholics were considered a Mary- and icon-worshipping cult, and years later began attending a Presby church that was fairly liberal. But being single, I didn't fit in at the church, where everyone was either older than dirt or married and procreating. And, after reading about Buddhism, Taoism, ancient goddess cultures, and neopaganism, I really began to doubt that Jesus was all there was in terms of valid spirituality.

The UU church I attended was like a revelation. There were interfaith couples, single women who had adopted special needs children, old hippies, people of color, and a couple that included a transsexual. The church had a prayer circle outdoors where they regularly held events, including celebrations for the pagan holidays. They had developed a relationship with other houses of faith in the same neighborhood: Buddhist and Sikh temples, a Lutheran church (the Mormons refused to return their calls, though). There was a flower garden that church members built and maintained. The church housed a preschool coop. They talked about issues like mental illness, domestic violence, poverty, jingoism, etc. But they didn't just talk: They had a regular partnership with several social services groups, including a low-income housing complex. Those people had more morality in their little fingers than the whole of the mega church across the county attended by high profile figures like Ken Starr.

Unfortunately, I moved away from that neighborhood, and become used to sleeping in on Sundays and canoodling with my BF, but I'd start attending again in a heartbeat.

[Bouncy Ball]

55. That sounds VERY much like the congregation I went to today.

They do ALL that stuff.

In fact, I had to chuckle when I saw they have a "Spiritual Drum Group" that meets once a week. I wasn't chuckling AT that idea, just out of the pleasure of seeing something like that in a church bulletin. It was a bit surreal after a life of VERY mainstream churches.

There was a lesbian couple there who introduced me to their very charming gorgeous nine year old biracial son. He wondered why I wasn't drinking coffee and I explained I had just had so much coffee at home, I was about to float away and that cracked him up.

[cynatnite]

57. That appeals to me so much

I told my mom just yesterday that I will not attend her church. She asked me and I explained my feelings about it. She wanted to bring her preacher over to the house and I said no.

I already know it wouldn't go well when I started explaining in detail why I feel the way I feel. My mother already thinks it's the devil doing it and no amount of talking, explaining or anything will convince her that it's my brain that's doing the work and not satan.

I can accept other religions and people's various beliefs just fine. I don't have a problem with it, but I can't stand the fact that my own mother and sister thinks there is something wrong with me because I don't feel or believe the same way they do. They really think there's something wrong with me and that the devil has corrupted me.

I've tried telling them I've had issues like these since I was a kid, but it makes no difference. They expect me to respect their beliefs, but I wish they'd respect mine.

I hate feeling so out of it and out of place. I'm not even looking for like-minded people. I want to be open to others and I want them to be open to me. I want to have open and meaningful dialogue with others and not get the cold shoulder for not asking the right ones.

The more I read what others have to say, the more I'm inclined to check out the local UU church.

[peacetalksforall]

54. Thanks for this thread. I've always been interested, but assumed

UU was Christian. I didn't leave the church, the church left me, but I wasn't about to run off and change religions even though I developed an influencing interest in eastern religions. On my own, I started thinking even harder about life and its lessons then I did when I listened to epistles, gospels, sermons, and heavy duty theology courses. I declared myself a universalist with a little u.

Sounds like I would fit in. I still miss Latin and liturgical chants, though.

Do you realize that every time you write and say 'humanist, humanistic, spiritual, spiritualistic', you cause a Fundamentalist to want to break into a rant or a scream. They will condemn you; some will pray for you. You can acknowledge Pat Robertson for that.

[Bouncy Ball]

56. Wow, really? I didn't know that.

I consider myself, above all, to be spiritual. In fact, I don't believe in religious symbols (weird thing for a supposed Christian, eh?).

And I am beginning to realize I am a naturalism theist. Or a theistic naturalist, however you want to put it! That would drive them bonkers, eh? Thanks for the headsup, think I'll start describing myself that way more often, LOL.

The church left me, too. My dad told me the United Methodist church of his childhood (the 50s) was very active in social justice issues but when he saw that focus fade away, he did, too.

[DARE to HOPE]

66. I think it's because you're in the south...

United Methodist churches still are very socially active and anti-war, up here in the midwest anyway.

I was at Plymouth Rock once, in Plymouth MA, and right up the street from the Rock is the old Puritan church. Across the street from that is the split off church that became more "humanist" in the 19th c. (Unitarian, as opposed to Trinitarian.) Between them both is their shared 3-century cemetery.

[Eloriel]

69. So buy some CDs

I presume you're missing the Gregorian chants? I was raised Catholic (left in the 7th grade and never looked back), and still miss the Gregorian chants sometimes, so have a nice tho small collection of CDs. Fills the bill nicely. Unfortunately, what I'd really like is just the everyday, routine Mass we used to sing (I was in the choir), and to my knowledge, that's not available. And also the Dies Ire (sp?) from the Funeral Mass that I used to love. :shrug:

It was stupid of the Church to let go of the Gregorian chant IMO. Reason enough to leave, tho that wasn't MY reason. :D

[Lydia Leftcoast]

88. Even if you WERE Catholic, you wouldn't get Latin anymore

:-)

[Cha]

59. From what I know of UU..is

from the manager at the co-op where I work..the "church" is one building over from where we are located in a small upstate NY city.

I'm not a person who goes to any organized anything except yoga and political rallies(now). But if I did.. it would be there from what I've heard from her.

