I'm disgusted. McGuire+Sosa+Clemens=FRAUDS

[StevieM]

It has just recently dawned on me that the last 8-10 years of baseball has all been an illusion. Almost none of it has been real. And what was real is going to be very hard to pick out and identify. But here's what we do know.

Mark McGuire wasn't superstar. By '93 he wasn't even a star. He had a couple of seasons where he barely hit over 200. Then he had a remarkable turnaround. The truth is that McGuire was like Dave Kingman. At best he was George Foster. Some good seasons, but not that great of a player. Certainly not Hall of Fame material, or even good enough to get a single vote for the Hall.

Sammy Sosa wasn't big and bulky when he started playing. And he was never seen as a mega-star. Then he suddenly put on 40 lbs. and started picking up bat speed. Interestingly, he stopped hitting monster homeruns right around the time that baseball's new steroids testing policy began.

Clemens bothers me the most. Roger Clemens was a career on the decline from 93-96. During that period he was a 500 pitcher on a team that was 10 games over 500 for that same period. Then in late 96 he all of a sudden got stronger and stuck out 20 in a game at the age of 34. In 97 and 98 he was suddenly a Cy Young winner again. Now at the age of 43 he has a 1.35 ERA in an era of high ERAs.

In other words, we are asked to believe that Roger could do what Walter Johnson, Dan Marino and Michael Jordan could not. The same Roger whose best days seemed in the past after he reached 30, and kept looking that way for 4 seasons. He didn't even look, at that point (mid-96), like a certain Hall of Famer. At best he had a 50/50 shot. At best he would have gone in on the 5th ballot. And even that is assuming that things went reasonably well. But things weren't going well for Roger in mid-96 and they hadn't been for quite some time. Then all of the sudden something changed.

The sport of baseball is shot from all this garbage, and I don't know how to fix the record books short of calling every player of the last 20 years in and demanding they take lie-detector tests. Joe Morgan said it best: "there's not a big enough asterisk to handle all of this."

Steve

[bullimiami]

1. dont forget bonds and others.

all of the records should be purged. it was obvious and they just kept telling us is wasnt so.

[StevieM]

7. I left Bonds off because I believe he was a superstar before....

he started using steroids. He is the one person on the list who seemed certain to go into the Hall of Fame. As for the others, only Clemens had a shot, and not even that great of a shot IMO.

Steve

[SteppingRazor]

2. Disagree somewhat...

All of these guys started out with a lot of raw talent. Let's not forget that when he was still a little guy (relatively speaking), in his rookie year, Mcguire banged out 40 home runs -- setting a rookie record. This was years before he bulked up and gained bat speed (in the same manner as Sosa and Bonds)

Of course, I don't agree with what they've done. Just playing devil's advocate and pointing out that all of these players had talent and, in some cases, were certainly hall of fame worthy.

[StevieM]

5. McGuire had a great rookie year, and he actually hit

49 homers. But he couldn't sustain it. Neither could Kingman and Foster. I left Barry Bonds off the list because he was a Hall of Famer, who made himself even better when he started with the steroids. But I don't believe McGuire or Sosa were, and Clemens was by no means a lock. We don't know what would have happened in Toronto, but he wasn't looking too good in Boston. I don't believe he would have been as good as Glavine or Smoltz, let alone Maddux. I suspect he would have gone down in history a little below Jack Morris, a little ahead of David Cone.

And BTW, who knows what Cone's final number would have been if he hadn't been up against pitchers and hitters on steroids. That especially holds true for Glavine. Smoltz is tricky because he became a reliever, but without steroids the whole dynamic of the game would have been different and he might have stayed a starter and finished with 250 wins and 3000 strikeouts. Basically, what Clemens might have had under the most incredibly favorable of circumstances. Except Clemens wasn't a great post-season pitcher, whereas Smoltz was an all-time great post-season guy from 91-96. Better then Maddux.

Steve

[FloridaPat]

3. Maybe if the salaries went down to what a teacher makes and the fans

and players show up for the sport of the game and not the money, the steriod use would stop or people wouldn't care because it's fun, not a business. And by the way, "what will we tell the children?"

[madrchsod]

4. how many home runs could have

frank thomas hit if he had been on hgh and roids? but frank never did and his injuries were not covered up thru the years.yes these guys have made alot of us white sox fans appreciate frank all the more.

[StevieM]

6. Agreed!!! Frank Thomas, as well as Fred McGriff, got screwed (eom)

x

[sellitman]

8. Coopertown's plaques from this decade should all have an *

I live close enough to visit every year and these steroid monsters are spoiling everyhthing!

[StevieM]

9. But what about people like Tony Gwynn, Frank Thomas and

Greg Maddux? These guys played by the rules. Maybe guys like Maddux and Glavine should have an asterisk to denote that their numbers would have been even higher had they not been cheated.

Steve

[sellitman]

10. The sad thing is it's hard to say who is guilty and who isn't.

For some it's black and white, like Big Mac. For others...who knows? that's what sucks the most.

[KitchenWitch]

11. It saddens me that the sport I love so much has been tarnished by this

There is a special place in hell for such deceivers.

