Big Red is still the greatest

[Kingofalldems]

As good as Afleet Alex ran yesterday, he would have lost to Secretariat by about 22 lengths. He covered the mile and a half in 2:24 while being hand ridden, while the jockey on Afleet Alex had to hit him a couple times in the stretch. Big Red was in a class all by himself.

[Awsi Dooger]

1. Not 22 lengths when you consider track variant

Secretariat's track in the Belmont was like I-95 at 4 AM, or an Indy straightaway. Scraped beyond belief. Not to detract from Secretariat, who ran incredible races in all three Triple Crown events, but that 2:24 time is somewhat phony. A mediocre horse broke the track record at a premier distance, either 1 mile or 1 1/8 miles, in the race immediately preceeding Secretariat's Belmont. In fact, 7 of Belmont Park's 11 main track records were broken within one week either way of Secretariat's Belmont, completely unprecedented. Many of them lasted for years.

The track was also exceptionally fast in the Derby. Remember, Sham finished just a couple of lengths behind and therefore also broke 2 minutes. A horse named Our Native ran 2:01, a time which would have won almost every Derby before or since. You can argue Secretariat was defeating exceptional horses who would have won big in other years, or that the track conditions were abnormally fast. Evaluating other races run by Sham and Our Native, including running times, the latter conclusion jumps out at me.

[Awsi Dooger]

2. To be fair I should mention the '73 Preakness

Secretariat was unfairly timed at 1:55 due to an obviously malfunctioning track timer. I think they adjusted it down to 1:54 2/5 via a hand timing from someone who worked for Pimlico, but I distinctly remember a side-by-side TV replay of the '73 and '71 (Canonero II) Preakness runnings in which it was clear Secretariat had beaten Canonero's time. The adjusted time should have been closer to 1:53 2/5 or 1:53 3/5, the numbers Daily Racing Form clockers came up with.

[Kingofalldems]

4. I remember that

Racing writer Andy Beyer was outraged by the poor job done by the timer. Also the fact Secretariat was hand ridden to destroy a crop of good horses, especially Sham, puts him at the very top in my book.

[Justpat]

3. In Slew's year

the track was drying out mud which is heavy and deep. The track
that day was a mess. Slew was always knocked for the time, but as
you pointed out, they were two different race tracks.

For Secretariat's year it was like a paved road. For Slew it was
a bog.

[Kingofalldems]

5. Slew was one hell of a horse

and an awesome sire. Is he still living?

[Justpat]

6. He died two years ago.

He was twenty eight when he died and he died twenty five years to
the day of his Derby win.

[Awsi Dooger]

15. Billy Turner wanted to "send" Slew if the track had been fast

I remember his quote, "It would have been awesome." Instead, since the track was so lousy he merely had Cruguet jog the horse around the track. As you imply, Old Broad, that race and time were hardly indicative of Slew's true ability.

Seattle Slew was an absolute freak. He is pathetically underrated by fans who don't know racing well. Slew won the Champagne Stakes as a 2-year-old in 1:34 flat, defeating For The Moment by 10 widening lengths. One prominent racing writer said it was like Man O'War and Citation rolled into one.

But Billy Turner was a very conservative trainer. I was at Hialeah in early '77 when Slew broke the track record at 7 furlongs in his 3 year old debut. After the race Turner was quoted as saying Slew had filled out and improved significantly after turning 3. He realized what he had and didn't want to push the horse unnecessarily by having Cruguet shoot for margins or track records. The owners were young and new to racing and wanted Slew to race beyond his 3 year old campaign. After that Hialeah race Slew coasted to the wire through the Triple Crown except for the Preakness, when he was pushed early by a speedball named Cormorant then had to withstand a late charge. Turner admitted he probably sent out a short horse fror the Derby.

Also, remember that Secretariat was syndicated and insured for $6.08 million before his 3 year old campaign began, since the owner and stable were in financial straits. Therefore, Secretariat could not alter his value regardless of his performances as a 3 year old. Hence they could take chances with him. He probably was sick when he ran in the Wood, finishing a dull third to Angle Light in the race before the Derby.

[ProfessorGAC]

13. Weren't The Other Horses Running On That Same Track

They weren't exceptionally fast like he was, were they? Answer: Nope.

If they were, he wouldn't have won by the margin he did.

Same in the Derby. Dominance is dominance and track conditions can't affect just one horse.
The Professor

[Awsi Dooger]

16. I don't understand your points at all

There were only 6 horses in the Belmont. Sham broke down, never to race again, in the middle of the race. The great Forego, who was mediocre before gelded but became a star handicap horse, finished 4th in the Derby and was gelded following that race. Obviously he did not run in the Belmont. Besides Sham the rest of the field was garbage. Therefore, given Secretariat's 31 length margin, no other horse finished in less than 2:30 on a track that was like a paved road, as Old Broad correctly put it.

Secretariat's Belmont performance was undeniably awesome. But both the time and the margin are misleading. Anyone who follows horse racing closely understands that. On a normal track he never runs a 2:24 or anything close. With a decent field, or if Sham doesn't break down, another horse might have finished in 2:27, or thereabouts, on a track that quick, slicing Secretariat's margin in half.

I don't think you understood the difference in the Derby at all. Secretariat was not dominant in the Derby in terms of margin. He won by 2 lengths over Sham. The Preakness was a near identical margin over Sham. I completely agree track condtions don't affect just one horse. In fact, that was precisely my point and you whiffed it completely.