On Tuesday nights there is a meditation for whomever wants to come and participate. And the minister is in one of my yoga classes. And as you might have heard..organized religion frowns on "yoga" and "breathing" as being the devil's workshop.:evilfrown:

[Az]

60. There are so many out there that are UU and don't know it

It amazes me more Dems haven't dicovered this religion. I had the same sort of reaction when I discovered this Church years ago. Since then I (an atheist) have lead services, taught RE, and been an active member of a church. Its an amazing nest of freethinkers and liberals all located in one spot. Glad to hear you found it.

[Bouncy Ball]

61. I had to chuckle at the words "amazing nest:"

good description. VERY freethinking people. It felt so wonderful.

[Piperay]

62. I have a good friend whose

father is a Unitarian minister...it's all good. :thumbsup:

[FreedomFry]

63. For those who might be unsure if any religion works for them ...

www.beliefnet.com offers a quiz, "What's Your Spiritual Type?" that matches a religion to your own set of beliefs and values. It's an interesting exercise. When I took it, UU figured way at the top of my list.

As one who believes that atheists can be both moral and spiritual, the UU assessment worked for me, and if I ever attend church again, it will be UU. It is the only church I've ever known that values fellowship above religious power or financial wealth. One doesn't even have to believe in the popular concept of God to be a member.

[cynatnite]

67. Good link!

Some of the questions I had trouble with. If I'm asked if there's a hell, I answer with 'I don't know'. I don't know if there's a heaven. Some things when it comes to what I was taught as a child I either don't believe or just don't know.

I do like that this really gets a person to thinking more about how they believe. Some of the questions were tough.

Thanks!

[alphafemale]

65. It's Wonderful. Check out UU website if you haven't already.

uua.org

[mandyky]

68. Robert Fulghum (Sr) is a UU preacher

He wrote "All I Need to Know I learned in Kindergarten" and about 8 other anedoctal every day life books. UU churches frequently have gay potluck dinners, etc. I hearda few months ago the state of TX took away the UU churches there right to tax exemption.

UUs are a great bunch of folks, and welcome everyone.

[Bouncy Ball]

71. WHAT?

They better still have tax exemption if every other frigging church does!

That's ridiculous.

[hedgehog]

70. When I was in college, I had a UU member tell me that he could

get automatic CO status because the UU is a peace church like the Quakers. If that's stil true, some of you younger folks might want to look into it. My children are all Catholics and would claim CO status if push comes to shove, but they'll have a harder time of it.

[alphafemale]

85. It's not automatic, but many UU churches will help members get CO status

Some are already conducting classes to educate people about how to attain this status and prepare for the type of questions that will be asked.

[Pacifist Patriot]

150. In the 60s and early 70s, UU ministers were often used as CO

counselors so people sometimes make the assumption that there is a connection. But simply being a UU doesn't make the granting of the status automatic. Because of it's lack of stated doctrine on anything, UUism can't be classified as unilaterally CO. I do not quite a few UU ministers who are beginning counseling in this area again though.

[Tux]

164. Call me ignorant

But besides meaning central office or Colorada, what does CO mean?

[Az]

165. Conscientious Objector

Military term meaning their religious convictions do not allow them to kill or partake in killing other people.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

72. As someone who has become very

interested in Buddhism but may not feel quite comfortable at a Buddhist temple, I think UU might be a good choice for me.

[Bouncy Ball]

74. I've studied Buddhism for about seven years (informally)

and I told the lay minister that and he said he's studied it for about fifteen years, that he'd love to talk to me about it sometime and that about eight other members of the congretation study it, three of them formally.

Wow!

[jgardner]

149. UU Buddhists

My husband and I are UU Buddhists. When I moved to his hometown a couple years ago, he suggested that we join UU so that I could meet like-minded, intelligent people. I love it! Now I'm on the Board of Directors, and do the website (www.uufd.org).

[shance]

73. UU Churches are inclusive in they value all faiths and beliefs

I feel comfortable whenever I visit a UU church.

[Digit]

75. I used to attend a UU church...

I found UU after attending my last church where the minister berated the congregation (loudly, using a microphone no less) calling everyone sinners. He hammered and hammered the point to where you did not feel good at all. Then, they conveniently passed the collection plate. I left w/a very bad taste in my mouth.

I was delighted with UU and felt perfectly at home.
Now that I am living in a new state, I have not gone to a UU Church, but will have to check it out.

[Bouncy Ball]

80. I keep waiting for someone to say something bad about UU

and no one has yet. That's a good thing!

(I hated churches like that. Why do I need to go to church to feel bad about myself? Can't I just buy a popular magazine that tells me I don't look like a supermodel and I don't have tons of clothes and riches?)

[TheDonkey]

96. The one problem I have with UU churches

or at least in my area is sadly the lack of diversity (but not mental diversity!). I wish more racial minorities and younger people attended the UU church because it would really be something I think many would enjoy.

[Pacifist Patriot]

145. I'd like to see more diversity too.

[Comadreja]

76. Lots of seniors

Like the Democratic Party meetings here, the local UU is small and mostly seniors. Keeping the young interested and engaged is a tough go in UU. Apparently a lot of modern kids find it easier to relate to a more authoritarian religious system.

[Bouncy Ball]

81. At this one I was struck by how many young families there were.

To be honest, I expected a lot of older people. And there were some, but the young families outnumbered them.

I guess in those UU congregations with older populations, they just need an injection of some young blood! (Ick, that sounded bad, didn't it?)

[neverenoughtinfoil]

106. new here at DU-also to UUs

Went to a UU church in Virginia and it was like many others say-you are allowed to think for yourself and they espouse values with more decency in their pinkies than a lot of the fundies do in their entire bodies.

Comadreja, why do you think that is about the kids today? I think it might be the opposite, aren't kids more allowed to think for themselves than 50 years ago(with prominent exceptions)? could it perhaps be ebbing and flowing?

