And Joe Torre knocks the Yankees out of first place

[DaveinMD]

Brings Wayne Franklin into a 1-0 game in the 8th and of course he blows it. The Yanks have been carrying this moron for years. He's a horrendous manager. Last night they bailed him out. So he decided to try to lose the game again and he did.

[StevieM]

1. Buck Showalter was and is a much better manager IMO (eom)

x

[DaveinMD]

2. no doubt

he built the title teams. Torre is an idiot.

[rinsd]

26. Really...

...I think Buck is a great team builder but that fact is he did not win while his sucessors did.

[DaveinMD]

49. he didn't have Jeter

or vintage Mariano. Mariano was just a rookie that year. He also didn't have Tino Martinez or Jeff Nelson in the pen. Didn't have Stanton either.

[enigami]

3. Well

it couldn't last forever. ha

[DaveinMD]

4. Torre

is the worst manager in baseball with a great team. They can't bail him out every night.

[enigami]

5. 24 hours on top n/i

[DaveinMD]

6. they'll be back

at some point. But Torre makes it too hard on them. He's just exasperating.

[erpowers]

25. Are You Sure

What about Bobby Cox? He had one of the best teams in baseball for a good number of years and he was only able to win one championship. It is possible that the Braves would have or could have won the championship in 94' when the players went on strike; however, he still only has one championship. For years now the Braves have been able to win their division, but they have only won one championship. So are you sure that Torre is the worst manager with a great team?

[DaveinMD]

33. Cox

hasn't had near the talent that Torre had. He's won with some bad teams. He's a good manager in my book. And he's got a great pitching coach in Mazzone.

[JohnKleeb]

7. You guys are at least still in second

BJ Ryan couldnt throw strikes for shit tonight, makes me so angry I feel like getting my glove and going for a tryout, I believe he threw 75% balls. Agh I do believe they are still a half game out of first but they should have won that game.

[DaveinMD]

10. Ryan is good

those games happen. At least your manager didn't give a game away.

[JohnKleeb]

11. Yeah hes good, I am just frustrated with him, thats like two BSs in a row

Actually Maz called it pretty good, having Bigbie bunt thus advancing Matos, then having Roberts hit in the air helped but then Ryan aghed us.

[evlbstrd]

8. You guys are so used to buying championships.

You have to find a scapegoat. When Torre was winning pennants, where were the whines? Torre doesn't pitch, hit or field. The "team" does those things. Managers get more credit and blame than they deserve.

[DaveinMD]

9. load of crap

I've been complaining about Torre for years. He won because we had great teams. Take your sour grapes buying pennants crap somewhere else.

[evlbstrd]

14. Who put those teams together? Who managed them?

Now he sucks? Sounds like fair weather to me. My team has sucked for years, and I know it. Your team falls to SECOND PLACE and you scream for the manager's head. Jeez.

[DaveinMD]

16. Gene Michael

and Buck Showalter put those title teams together. They had the best team in the AL in 94 when the strike occurred. They made the playoffs the following year and added Jeter. Anyone would have won with those teams. Torre is a horrendous manager. If you watched Yankees games you would know this. He pitches a journeyman lefty in a 1-0 game. He does crap like this all the time.

[evlbstrd]

17. You know, I don't know why I even replied to this thread.

Call me an idiot.
I see Yankees fans as spoiled fans. And I see so many of them in the midwest, it makes me sick.
It's not limited to baseball, either. Frontrunners are everywhere.
And money is the bane of baseball. The system is unbalanced and unfair.

[DaveinMD]

18. don't call me a front runner

I've been a Yankee fan since I was 7 years old. I lived at the stadium when they were a last place team. I pay a lot of money so I can watch every game possible. And I've been criticizing Torre for years.

Tonight is not the night for me to get into an argument about competitive balance. And by the way, there is a ton of balance in baseball. It sucks that your team is mismanaged whoever they may be. That's not the Yankees fault. That's their fault.

[evlbstrd]

19. I applaud your loyalty.

And I did not accuse you, in particular, of being a frontrunner. I mentioned people in the midwest. But baseball is badly balanced. There is no parity, ala NFL. Deny it if you like, it's still true.

