Rahman vs Toney: Heavyweight Boxing

[H2O Man]

Tonight on HBO, the Hasim Rahman versus James Toney fight will take place starting at 10 pm est. It should be an interesting fight.

Rahman is 33 years old; stands 6'2"; weighs 238 lbs; and has a reach of 84 inches. His record is 41-5-1, with 33 KOs. He is the former world heavyweight champion, having flattened Lennox Lewis in 2001. He was knocked out in the return match, had a dismal period, and then began a "winning streak" against mid-level opposition. Most recently, he beat Monte Barrett in a fight that was considered boring, largely because of Barrett unwillingness to fight.

Toney is 37 years old; stands 5'9"; weighs 237 lbs; and has a 75" reach. His record is 69-4-2, with 43 KOs. He was the middleweight, super middleweight, and cruiserweight champion; he also beat John Ruiz for one of the comic book titles, though he had that victory removed for steroid use (it appears he used steroids, as prescribed, for an injury). Toney has had a number of impressive victories in an intense career; they include the win over Michael Nunn, and more recently, victories over Vassillin Jirov and Evander Hollyfield.

A good case can be made for either fighter winning tonight. Rahman has the physical tools to win, but has not often fought at a level that reaches his full potential. Toney is the Archie Moore of our era, though he has a chip on his shoulder that does not always benefit him. On ESPN last night, they said he had been up to 280 lbs, and recently was over 250. It is not good to lose weight quickly at an older age.

I saw where Bob Arum said, "I have never seen a period of time when the heavyweight championship meant so little. It's clear."

In the May '06 Ring magazine, in the "Nostagia Corner" (page 27), they had a photo of Jimmy Ellis, Leotis Martin, Thad Spencer, and Ernie Terrell, promoting the first round of the WBA tournament in 1967. I e-mailed them, for two reasons: first, they erred in reporting the results of those August fights, having said Ellis decisioned Spencer, and Terrell stopped Martin. In fact, Spencer decisioned Terrell, and Ellis stopped Martin. ( The other first round fights were Jerry Quarry decisioning Floyd Patterson, and Oscar Bonavena decisioning Karl Mildenberger. In round two, Ellis decisioned Bonavena, decking him twice; and Quarry stopped Spencer with about 5 seconds left in the fight. Then Ellis decisioned Quarry. Interestingly, the "underdog" won each of the 7 fights in the tournament.)

Second, I suggested boxing would do well to have another heavyweight tournament today.

[dr.zoidberg]

1. My pick.

The entertainment factor of this fight will come down to Hasim Rahman, not James Toney. We know what to expect from Toney. How good Rahman is depends on two questions: 1) is he in shape?, and 2) is he motivated to fight?. From the weigh-in, the first question looks to be answered. We must wait, unfortunately, for the fight to begin to answer the second. In my mind, Hasim Rahman is a wasted talent. Every time I see him fight I hope to see the version of Rahman that KO'd Lennox Lewis. More often than not, however, the version of Rahman that usually shows up is the one who got knocked out of the ring by Oleg Maskaev. In the end, I'll pick James Toney by UD.

A heavyweight tournament would be great today. Unfortunately, there has been more talk that action about it. There may be some hope, though. As much as I dislike Don King, the fact that he wants a tournament to happen means that it may happen in the future. It doesn't have to be a large tournament. At the very least they could put the four champions in have them fight it out.

Right now, the most exciting division in boxing is at Flyweight. The depth of the division is impressive with long time champion Ponsaklek Wongjongkam, Jorge Arce, Vic Darchinyan, with veterans Omar Navarez, Takefumi Sakata, and Rosendo Alvarez. The division also has the hottest prospect in all of boxing right now, Koki Kameda. I might even throw down the $50 for Maywether/Judah just so I can see the Arce/Alvarez. The fight has one the most exciting boxers today in Arce against the man who pushed the legendary Ricardo Lopez twice to the limit in Alvarez. That one is certainly a fight worth watching.

