Should Gaylord Perry be kicked out of the HOF?

[Fight_n_back]

He is an admitted cheater. He cheated by breaking the rules of baseball in oreder to have more success.

How about Whitey Ford? He admitted in a TV interview and in an autobiography that he cut the baseball.

What about Cy Young? He played when spitballs were legal but aren't his 511 wins tatinted by the fact that he played in a run reduced "moist ball era"?

Those guys cheated and are in the hall and I don't see any moral outrage at their inclusion.

Why are Mark McGwire, Barry Bonds and Rafael Palmeiro held to a different standard?

Or Sammy Sosa, Mike Piazza, the 92 Phillies, Albert Belle, Greg Vaughn, Jeff Kent, Tim Salmon and g_d knowa who else.

There is no rational reason that steroids should be considered a different level of cheating that doctoring the baseball, which is considered "cute" by most fans.

[NorCalDem]

1. Thank you for stating the obvious

I hate all the discussion about Raffy now. Yes, he's a Hall-of-Famer, the guy is one of two people in MLB history with 3000 hits and 500 homers.

[JohnKleeb]

2. one of four

Mays, Aaron, and Murray are the other three.

[NorCalDem]

7. You are right

and if he gets to 600 he in a two-some with Aaron.

Thanks for correcting me

[JohnKleeb]

9. And Mays too, 660

[TomInTib]

3. Perry/Ford/Young...

broke the rules(?) by playing with what they had.

The 'roids boyz played with what they weren't.

[Fight_n_back]

4. That is ludicrous

Barry Bonds was the best player in baseball before steroids and the best after.

Scuffing the ball is playing with what you don't have. It is doctoring a ball in order to have it move in a way you naturally cannot make it move.

Perhaps you don't know enough about this to be in the discussion.

[TomInTib]

5. "after"?

there may not be any "after". Ol' Barry with 5% off his bat speed wouldn't sell many tickets.

As far as a mea culpa, I'm a pitcher's dad and am always quick to defend #9 in the lineup. I am also opposed to steroid use by MLB pitchers because of the impact on younger players. Look what has already happened to some of the speed pitchers. Radical dropoff in MPH.

And as far as "know about this" I have coached Select (15-18) National teams.

Thank you

[Fight_n_back]

6. Then make a logical argument

why is one type of cheating worse than another.

Gambling is playing worse than you can for money.

Doctoring the ball is trying to play better than you can.

Steroids is trying to play better than you can.

What rational reason is there for an outcry against one type of cheating than another?

HEalth? Jsut the act of pitching is bad for you. The average NFL player's lifespan is twenty years shorter than the average man and boxing is legal for crissake. We don't seem too concerned about those health issues.

Plus you cannot point to one study about the long term effects of steroid use becasue there haven't been any. All of the evidence is anecdotal.

Will thhis "example" make kids think cheating is okay? People cheat at SOLITARE. It doesn't matter if there is money, fame or even an opponent in involved. Some people want to win.

If Palmeiro shouldn't go to the Hall then neither should Gaylord Perry, Warren Spahn, Lefty Grove or the myriad other pitchers that cheated for advantage.

What about Ron Santo? He took a drug which allowed him to play in the major leagues. If he didn't take that drug he would not have been able to play. Well, because he would have been dead. The same could be said about Bobby Clarke or even the many asthmatics whose medication allow them to participate.

Barry Bonds with 5% less bat speed? That would still make him faster than 95% of all players. The difference between him and the rest of the league cannot be attributed to steroids or else Palmeiro would be doing as well.

The fact that you coach teenagers doesn't make you qualified to speak about steroids. Bud Selig is the commissioner of baseball and he knows less about steroids than Jose Canseco, who is an idiot.

This argument rings hollow unless everyone is willing to give Ken Griffey Jr extra points for not taking steroids. I don't think he takes them because, he has a normal career trajectory and it would imply that he works out which he most demonstrably does not.

[TomInTib]

8. Raffy belongs in the HOF

no matter what.

Bonds, too.

Stats are stats, circumstance is what circumstance is.