[DaveinMD]

21. Look at the standings

Almost every team is in contention for a playoff spot. There are less playoffs spots than the nfl. Teams with high payrolls. Teams with low payrolls. There has never been more parity.

[Telly Savalas]

12. Torre's decision to bring in Franklin was a clear attempt to distract..

us from the Karl Rove leak scandal.

[DaveinMD]

13. funny

very funny. He is a Republican. Bastard.

[JohnKleeb]

15. sports and politics combined

:popcorn: nothing better, anyhow speaking of a combination of sports and politics, can someone please tell me why Jim Bunning is in the hall of fame, he was a good, ok above average pitcher but he won 231 games, thats very few for a pitcher in the modern era. Now I know he did have two perfect games but still.

[DaveinMD]

23. before my time

I'd have to look at his other numbers to answer the question. Be very leery of looking at wins when analyzing pitchers.

[DaveinMD]

24. ok

He had very good numbers. 3.27 career ERA. That is outstanding.

Here are his numbers.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bunniji01.shtml

[JohnKleeb]

28. I didnt deny hes good but I dont think hes a hall of famer

Hes a psycho in the senate but damn I believe hes the only pitcher to get perfect games in both leagues, I cant imagine pitching a no hitter but two perfect games is incredible. Then again Koufax has less than 200 wins and is in. I just dont understand seeing how strict the hall seems to be about people, that hes in. Hmm I wonder who will be in the class of 2006, I know who will be in 2007, Ripken and Gwynn both who are no doubt first ballotters.

[DaveinMD]

29. Koufax

is one of the best pitchers of all time. He was so dominant it was scary. He retired early.

I think Gwynn is overrated. He only hit singles and his obp wasn't much higher than his average. But he'll be first ballot.

The people who say Palmiero isn't a hall of famer are idiots.

[Ekirh]

30. Stupid Question

But why did Koufax retire early.. some sort of injury wasn't it? Damn shame he had to.

Yes Koufax has less than 200 wins but damn just look at his stats over the years... not to mention four no hitters (One being a perfect game if I remember correctly) which would be the record until Ryan would end up getting seven no hitters. . .

I would safely bet that if Koufax didn't have to bow out earlier his career stats might of been even scarier. "shudders at the thought".

I know that's not a lot of follow up information.. just got out of a Statistic's exam today so just doing everything on the fly and half brain dead.

[DaveinMD]

31. he had a bad elbow

and he didn't want to risk further injuries for his life after baseball. He was amazingly dominant.

[Ekirh]

32. I can imagine

I was definitely not alived when he played but my Grandpa was and he always marveled at how dominant the man was during his short stay in the sport. Truly one of the greatest pitchers.

[JohnKleeb]

36. Yeah he retired after the 66 world series

he was only 30 too, so he would have made 300 I guess for sure. Shame that he retired, he was amazing in his prime.

[JohnKleeb]

35. Koufax was amazing I think

Yeah I think honestly in our times Palmeiro is one of the most underrated, hes never gotten too much glamor but hes got one thing going for him, thats consistency, he in his best days hit 290 with around 40 home runs and 120 RBIs. Plays a good first base too. I wonder whose cap he will be inducted in with, since hes had two tours with both us and the Rangers.

[DaveinMD]

37. he'll go in as an Oriole

Raffy is the only guy who could consistently hit Rivera. If hitting 3000 hits and 500 homers was easy, more people would have done it.

[JohnKleeb]

39. Yeah I get pissed off at those who act like it was not a small one

Only three other guys have done it, Mays, Aaron, and Murray, all great players. I thikn he should go in as an Oriole too, hes an amazing player, hes having a possible 30 home run year this year too.

[rinsd]

38. Point of order on Gwynn....

...he also did not strike out very often.

He averaged only 29 SO's a season over his career with a season high of 40.

He also had 5 gold gloves, 8 batting titles.

[JohnKleeb]

40. Thats amazing especially in our day to have that few Ks

I believe DiMaggio has the least strikeouts for a hall of famer with 369, I remember that since I heard a stat that Joe had as much HRs as he did strikeouts, and top of that his hitting streak is probably I think now the most unbreakable record not only in baseball but in al lsports. I think Gwynn deserves it, he also nearly hit 400 the strike year, that would have been amazing, a lot of what ifs that year, we were second behind the Yanks that year. I remember hearing about the strike when I was 7 that year, hard to believe it was 11 years ago but I remember it like it was yesterday almost.