[amazona]

77. I went to a different, smaller New Age type church

There was some overlap with the UU membership in our area. The church was sadly broken up by various economic pressures in the Bush I S&L recession though. (On edit--our membership was mostly all pagans or people of pagan/Christian or pagan/agnostic belief.)


I know right after the election it was suggested we start going to fundie churches to try to understand them, get to know them, win them over, etc. But I've been to those churches. I know what they're about, they're no mystery to me. I would always end up feeling sickened when I would go--everything's about sin, sin, sin, sin, sin, power, power, power, power, power. It's ridiculous. It's like they love feeling bad about themselves and fearful about the world. And to be quite honest, it's cult-like. No thanks. I'd rather find a group of like-minded people. For once in my life. And I think I just did.

You know, I really question the sanity of people who think that giving time, energy, and membership to fundamentalist churches will achieve any positive purpose. I truly question the rationale or even the motive behind some of the folks proposing this.

Your observations are correct, and you made the wise decision. Church should be about worship of God and protection of God's peoples and creation, not about listening to some maniac spit as he screams at you. (This actually happened to us at a Baptist church, horrifying my poor parents! --And Baptists aren't even the worst with the hellfire and hate.)

Worship and church attendance should be about uplift or what's the point?

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[wildeyed]

82. My daughter attends preschool at the local UU church.

We all love it. The area I live in is conservative, at least relative to where I grew up. The UU's were like coming home. A whole group of moms from the pre-school helped with some of my political organizing last year. I started to refer to them as the Pre-school Political Posse. We would take turns watching the kids and making GOTV calls. Great group.

[Maat]

84. Everyone - we formed the DU Group for ....

Unitarian-Universalists (UUers), Religious Scientists, and other progressive faiths ... Seekers on Unique Paths (the SOUPs DU Group).

Please post there!

I attend both the UU church and the Church of Religious Science (a New Thought Progressive Faith).

The UU church is far away ... so, it is hard to go. But I love it when I do go!

Christopher Reeve was a UUer!

[Az]

98. A good friend of mine wrote a book called Who's Who of UU

Its actually quite amazing how many people were UUs. Here is a website detailing some of the famous UUs in history http://www.famousuus.com/

To wet your appetite:

Abigail Adams*
John Adams*
John Quincy Adams
Ethan Allen
Chester Bliss Bowles
Harold Hitz Burton
John C. Calhoun
Joseph S. Clark
William S. Cohen
Paul H. Douglas
Emily Taft Douglas
Thomas H. Eliot
Edward Everett
Millard Fillmore*
Benjamin Franklin*
Horace Greeley*
Hannibal Hamlin
Thomas Jefferson*
Edward S. Mason
Wade McCree
Maurine Neuberger
Lucius Paige (1802-1896)
Thomas Paine
William J. Perry
Paul Revere*
Josiah Quincy (1722-1864)
Elliot L. Richardson
Leverett Saltonstall
Francis George Shaw
Col. Robert Gould Shaw
Adlai Stevenson (1900-1965)*
William Howard Taft*
Daniel Webster*

[Maat]

99. Wow!

Thanks for the info, Az!

[kwassa]

142. I think these claims for famous UUs are somewhat dubious

Two reasons:

They might be defined as UUs after the fact, and both Unitarian and Universalism has changed quite a bit from any faith these people might recognize.

[bonito]

87. Yes I've been there

It was good, life to me is like a train ride, destination unknown, religion a hand rail to hold on to. me, I guess I just want to explore the train, but the UU handrail is a comfort in my journey to...

[Radio_Lady]

90. bonito, what a beautiful way to express it!

[Radio_Lady]

89. I've attended two congregations... both are very accepting of differences.

The First Parish Church in Sudbury, Massachusetts and the West Hills Unitarian Fellowship in Portland, Oregon.

We are a Jewish couple both raised in Judaism. We have five children from two former marriages, all raised within the Jewish faith. My daughter who lives here in Oregon practices Conservative Judaism and my son in Salt Lake City became a Mormon. My three stepkids married outside the Jewish faith completely; one grandson isn't even circumcised. Some of these grandchildren did go through the Bar/Bat Mitzvah services. Regrettably, we were not included due to existing family estrangements. That's another story altogether!

With all this diversity, I really had to accept the fact that we are all entitled to practice faith any way we define it for ourselves. Unitarianism lets you express your religion any way you wish. In my view, it works especially well for mixed religious marriages.

[gorbal]

93. I liked my grandmothers UU church

She used to play the organ. I tried to go to a UU congregation near where I live now, but it was just a bunch of middle aged women holding hands and singing songs in an unnervingly high pitch. I hear every congregation is different however, that is part of the beauty of UUism.

[TheDonkey]

94. I love my UU church, encouraged to think

is a great summation of what UU means. It's a beautiful place were discussion is accepted and disagreements are welcome.

[Coastie for Truth]

97. UU was everybody's "Second Choice" and "Common Ground"

when I was in college. Everybody (Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Eastern Catholic) attended the meetings -- a chance to be with some very bright people and have the kind of discussions that "college is all about."

They had a neat chaplain, who really related to the kids.

My roomie (Jewish) got married (his wife was Southern Baptist) - and they stayed UU. A couple of my cousins went the UU route.

The thing that impressed me - no dogma, no ritual -- you have to think for yourself.

Our Democratic Club (the real lefties) and the ACLU always seem to meet in UU buildings.

One of my very good friends (a secular Amish, conscientious objector engineer) has joined UU.