[H2O Man]

3. I agree

with you on Rahman, and his mostly wasted talent. Also that the flyweights have many very talented, and evenly matched fighters. I think that the welterweights have a good pool of talent, including some guys a few pounds above and below the division. I would think that a Hatton vs Mayweather fight would be exciting, and good for the sport.

Have you heard anything about Lamon Brewster fighting Samuel Peter? World Boxing magazine mentions it, but doesn't specify if it is for real, or simply something they think could happen. It used to be a good boxing magazine, but is pretty cheesy these days.

[GOPisEvil]

2. Toney is 237 lbs?

Cripes, I'm about 5'8", 210 and I look huge sometimes. 237 cannot be a good weight for him. Yikes.

[H2O Man]

4. Can you picture

him at 280 lbs? Double yikes! Toney is a strange man. He is the most relaxed fighter in the sport today, and if you are relaxed, you don't get tired. I could see the extra weight tiring him out, though. At least slowing him down. But the guy is full of surprises, and he seems very confident that he's got this fight in the bag.

[TSIAS]

5. Toney's quite a fighter

I remember he started his career at Super Middleweight. Even a couple of years ago he was fighting in the Cruiserweight division against Jirov at around 190 pounds. Now he's up to nearly 240 pounds, but doesn't seem to have lost any of his skills.

I predict a boring fight with Toney thoroughly frusterating Rahman. I give Rahman a big puncher's chance, as he's knocked out Lewis and Corrie Sanders with one punch. But I think it will be hard for him to land that shot.

The HW division is such a mess right now. I hope that the loser of this fight is relegated out of the "top tier", but I doubt that will happen. I don't get what Rahman has done to deserve the shot at this title belt.

There needs to be a series of matchups between the winner of this fight, Lamon Brewster (should he get by Lyakovich next month), the winner of Byrd/Klitschko II, and perhaps a fighter like Peter or Valuev. However, the reality is that a joke of a contender like Oleg Maskaev will get a mandatory title shot before any sort of unification tournament is held.

[H2O Man]

6. He started

as a middleweight. It is strange to watch film of him when he was young and trim.

[H2O Man]

7. A draw .....

odd fight, odd decision.

[dr.zoidberg]

8. More like crap decision.

I have no idea what two of the judges were watching. Rahman clearly outworked Toney down the stretch. Sure, Toney landed clean punches, but none of them seemed to hurt Rahman. Also, I don't think you can win a round when one fighter throws four clean punches and the other lands ten jabs and a few chopping rights.

My scorecard had it 8 rounds to 4, for Rahman. A total gift draw for Toney.

[H2O Man]

9. I thought it

was about 7-5 for Rahman, as did my son.

[dr.zoidberg]

13. I re-watched the fight...

and I pretty much scored it he same as before, but what I noticed the most is that neither man seemed to want to win the fight. Specifically, neither man finished strong and it looked to me as if both men were just trying to make it through the 12th round. Their was no real winner on Saturday night and considering the state of the heavyweight division, that seems rather appropriate.

[Ekirh]

14. As I've stated

I'm unknowledgable in boxing so exactly how bad is the state of the heavyweight division. The commentators made mention about it at times . . and I've heard here and there it's dismal. So since I'm in a thread with two real boxing fans I figure I ask . . how bad is it and how long has it been this bad?

[dr.zoidberg]

15. I'll try to answer.

The heavyweight division has been a mess since Lennox Lewis retired a few years back. To add to the problem, we have either old fighters past their prime(Holyfield), fighters who are terribly inconsistent(Rahman), or fighters that are plain boring(Ruiz). Now, the salvation of the heavyweights may be a few years away. Their is the youngster Calvin Brock, who I am personally very high about, as well as Sam Peter, although we will have to see whether he can improve his skills, and a crew of young European fighters.

As for how bad, I have heard some compare the state of today's division to the state of the division as it was in the pre-Tyson/post-Holmes era. The main comparison is that both eras are made up of fighters who are unspectacular and inconsistent.

Edit: I like the pic you have of the Great Muta.