[erpowers]

11. That is Just Stupid

To compare a medicine that keeps someone alive to a medicine that is taken to allow a person to make more money, have more fame, and get into the Hall of Fame is just stupid. The difference between the guys that took medicine to stay alive and the ones who took steroids is that the medicine taken by guys like Bobby Clarke did not help them put up better numbers. Guys like Bonds and Palmerio did not take steroids to stay alive or to have the ability to play the game. They took those drugs to get more money and other things.

First, gambling is not in itself cheating. Gambling is taking a chance with money or something else. A person can cheat at gambling. However, if a person is caught cheating at gambling they are not going to keep the money. If you try to make the argument that doctoring the ball is cheating that would seem to mean to me that the ball should only be thrown in places were every player can it the ball in that throwing the ball anywhere else would be cheating. In addition, doctoring the ball does not actually prevent someone from hitting the ball in that a person can still see the ball and where the ball is going. So that person can still hit the ball. Therefore, the argument can be made that doctoring the ball is not cheating in that the ball in actuallity is not harder to hit. In my opinion, to say that doctoring the ball is cheating you would have to say that throwing a curve ball is cheating in that the ball is not going straight at the player.

[Fight_n_back]

15. You're calling ME stupid?

I don't say doctoring the ball is cheating, Major League baseball does. Doing something against the rules is cheating. Doctoring the baseball is against the rules.

Insulin allowed Ron Santo to play baseball. If he didn't take it he would not have been able to play. Rafael Palmeiro was able to play baseball without steroids. They made him better. The point isn't whether taking insulin is like taking steroids, the point is what is your actual objection to steroids? Why is cheating with steroids the worst kind of cheating?

Gambling on baseball is against the rules of baseball and has been since 1920. The issue with gambling is that a player may (and certainly have) played worse in order to gamble. Steroids is cheating in order to get better. It does not strike at the integrity of the game because the player is still trying to win. Therefore it falls in the same category as doctoring the baseball or stealing signs. No more, no less.

If Barry Bonds, McGwire and Palmeiro can't go to the HAll then neither can Whitey Ford, Don Sutton, Gaylord Perry or any memebr of the 1951 Giants who have admitted to signalling batters the oppossing pitcher's pitch selection.

[MaineDem]

14. Comparing insulin to steroids?

That's a false and ridiculous comparison.

Sorry, you've lost all credibility with me now. And you were doing fairly well in convincing me. No more.

Edited for spelling.

[DaveinMD]

12. they doctored

the baseball which is cheating.

[erpowers]

10. Your Are Very Wrong

There is a big difference between doctoring the shape or form of a baseball and taking steroids. Steroids inhance the ability of a player. Does cutting a baseball stop a person who hits the ball from being able to hit a home run? A person who takes steroids has the ability to turn what would have been a fly ball into a home run. Steroids can turn an player who would not have been able to get into Major League Baseball into a professional player. Unless the guys you mentioned used these tatics to get into professional baseball they got into baseball on their talent. In addition, their talent had more to do with their success than doctoring the shape/form of a baseball.

Furthermore, you mentioned that the spit ball was legal when Cy Young was a pitcher. Therefore, that is another difference, steroids are and have been illegal for some time now. So when Cy Young was throwing spitball it was not illegal. However, when McGwire at el were taking steroids they were illegal.

[K-W]

13. Your logic, essentially, is that all cheating is the same.

I dont really see how you can assume that.

Now regardless of how you feel about steriods versus cutting the ball they are two different things. Not all cheating is the same just as not all crimes are the same. The wrongness of the act, and thus the amount of punishment is deserved depends on the specific case. I think that is a fairly well established ethical principal.

By your logic shoplifters should be put in prison for life or murderers shouldnt go to prison because a crime is a crime.

[HuckleB]

16. 'Xactly.

[getmeouttahere]

17. I wouldn't argue that one form of cheating is different...

from another, nor the cheater's suitability for the HOF. What I would argue is that the players of yesterday were better because they didn't have the advantage of the advances in training, health maintenance or surgical methods. What if Mickey Mantle had been able to have the kind of knee surgery that athletes today have? Or Bobby Orr, for that matter.

I think McGwire or Bonds couldn't carry Hank Aaron's jockstrap, because Aaron did it all with what he had, naturally. No herbal supplements, no chemicals, no personal trainers.