[superconnected]

100. I'm glad there are people here that get out and see other churches

often, I feel like people on DU live in a vacuum, when they talk about churches. There are many many churches that are not right wing fundie, and do encourage people to think for themselves.

In my area - seattle, I'm always amazed by the amount of liberal and new age churches. Sure there are fundie churches too but there are tons of very liberal churches out there with a large repartorie of different takes on the world, most of them healthy.

I personally like the new age ones that have meditation and chanting. I regularaly attend the UCC though, it's close to my house and still very liberal.

[Kimber Scott]

101. UUism is about living, whereas many other religions are about dying.

That's what I like about it. Welcome!

[barb162]

104. how nice...I hear the Bahai is like this too. Problem is not many of

them are around.

"Using your brain was encouraged"

Aint that different!!!!! and what a breath of fresh air, huh?

[rainbow4321]

107. TX State Treasure tried to revoke UU church's tax exempt status

Scary thing is, there has been talk about here running for TX gov....
she reversed her "not tax exempt" decision a few weeks after the initial ruling <media articles written, lawyers got involved>.


http://www.offthekuff.com/mt/archives/003503.html


Unitarian Universalists have for decades presided over births, marriages and memorials. The church operates in every state, with more than 5,000 members in Texas alone. But according to the office of Texas Comptroller Carole Keeton Strayhorn, a Denison Unitarian church isn't really a religious organization -- at least for tax purposes. Its reasoning: the organization "does not have one system of belief."

Never before -- not in this state or any other -- has a government agency denied Unitarians tax-exempt status because of the group's religious philosophy, church officials say. Strayhorn's ruling clearly infringes upon religious liberties, said Dan Althoff, board president for the Denison congregation that was rejected for tax exemption by the comptroller's office.


Questions about the issue were referred to Jesse Ancira, the comptroller's top lawyer, who said Strayhorn has applied a consistent standard -- and then stuck to it. For any organization to qualify as a religion, members must have "simply a belief in God, or gods, or a higher power," he said.

"We have got to apply a test, and use some objective standards," Ancira said. "We're not using the test to deny the exemptions for a particular group because we like them or don't like them." The courts have ruled against this "test", and I must say I'm a little disappointed with John Sharp for creating it. That was bad enough, but Strayhorn is vowing to keep fighting it, for reasons unclear to me. Doesn't she have better things to do, like throw rocks at Governor Perry?

[seventythree]

109. another UU, here, welcome

[DemBones DemBones]

110. You mentioned that everyone was saying good things about UU, so

I'll give a little balance. When I attended a UU church years ago, the sermon was about how special and how smart UUs were, how much better than everyone else they were not to believe in anything that others believed in! I was fairly agnostic at the time, just visiting with a friend, but the snobbish attitude --and the congregation was nodding and smiling in agreement throughout -- was more than enough to keep me from wanting to attend UU ever again. So that's the downside of UU. :7

[Bouncy Ball]

134. Hopefully I won't ever run into that here.

The people attending seemed very humble and open. If they do ever lose their mind and start talking like that, I'll set 'em straight, LOL!

[Virginian]

111. My spouse and I went today also.

I posted this in another string, I have never seen so many Kerry bumper stickers in one parking lot before.

We are out shopping for a religion. He has been a Unitarian before, I have been a member of other, more traditional denominations.

I was very impressed with the minister. A very smart man. Sermon was on comparative religions, we had a little Marti Gras flair with a brass band and singing "When the Saints Go Marching In." He said he highlights the holiday of any religion, not just Christian. He mentioned that Lent was the time of Christian sacrifice, Ramadan for Moslems, Roshashana/Yom Kippur for Jews. He mentioned Buddists and Wiccins and others too. Pardon my spelling.

After the service, we spoke with a member of the congregation. He pointed out that there was no religious symbol, like a cross in the building, but the windows looked out onto the beauty of nature. He was well read on the religion. He said his wife still goes to Mass, but also attends the UU church. I asked him if Catholicism was her religion and UU her philosophy. He seemed OK with that description.

I have also heard of it as the church of Bring-Your-Own-God or, Bring-a-God-to-Share.

I miss some of the ceremony of my old church, but we don't live in that town now.

[Dem2theMax]

113. Questions about UU, would appreciate answers.

I am Episcopalian by birth/parents dragging me to church as a child. I do believe in God/Jesus/some parts of the bible (the parts having to do with Jesus directly) and love singing, chanting, rituals of the church. BUT, I cannot stand the fact that we are not allowed to question the bible, we are supposed to accept what the church tells us is IN the bible, rather than use our own heads/hearts, and of course, the gay situation and lack of acceptance of gays/lesbians in the church. At least the one I've been going to. I stopped going there over a year ago. I do not feel at home and if there is any place you should be able to 'feel at home' it should be your church.

So, here I am, liberal, open-minded, single, no kids, late 40's, dying to have a place to go where I will feel at home and where I can learn and grow spiritually. I want to feed my faith in God while still learning about the beliefs of other people. I can learn as much from them about love and sharing and peace. Will I fit in at a UU 'church?' Like I said, I DO believe in God and want to build on that faith for myself. Will UU still work for me knowing that that is how I feel? I don't know how I feel about God being the 'only' way to Heaven. Are there other ways? Years ago I would have been shocked at myself for asking that question. Now, the older I get, the more I want to learn about other religions and what they believe and how they got to that point. I'm thinking UU would be a good fit for me, but I'd sure like some feedback from people who already attend UU.

And, if anyone lives in the North County area of San Diego and can recommend a good UU to attend, please, by all means, pass on a suggestion! :) And thanks ahead of time for any replies. I hope I get some. I REALLY want to find a 'church home.'