[Ekirh]

16. Thanks for answering

Sorry to hear about the state of the division right now. Never been that much of a boxing fan . . but I have respect for the sport and participants. My Dad who was a boxing fan use to at times explain to me his favorite fights and fighters and why and such when I was younger. He stopped watching a few years ago.

Also, thanks for the compliment on the Muta pic. . . I wasn't sure if anyone would know who the hell that was ;).

[H2O Man]

18. The heavyweight division

tends to go in cycles. There were significant down-slides after Dempsey and Tunney, up until Louis. After Louis, some people felt it was "down" until Marciano. I would disagree, as both Wolcott and Charles were outstanding fighter; Charles was the greatest amateur boxer ever, and my choice for the greatest light heavyweight. He didn't win the title in that division because of WW2. After Rocky, some considered Floyd Patterson and Ingo J. a "down slide. Liston seemed unbeatable until Clay.

The Ali-Frazier-Foreman era was likely the greatest in heavyweight history. (I respect that others may disagree.) There were contenders who would have won the title at most times, like Ken Norton. Guys like Quarry, Shavers, and Bonavena were tough men. The division was usually 12-15 deep. Then came the "post-Ali" era, which featured Larry Holmes, a great fighter who beat a lot of good opponents.

After Holmes, it looked "down," until Mike Tyson. Then Holyfield and Lewis. The division was not as deep, because the guys were not dedicated to training. Discipline was a lost art. Guys like Greg Page and Tim Witherspoon had great potential, but blew it by partying. Don King was a virus on boxing, too.

I agree that the heavyweights are 1 to 2 years away from being solid again. In my opinion, we are in an interesting phase, but I will admit that what appear to be bad decisions can hurt boxing's reputation. Still, watching a fight from ringside, where the judges are, is very different from tv. There are some advantages to both, but judging can best be done at ringside.

The strangest thing is when there is a wide variance between judges. When I used to judge amateur fights, the promoters and AAU folks looked for who was generally in line with others. A judge who sees fights way differently than the two others too often should be dropped. I consider poor judging and refs to be a bigger problem than the temporary lull in the heavyweights.

[TSIAS]

17. I thought Rahman won the fight

There were a number of close rounds, so the draw result is not that big of an outrage to me.

It seems like Rahman didn't care that much. The HBO announcers noted that he's already bankrupt. He will retain his bout and likely get another nice payday in a Toney rematch.

The division is truly in awful shape. I had hoped for Samuel Peter to beat Klitschko last year. Although his skills are very raw, he's explosive enough to capture the public's interest.

I atill think that Wladimir Klitschko could be a force if Steward helps him improve stamina-wise. I think the criticism of his chin is overrated. The only time he was truly knocked out by a big punch was in the Sanders fight. The loss to Brewster can be attributed to fatigue rather than a weak chin.

The thing that's sad about the division is that Rahman/Toney was actually one of the more exciting heavyweight fights in the last year, and that's saying something.

[Ekirh]

10. I know nothing of boxing.

How it's scored . . . or how the judges decide what. With that being said HBO is free this weekend so I decided to give boxing a try. I haven't watched box since the Holyfield/Tyson ear incident.


I honestly thought (Unknownledge opinion) That Rahman won the match. Just because in my opinion he looked much MUCH better in later rounds. Toney seemed good and maybe even better in some of the earlier rounds . . but I thought over all Rahman had won it. The draw really caught me off guard.. I expected Rahman to get it.

Like I said though this is my unknowledgable opinion. First boxing match in years.

[dr.zoidberg]

11. Congratulations! You are correct!

:) Seriously though, I don't think either of them deserved to win. I feel that way because it seemed to me that neither man was willing to put forth the effort to close the deal.

[Ekirh]

12. Yah

I felt that in the final rounds.... that both men were running out of gas and neither man was willing to try to put forth a final burst of energy or anything. So I can understand the feeling of neither winning . . but I still think if one was to get it . . it should've been Rahman. Hopefuly Toney will be in better shape in whatever his next bout is. My very first thought before the match began was "woah that dude's weight is going to be an issue."