[KarenInMA]

12. about Clemens...

and if you can't tell from my avatar, I hate the man with the heat of 1000 suns.

here's why:

From 93-96, as you said, he was not an ace. He was a good pitcher, a reliable 1st guy, but not the superstar we all thought he would be. Dan Duquette (also: HAAAATE!), said he was in the "twilight of his career" and did not give him the money he thought he deserved. He got pissed, spent the whole winter working out, and the rest is history.

Now, Sox fans don't hate him because he left (well, not entirely) but because for the years previous to this, he sucked. He felt the need to "prove himself" to Toronto the ^$%@#@ Yankees :mad: and then the Astros.

We hate him because he mailed it in in Boston. No one really thinks he's on steriods.

[StevieM]

13. I just find Clemens' current numbers to be difficult to believe

He is 43 and has 1.35 ERA. That's unheard of, and I don't believe Clemens is the one who could do it. I also wonder if he started the steroids in 96 in Boston. His numbers were better that year and he had that 20-strikeout game. That was a turning point for Clemens, the 20 strikeouts. It seems like it should be a hard thing to do at the age of 34.

I realize that I have no proof about Roger, just suspicions. But that's the problem. With every player the suspicion is now there. Every number is now suspect.

Steve

[DaveinMD]

14. you can be a workout warrior without roids

I am very suspicious of clemens, but its quite possible he's clean.

[StevieM]

15. There is one thing that no warrior can work his way out of:

aging. It can't be stopped, and until recently neither could its impact on an athlete.

Steve

[DaveinMD]

16. Clemens' hero is Nolan Ryan

he was also a freak of nature and a workout fiend. Its possible.

[StevieM]

17. But look at Ryan's number when he got older

they weren't so great, he just kept compiling more strikeouts to his total. But his Won-Loss record and ERA were nothing special, I think they might have even been below average. I'll go check. The point is that we're not talking about a few players' ability to stay in the game, but rather their ability to pitch at the level of Walter Johnson and hit at the level of Babe Ruth when they are past the age of 40.

Steve

[DaveinMD]

18. well

he's having this season in the midst of testing. Many other guys have had sharp declines in their numbers since testing was put into place. So you can't assume anything.

[StevieM]

19. I admit that we don't know for certain, but what we do know

is that plenty of players are still taking steroids. The testing policy is far from fool-proof. Players are picked at random. Only a small percentage are tested. And I believe that there are ways of trying to beat the test, I think urine tests are more easily decieved then blood tests. And I seem to remember hearing that one steroid, the human growth hormone, is undetectable. So I am not convinced that steroids are out of baseball. I also have questions about Jason Giambi hitting 14 homeruns in one month, the most in a single month by a Yankee since Mickey Mantle in 1961.

Steve

[DaveinMD]

21. Jason Giambi

has constant blood work because of the tumor he is still being treated for. Baseball has access to that blood work. It would be near impossible for him to be cheating.

[StevieM]

20. Ryan was 71-74 after he hit 40 (eom)

x

[DaveinMD]

23. W-L

doesn't tell you much about pitching performance. It doesn't tell me what his era was, what his K rate was, his whip and other much more useful metrics.

[ProfessorGAC]

25. Better Check Those Ryan Numbers Stevie

I believe that in his 40's Ryan led the league in ERA with the Astros, who were so bad that he still had a losing record. He's the only pitcher in history to do that. (And he did it twice. Won the league ERA title and had a losing record.)

Ryan's ERA and BPA were always very good, and he threw (i think) three of his no-hitters in his 40's. At least two of them, anyway.

I'm kind of protective of Ryan. If that guy had pitched for even half his career with a contending team, he would have at least 30 more wins and 30 fewer losses. Then, nobody would be saying he was a .500 pitcher.

IMO, Ryan was the one the three best right handed pitchers who ever played. And, i think his ERA in his early 40's was pretty darned good.

The Professor

[KarenInMA]

22. But Clemens is now only a "part time player"

He doesn't travl with the team. He doesn't go to games if he's not pitching. The travel and wear and tear of a 162 game season really gets to a player. Clemens is spared that.

[DaveinMD]

24. I think

he's been pitching on the road this year.

[erpowers]

26. Proof

I know it is not that great of a piece of proof, but you do have the fact that he was mentioned in Jose Canseco's book. Look what happened to the other person mentioned in Canseco's book who denied that he used steriods. I am not saying that Clemens is a user, but it is possible. Finally, why do you think there is not more discussion about Clemens possible use of steriods?

[StevieM]

27. I think people are terrified to even mention the possibility

Could you imagine if Roger Clemens was on steroids since 1996? A man regarded as one of the all-time great pitchers? A man who has won 4 Cy Youngs since then? Clemens is a much bigger star then Palmeiro is.

If Clemens was busted for steroids it would send shock waves through the industry--and the country. It would rock baseball to its very core and make this scandal as big as the black sox scandal (which it really should be already). I think people are terrified to ask. But I have a terrible feeling that I already know the answer.

Steve