[Anarcho-Socialist]

115. I'm 100% convinced that exploring UU will work for you

as it would work for absolutely anyone who is open-minded. I hope you can find a good place to attend. :)

[deutsey]

119. Try the UU Christian Fellowship

http://www.uua.org/uucf/

In terms of joining an actual congregation, it really does depend on the congregation you find, because each one has its own personality. Most UU congregations are as open to Christians as they are to atheists.

I think fundamentalists or extremists of any stripe (political or religious) don't usually fit, because we all generally agree with the UU Principles:

We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote

The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:

Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html

[IrateCitizen]

122. Hey deutsey -- thanks for the link!

It's certainly very welcome to me. A lot of my difficulty within UU stems from the fact that I still consider myself a Protestant Christian while a member of a congregation that doesn't even broach the subject of Christianity or its belief system.

As Sister Joan Chittister said on "Now", I consider myself a Christian because the story of Christ is the one that speaks most to me.

[deutsey]

123. That's one of my big gripes about UUism in general

There can be an anti-Christian among members. I haven't experienced directly, but I know it's out there.

I hope this group helps give you the support you need. They did for me!

[Az]

124. The worst thing attending a UU church will do

is expand your thinking. You will find believers who reject the dogma and control of the orthodox churchs. You will find believers of entirely different ideas. You will find skeptics who welcome dialog with those that believe on matters of real concern such as how to live our lives here and now. You will find individuals that have discovered commonality in the teachings of Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tsu, and Confuscious.

If you think you can find anything of use from this unlikely gathering of people then give it a try. Unlike some groups we won't hound you should it not be your cup of tea. You won't be damned to hell for not finding our place to be your thing.

Life is a journey. UU Churchs are where some of us share our memoirs and photos of that journey.

[Bouncy Ball]

136. Based on what you said (all of which I can totally relate to)

you would LOVE a UU congregation. Those were exactly my problems, too.

Look at http://www.uua.org and click on Locate a Congregation or something like that. Then you can type in California and find the one nearest you.

I was very impressed and when it comes to "church" I am HARD to impress (very wary).

[Pacifist Patriot]

153. There are several UU congregations in your area.

http://www.firstuusandiego.org/

http://www.chaliceuu.org/

and another one that does not have an active website at the moment.

Summit UU Fellowship
Number of Members: 115
Mailing Address:
6062 Lake Murray Blvd. Ste. #110
La Mesa, CA 91942
Meeting Address:
East San Diego Masonic Temple
7849 Tommy Dr.
San Diego, CA 92119

My advice would be to attend several services at each of these locations to see if you feel at home.

You can look at more CA UU congregation here to see if there are others near you. I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with southern Californian geography outside of 15 miles of Coronado.

http://www.uua.org/CONG/results.php?s_method=state&state=CA&submit3=GO%21

[Anarcho-Socialist]

116. I enjoyed reading your account very much, I'm glad it's working for you

:hi: I am extremely happy with UU since I first visited a UU church back in 2003.

[IrateCitizen]

117. Another perspective from a disenchanted UU...

I'm glad you liked your first visit to a UU fellowship. Your experience sounds a lot like my initial impressions that led me to join my UU fellowship. However, I should also warn you, that it isn't all bread a roses as it may first appear.

I've been a Unitarian for about 2 years now. When my wife and I first started attending, our congregation was under and interim minister. Then, we found a permanent minister who was installed, and we signed up under her stay. We were actually married by our UU minister.

Now, however, we are again without a minister. Why? Because a significant portion of the congregation decided that she wasn't fulfilling their desire for intellectual stimulation enough, and therefore she was asked to leave.

Personally, I could really care less about the "intellectual" stimulation. I attend fellowship in order to be SPIRITUALLY stimulated. But in a congregation that may have more atheists/agnostics compared to those who still adhere to some sort of spiritual faith/search, intellectual stimulation and empiricism seems to rule.

In short, my advice to you is to check out all aspects of UU's. The freedom to conduct your own spiritual search can be a great thing, and is a big attraction. However, there is a serious lack of grounding in any sort of tradition within many UU's, and you may find yourself wanting if you come looking for spiritual fulfillment more than intellectual fulfillment.

[deutsey]

121. Yes, each congregation has its own unique strengths and weaknesses

I've been fortunate to join two fellowships that are supportive of a wide-range of viewpoints while finding enough commonground to hold ourselves together as a community.

That doesn't mean that tensions aren't there and that we haven't had difficult times and issues. Our fellowship recently went through a rough time, but we've come out of it even stronger than before. But I've heard stories about other congregations that weren't able to hold themselves together.

It's a human organization, with all its noble intentions and divisive tensions. To expect some kind of shangri-la is only setting yourself up for disillusionment.

The UUA does hold "healthy congregation" workshops that try to help congregations build strong foundations.

[Pacifist Patriot]

135. I agree. Expectations of a spiritual utopia are unrealistic.

I've been through congregational crises that resulted in a stronger community and a fractured community. The personalities involved make a big difference. I have found that the communities that fractured were composed of proportionately more people who were disillusioned by the strife. It's a lot harder to maintain a community when "my way or the highway" is not the modus operandi.

[IrateCitizen]

169. Where do you get the idea I'm looking for spiritual utopia???

I'm not. I'm simply looking to having my spiritual needs spoken to. I just happen to be a member of a congregation that appears to want to avoid "God talk" like the plague and instead turn in the direction of secular humanism. While that is good for the secular humanists in my midst, it does nothing for me, personally.