Since Sham, who was good but not great based on pre-Derby results and times, came within two lengths of Secretariat in both the Derby and Preakness while running exceptional times, that means the track conditions were incredibly fast and pushed Sham beyond his typical capabilities. Sorry, but the same applies to Secretariat in the identical races. He was a superhorse who benefited from abnormally fast tracks in all 3 Triple Crown events.

[ProfessorGAC]

18. I Understood All Of That

What made you think i didn't understand it? You never answered the question. The other horses were on the same track. They did not turn in exceptional performances. Sham may have run fast, but i would suggest it's only your opinion that that horse ran above it's capabilities.

Sham was a highly rated horse at the time and would have been much more highly regarded except for running into a buzz saw called Secretariat. I was at that Derby! Everyone knew Secretariat would win! The odds were dreadful, since so much cash flowed to him on the Win tickets. Sham was a wonderful horse that just wasn't good enough to beat an even better one.

The rest of the field did not turn in superb times in any of the three races. One horse did in all three.

I think you have made up your mind that his superb performance that year was based upon fast tracks and will bend the logic whichever you have to in order to prove that point.

And you say i whiffed? Curious.
The Professor

[aaronbees]

7. Secretariat's Belmont will never be repeated...

Say what you will about times and margins, but Alex's Belmont was nonetheless impressive. He put away that field in about four or five strides, practically galloping past them. He swallowed them whole and spit them out.

Was just looking at photos of Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and the Bid last night; even in retirement, those fellas looked like the kings they were. What a decade of great runners the '70s was.

[Justpat]

8. I agree that Alex's Belmont was impressive.

When he went by the rest of them right before the quarter pole
he made the rest of them look like they were in a jog.

[two gun sid]

9. aaronbees, I also believe Secretariat's Belmont will never....

be repeated. At least in my life time.

I still think AA's Belmont was impressive. He has a devasting turn of foot. It has been a long time since I've seen a horse that can explode the way Afleet Alex did. It put me in mind of Secretariat's move around the first turn at Pimlico in the '73 Preakness. Or John Henry's move in the Ballantine Classic at the Meadowlands in his final race. Only freaks can do things like that.

I've been thinking about the '70's and present day horse racing. I think we are entering another golden age of racing. We have been seeing some damn fine horses the last few years.

I wish Afleet Alex and all his connections all the best luck in the world.

[aaronbees]

12. I sure hope, so...

on the resurgence of a golden age. We've had some real greats or near greats lately; just hope these horses don't keep getting whisked away to the breeding shed before they show all they can.

Alex's move is just amazing and rare. When she wins, Megahertz seems to have some of that same kind of kick, though she waits a little longer to use it.

[two gun sid]

10. Spectacular Bid....

was the greatest horse that ever looked through a bridle! Secretariat was a very, very close second. I'll go to my grave believing that.

[aaronbees]

11. The more I read about him...

the more I agree on that assessment of the Bid. Wouldn't it be something if Alex came back and even showed a fraction of that brilliance at 4?

[two gun sid]

14. I'd just like to see a really good 3 YO...

keep racing into his/her 4 YO year. The breeders call the tune these days. You can't blame owners for syndicating good 3 YO's for the breeding business when you consider the costs and uncertainty of racing. Look what happened to Toccet. I bet Borislow wished he had of sent him to the breeding shed after his 2 YO season.

Hopefully, AA is the iron horse he appears to be and continues his winning ways.

[Awsi Dooger]

17. I tend to believe the safety pin story

Bid's Belmont is inexplicable minus some weird influence like that. Coastal was a very good horse and ran great in the Peter Pan. A classic lurker and many wise guys liked his chances. But when Bid fell apart and allowed Golden Act to pass him for 2nd I was convinced something was wrong and not just the quick pace that Ronnie Franklin foolishly chased.

Still, it is true Bid was defeated by Affirmed later in the year, also at 1 1/2 miles, so maybe it just wasn't his best distance. Granted, there was the 3 year old/4 year old difference, but Slew toyed with Affirmed twice after nearly dieing due to virus plus almost a year's inactivity. I always thought Affirmed and Alydar were somewhat overstated, their equality and rivalry enhancing their reputations slightly beyond their ability. Since Slew defeated Afffirmed handily I expected similar from Spectacular Bid and I downgraded him when Affirmed won.

[two gun sid]

19. Good points...

I too believe the safety pin story. Ronnie also helped blow The Bid's Belmont by going after that long shot and leaving nothing for the end.

Bid's loss in the Gold Cup to Affirmed is one I forgive him for. After the safety pin incident The Bid developed an infection and nearly died. Delp had part of the frog cut away and layed Bid up for awhile. He went back into training later in his 3 YO year. Bid lost that Gold Cup race by 3/4 of a length. They went the final 1/4 in :25. Maybe 1 1/2 miles wasn't Bid's best distance but, in a best 2 out of 3, I'd take Bid against all comers.

I guess it all comes down to which horse touched you most. That's the great part of the sport. We can all advance our arguments for which one was the greatest but really it's just our perceptions. The actual differences of ability between Slew, Affirmed, Secretariat, and The Bid are probably miniscule.

As long as people race horses those four names will live on. They are immortals.

(after reading your earlier post about Slew and people not giving him credit, well, let me just say: "The Slew Flew.")