[rinsd]

41. Oh man Kleeb....

...you're making me feel old and I'm not even 30 yet!

Yeah Joe D. and his SO vs HR rate is just plain ridiculous.

I think Gwynn also gets in on good guy points. He is probably the most beloved figure in San Diego, he does lots of charity work, has a Roberto Clemente award under his belt etc etc.

[JohnKleeb]

42. Hes a good guy

Only thing he missed was a series ring. Its a perfect 1:1 Ratio for Joe D, which is amazing beyond reason., hey I remember the 93 season too, I had a highlights video, the all star game at Camden Years.

[Ekirh]

43. You are correct on your Dimaggio stat

For awhile had did have more homeruns than strike outs but if my memory serves me collectly he ended up with less than ten strikeouts more than homeruns.... very impressive doesn't even cover that ratio. Holy fucking shit that's awesome I think does it just right :).


I remember the strike... cause I remember the Expos ahead of the Braves during that time. . . we were behind Montreal during that time. I was 12 when that happen.... that was also the year I went to my first Baseball game... which wasn't the Braves... but the Orioles versus the Whitesoxs.... that was a good time to.

[JohnKleeb]

44. The first game that I Remember I believe was in 94 or 95

against the California Angels, I remember that Jorge Farbagas was their catcher at the time, I thought the name was funny. I also remember a game Vs Detroit where Tony Phillips played for the Tigers, and I rememebr thinking of MoTown. I think my first game was in the late 80's though, my parents tell me that the older cousins, some of my uncles, and my folks went to opening day one year, I think 88 or 89, I would like it to be 89 since 88 is a year to forget in O's history. YEah youre right, it was a little more strikeouts, but still its near a 1:1 ratio, which amazes me.

[DaveinMD]

46. I'm a sabermetric guy

I don't really care how outs are made. They are still outs. Didn't walk very much and little power. So the batting averages weren't very robust.

[KitchenWitch]

34. And please tell me why Bert Blyleven is NOT in the HOF

GRRRRRRRRRRR

[Kathy in Cambridge]

20. Thankfully.

[DaveinMD]

22. I'm sure you feel that way

I'd rather you have to earn it.

[rinsd]

27. Dave...who could have come in instead?

You really have it in for Torre and I just don't get it.

[DaveinMD]

48. Mussina

could have pitched one more inning. He said so himself. Then you have F-Rod in the 8th and Gordon in the 9th. Groom is a much better loogy than Franklin, who has an era over 20 and has a career of sucking.

[rinsd]

50. Moose was up to 109 pitches....

...while not a slave to pitch counts, in this situation would you

a) Keep your starter in when the planned reliever is just coming off the DL and thorw him right inot the thick of it if the starter fails.

b) give the reliever the chance to pitch from a windup.

Gordon pitched on Monday and was needed yesterday.

Groom is better than Franklin though.

Its one of those things where he's damned if does, damned if he doesn't especially if they lose. I can't fault him for not firing bullets he simply does not have.

[DaveinMD]

51. Gordon didn't pitch on Monday

he was rested. Mussina has gone to 125 pitches this year. F-Rod has been pitching 2 innings in his rehab starts. He also thinks Franklin is good and only threw one bad pitch. That obviously wasn't true.

[sabbat hunter]

45. umm wrong

amazing how from 1996 - 2001 torre was a genius and now he is an idiot.
did you know since their low point this season, the yanks have the best record in baseball?

multiple injuries
no real CF.

yet still competing for first place

still think he is an idiot?

[DaveinMD]

47. I watch this team every day

and he makes so many mistakes its not funny. He didn't think Bernie was a problem in center until Cashman told him there was one. He mismanages the bullpen on a daily basis. He bats high obp guys lower in the order. There is just so much he does wrong.

[DaveinMD]

52. He gave another away

He pitches Groom to two batters righty batters instead of Rodriguez. Rodriguez is better against both righties and lefties. This sets up a GS. Rodriguez later pitched a 1-2-3 8th. This guy just can't manage.

[JohnKleeb]

53. I am beginning to see what you mean

Groom's a good pitcher but you use him against lefties.