So, the next question is, why would I remain a member of a congregation that has goals that are very different from mine? I'm not after utopia, I'm simply seeking a good balance of free thought and spiritual fulfillment. I would think that would not be too much to ask.... :shrug:

[deutsey]

170. I was speaking in general and also had the original post in mind

He or she was very enthusiastic (a good thing) about their UU experience. I was using your post to warn that poster and others that there are a variety of fellowships out there, some more conducive to what they're looking for than others. And there is always the point when the honeymoon is over and you start to see some of the blemishes.

Sorry if you took it personally. It sounds like you might want to begin a UU Christian group (if you thought it was worth it) or attend a liberal Christian congregation. The UCC always seemed like a place I'd want to go if I were still a Christian.

Although I'm not a Christian any more, I do still find a lot of meaning in Christ's life and teachings and in how he died. I do believe in what we usually call God, but my belief is probably closer to the Hindu notion of Brahman than anything else (you can imagine this only touches on my belief system...the point of this post isn't to explain my personal theology, so I'll just make this broad, sweeping statement and hope you'll understand what I mean).

Regardless, I also get put off by atheists and former Christians among the UUs who have an ax to grind against Christianity. But I also try to enter into dialogue with them when this happens, which they usually seem willing to do. I personally think we both come away with a larger understanding of each other's views than we had before when we do this, and we even, as Plato said, get a larger sense of the truth and, consequently, the divine.

[Pacifist Patriot]

131. That is definitely an important tension in the UU community.

I'm fortunate in that my area has three UU churches. One is very spiritual, one very intellectual and the other a mix of both. Not everyone has the luxury to pick and choose like that. I've been through a ministerial crisis and it's definitely not fun. All in all though, I'd prefer that to being expected to swallow an ancient mythology as the literal truth.

[kwassa]

143. MInisterial crises happen in many denominations and

some of them wreck churches. We've left a church where we weren't happy with the management's inability to manage, for instance.

[Pacifist Patriot]

152. I'd say they probably happen in all denominations.

The dynamics are different depending on hierarchical or congregational political structure though.

[Bouncy Ball]

138. There are so many UU congregations near me

that if I feel unhappy with one, I can always check another one out.

To me, the intellectual stimulation feeds the spiritual stimulation and vice versa. When I get one, I get the other. So to me, it doesn't matter "which end" it is coming in on much.

[deutsey]

120. For those of you who can't or don't want to attend a UU congregation

Try the UU Church of the Larger Fellowship:

CLF's mission is to provide a ministry to isolated religious liberals, and to offer a spiritual home within the Unitarian Universalist movement.

The Church of the Larger Fellowship promotes the understanding and growth of Unitarian Universalism and institutes programs to that end.

CLF Members
The Church of the Larger Fellowship is the largest congregation in the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations. Our members live all over the world, and interact with our Boston-based church staff by mail, phone, and e-mail.

MORE: http://www.uua.org/clf/newcomers.html

[kwassa]

125. My critique of the UU church, which I grew up in

On paper, the Unitarians principles are things that I mostly believe in.

In practice, however, despite those principles, I have no recollection of hearing any spiritual discussion in any Unitarian church that I attended in my childhood or young adulthood. While all paths are supposedly welcome, none are pursued. The word "God" is rarely, if ever mentioned, something rather basic to the concept of a church. Most churches I have attended had a pro agnostic/aetheistic bent to them. I've never met the mythical Christian Unitarian church. And what I can't understand is why the Unitarian church follows the form of the Protestent church service while having none of the content.

Every few years I stick my nose in another Unitarian church to see if things have changed, but I have yet to see those changes.

To me, it is an ethical society, or perhaps a secular humanist society, but not a church, because is not there for the essential purpose of a church.

It is also a reactive faith. Most come to UU from other churches, in reaction to wwhat they percieve as dogma, but because there is no raison d'etre held in common, UU churches often don't hold on to the children of members in the next generation.

And it is not diverse, really.

[Pacifist Patriot]

128. It depends on the congregation and many times on the

minister. I've been a UU for ten years. The first minister was very spiritual and thought-provoking as far as exploring your unique spiritual path. Sadly he passed away two years after I started attending the church. The second minister was an atheist and left me flat out cold. He was a disaster. The third minister was beyond fabulous and is still preaching in Paramus, NJ. The fourth minister is very very religious but extremely respectful of alternate paths. He's my current minister.

I've been a guest in at least seven other churches. Some services were unenlightening, some borrowing, but some were incredibly inspirational and exciting.

The stats on children UUs making it to the next generation are definitely changing. Thanks in large part to major improvements in the RE curricula available today and the dedication of youth group leaders.

You are right though. Because of the lack of doctrine and dogma you never do know what you are going to get. That uncertainty can make some people uncomfortable and unfulfilled.

[Bouncy Ball]

140. The congregation I attended was the most diverse I had ever seen

in any church.

There actually is a UU church that is FAR more Christian in "flavor" than the regular UU churches. There is a huge one in Dallas called Unity Church.

[kwassa]

141. Unity is a separate denomination unrelated to UU

Most UU churches are white, white, and more white. There are some like All Souls in D.C. that are more mixed, but as a denomination it is not all that diverse.

This is not unusual as most church denominations are not diverse and many break along racial lines.

Unity is a denomination that is derived from the New Thought movement, and there are Unity churches all over the country.

[Pacifist Patriot]

144. I'm hoping having an African American UUA President

will gain us more attention among minority groups. I agree the membership is overwhelmingly caucasian. I'd like to see more diversity.

[Az]

146. That is an interesting aspect of UUism

I have seen a lot of congregations sitting around wondering why they are not more African American's present in their congregation.

I attend the First UU Of Detroit Congregation and .... well we don't have that problem. I suspect the primary reason for it is that UU congregations tend to be made up of more afluent populations. You will find the distribution tends to match the distribution of minorities.

I am reminded of a statement I once heard. A civil rights activist (Colonel West IIRC) who was active on the 60s was reflecting on what he knew of Unitarian Universalists (he wasn't one himself). He said "Oh yeah, they were those crazy white people in the back of the bus with us."

[Pacifist Patriot]

148. LOL! We have a 90 year old African American member who

said the same thing. He first learned of UUism because of "those crazy white people in the back of the bus with me."

I also agree with you. The demographics do tend toward more financially comfortable and/or more educated.

[kwassa]

156. I think your thesis is incorrect

Az:
"I attend the First UU Of Detroit Congregation and .... well we don't have that problem. I suspect the primary reason for it is that UU congregations tend to be made up of more afluent populations. You will find the distribution tends to match the distribution of minorities."

Nonsense. You Unitarians are parochial, among other things. Many affluent blacks are Baptist, United Methodist, First A.M.E., and other denominations that were either created by blacks or welcomed blacks early on.

I'm speaking as someone that grew up in the Birmingham UU church just up Woodward a few miles. There were no black people when I was there.

Detroit was a very, very segregated city. There were no black people north of Eight Mile. There were not only no blacks, but no Jews up there. The Jews lived in Southfield.

I am in an Episcopal church now that has members from all over the world. The reason? The Anglican church set up shop in the English colonies. Immigrants from those former colonies in Africa and the Caribbean and India that worshipped as Anglicans in their native countries now worship as Episcopalians in the US, and the DC area is full of immigrants from those areas. Hence, diversity. Similarly, the Catholic churches now have many Hispanic members.

[Az]

158. The reasons are a bit more complicated than that

I merely provided a very broad explanation for UU congregation tendencies. Statistics show that UUs tend to draw from the higher educational and economic brackets. Tend to. Thus they tend to form congregations in higher economic bracketed communities. Thus the demographics of a particular UU church will reflect the surrounding community.

I have attended Birmingham UU as well. And since your time there I can atest to a number of African Americans joining the congregation (I even met my fiance through one of them). The mix of UU congregations is an interesting study. I would not be comfortable placing any simple explanation on how or why they are the way they are.

Suffice to say that there are differences between how UUs and other denominations aquire members. UUs do not actively evangelize (this thread is about as strong as it gets). UUs do not condemn. If you don't come to services its your loss. There is no penalty threatened to keep bodies in the pews. These two factors make for a draw based on the community rather than the dogma or doctrine.

[kwassa]

160. Many denominations don't evangelize

Az:
"Statistics show that UUs tend to draw from the higher educational and economic brackets. Tend to. Thus they tend to form congregations in higher economic bracketed communities."

The implication that I get when I read this, and why I see it as parochial, is that only UUs draw from higher educational and economic brackets. This is the way you state it. The other implication is that if black people were better educated and had more money, they would become Unitarians. I don't know if this was your intent, but if so, it is nonsense.

It would be very interesting to see a comparison of the median income level of the Birmingham UU and say, Kirk In The Hills.

The UUs are also parochial in that they see themselves as much different from mainline Protestent denominations, when they really aren't. Politically, they are identical.

edit:
To sum it up, Unitarians tend to think of themselves as more unique than anyone else would. I think they need to get out more.

[Az]

161. That is not my intent

As I said it is nowhere near a simple matter. It is only a factor. One of many.

[IrateCitizen]

168. Unitarians also think of themselves as more liberal than anyone else too.

Many of the members of my UU fellowship probably think of themselves as wild-eyed liberals in a lot of ways. Frankly, I think this is pretty typical in UU congregations. However, I would say that my fellowship is much more mainstream than most of them would like to admit.

Case in point: Last year, the UUA put several topics up for discussion among the congregations. One was support of same-sex marriage. I believe the second was support of women's rights. The third was global climate change.

I sat in several discussion groups dedicated to deciding which topic to adopt. Overwhelmingly, people chose the first two issues, while avoiding the third like the plague. I think I was the ONLY member of our congregation who chose #3. And I publicly stated the reason why I thought everyone else stayed away from it.

It was because people could support the other two issues without really having to do anything, to look inside themselves, or to think about seriously changing their lives. The third topic, OTOH, was one that really compelled people to look inside themselves and reconsider the way they live their lives in relation to the planet and the future.

As I recall, nobody disagreed with me, but they also pretty much avoided saying ANYTHING after I said that. I knew I had struck a nerve. Fortunately, one of the positive aspects of our losing a minister is that we are doing lay-led services. So, you can guess what I'm doing a sermon on next month -- GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE. And my goal is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Considering the median income of my congregation is in the 6-figure range, it will be more about afflicting the comfortable....

[kwassa]

172. Unitarians range from liberal to radical, usually.

I briefly attended one small church in Los Angeles that was basically a Communist cell. I am not joking. Many, many years ago. Another would have part of the service in Spanish and part in Korean to reflect the surrounding neighborhood. I don't know if these local immigrant groups cared.

Other churches are very suburban-liberal, fairly status quo types. You know, cheese-eating Volvo drivers. %^)

[Maat]

147. Unity is not Unitarian-Universalist.

It is a new-thought church that is in the same family as mine, the Church of Religious Science. New thought churches focus on using the power of the mind, that spiritual force ("God") that is within us. "Our thoughts are prayers, and we are always praying ... take charge of what you're saying." Unity and CRS differ in that Unity views itself as sort of a mystical Christian New Thought Church; CRS celebrates all paths to God, and does not require that one is Christian.

I'm a Religious Scientist (and we do refer to God, or Spirit, as I call it). I'm with the Unitarian-Universalists many, many times philosophically. I'm reading about both - and the only differences so far that I have noted is that (1) Religious Science churches virtually always conduct a service that refers to 'God' or 'Spirit,' viewed as an energy that one can avail oneself of from within, and (2) we believe in continuation of one's unique energy after death.

This is one of my favorite subjects.

[kwassa]

155. Actually, Maat, I see little similarity between the two ...

but I won't get into it here.

They are extremely different churches.

[Maat]

157. Agreed! They are very similar! They are very similar!

I was just making a technical point. Sorry.

You betcha they're all similar!

There really isn't a big difference between my Church of Religious Science and UU (I've attended both), and I'm in a quandary. And, everything is church specific.

My difficulty is that the UU church is 45 minutes to an hour away.

I tend away from Unity because of its Christian emphasis. For example, we have this ceremony in CRS (Church of Religious Science) during which the pastor/participants light seven candles for the attributes of God/Spirit (light, love, peace, joy, Spirit, etc.). Anyway, in Unity, each candle represents an attribute AND one of the apostles. I tend to like it with just the qualities - no mention of Christian figures.

I picked CRS, versus UU, because, in addition to the drive, I like the affirmative prayer (creative-visualization-meditation) and the uplifting music that goes on in CRS. But again, everything is church-specific, as you DUers have taught me. Just liked the customs/traditions in CRS, I guess.

However, philosophically, I tested out at 100% in agreement with UU. I believe that one's unique energy continues on after 'death,' however, for whatever that means.

Ideally, if a UU churh establishes nearby, I'm going to alternate, because I like the social activism in the congregants at the UU church I've visited, in addition to those lessons on different religions.

And, when we throw in the rather liberal UCC (United Church of Christ) congregations around here, who accept congregants believing Christ is a consciousness, we really get similar.

So, in the end, I give my friends a list with them all on it - and I say: "These are the progressive churches. Try one. And don't give either emotional or financial support to one that is anti-gay or anti-equal-opportunity." (including Metro. Community Churches, UCC, Unity, CRS, UU).

Thoughts?

[kwassa]

159. Many denominations are conservative and liberal within themselves

There are different wings of these churches that may hold almost opposing views.

My Episcopal diocese is wildly liberal. The seminarians at my church were either gay or female or both. We gave a recent seminarian, a white heterosexual male, a very hard time for being different. At the same time, the ordination of a gay bishop, Eugene Robinson, has almost split the denomination in the US, and has caused us to recieve extreme criticism from the larger worldwide Anglican communion. There are very conservative American churches that have chosen to align themselves with African bishops, who are much more conservative. The irony is that most of these conservatives probably have no other contact with black people.

The Catholic Church, which I certainly don't regard as liberal, does more good charitable work than any other denomination in the world, through Catholic Charities. Likewise, the Lutherans do a great deal. Judging a denomination by the outside perception of it's politics can be pretty dangerous.

[Maat]

167. I love discussing the different religions, denominations, etc.

Thanks for the post.

Which ones? Unity? I have a friend who liked one, but didn't like another.

As to Church of Religious Science, my congregation is a bit on the conservative side. My pastor is a wonderful flower child/woman from the 60's - VERY progressive. But she keeps things quite middle of the road. For example, we are not social activists like many other CRS congregations. We're just little ol' positive-thinkers.

I had one congregant complain about the CRS church in San Juan Capistrano, as being 'too progressive.' Oh, well. I'm having a lot of fun where I am, but would probably enjoy visiting that one.

We have a really fun church bookstore. We have books from a variety of religions ... and really fun statues of the various 'Gods' and 'Goddesses' from the different faiths, just to represent ideas.

I bought the half-man/half-elephant Hindu god statute, because I was drawn to it. Found out the story has it that he was a bad youngster, so his mother turned him into the elephant deity, and then he used his trunk to move obstacles. I liked that idea, because I'm a retired social worker who went back to law school, and I'm finished with that, and I'm going to take the California Bar Test in a week. So, he can move obstacles out of the way for me (LOL!).

I've been watching your siutation (the Espiscopal). It makes me feel sad. I say a prayer that Gene Robinson and those who are progressive will stay strong within your church, and not back down, even after the threats I read about on the rightwing religious websites (e.g. agapepress.org). For example, they are trying to withdraw (individual congregations) and keep the church property, which is unfair, I believe. Good luck with it! Stay strong.

[kwassa]

171. one saving grace

maat:
"For example, they are trying to withdraw (individual congregations) and keep the church property, which is unfair, I believe."

It is not only unfair, it is illegal. The church properties belong to the Episcopal church, and the buildings can't be withdrawn. The local bishop also has the power to approve rectors, as well. Those congregations that have left have to leave the buildings. They lose in the court system.

[Maat]

173. That is good news!

n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

126. Ha! You know how I feel about it.

WHOOHOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bouncy Ball]

139. ...

:bounce:

:-)

[Tux]

166. I, too, went to a UU church for the first time yesterday

With my gf and it was great. I went for the Zen Buddhist group and she went for the activism, community, and their support of pagans (we can't find a pagan group here that isn't snobby; all one of them). The sermon was Protosent in nature but I liked the music, moments of silence (I meditated), and the openess of the people there. We were invited to a movie night and to a tai chi class. I'm more cautious about things but I have a feeling it'd work out. Has to be better than the church that blamed me for my mom's Parkinson's disease.