Another subject

[hyphenate]

I once knew this guy who wanted most of all in his heart to be a writer. And I'm sure that some of his ideas were good, but I had a very large problem with them.

Since I had done work both editing and proofing for about 6 years before I met this guy (as well as many years of writing myself), I found his manuscripts atrocious, and could not, for the life of me, read them without prejudice.

His grammar, his spelling and his overall style sucked. The spelling, especially, was among the worst I had ever seen in my life, and I told him so. He smiled and told me that it didn't matter--that it was the editor's job to clean up those kinds of things.

I shook my head, but didn't reply. It was up to him to discover that attention to details such as basic grammar and spelling were crucial in getting accepted as a "real" writer....no one, especially an overworked junior editor, would give two seconds to a manuscript as badly written as his were.

I know he went on to some writing workshops, but I don't know if he was ever published. If he actually learned some hard lessons along the way, perhaps he was able to change that kind of thinking that he had in respect to his work. It is often difficult to advise someone that their greatest weakness is overoverconfidence in their work.

These days, I feel that some writers are not willing to concede that some concessions to tradition are necessary. Many of them embrace work that is against that--spelling, grammar and style work against conventions, trying to appear instead to be "cutting edge" instead of following rules which have been in place for hundreds of years in some cases. They want to appear modern, popular and exclusive, playing to an audience for whom short attention spans are accepted, and who disdain anything that smacks of archaic or "old." Street language is their norm, and staid rules of grammar are their enemy.

This is okay if you are writing to a certain intellectual level and age group that will be the main target of your writing, but if you wish to write to a broader audience, you need to follow acceptable conventions of writing that do not break certain "laws." It is difficult for a broader audience to accept and understand some colloquialisms that are common among some smaller groups, and in trying to write material that will be (hopefully) read by this audience, the author must take into consideration that fact.

If a writer doesn't want to learn the basics of writing, then he or she isn't going to be able to convince people that he or she wants to do anything more than challenge accepted norms. It is easier for an accomplished and educated author to compose material that can be written to a specific, less educated audience, for example, than it is for an undereducated "rebel" to write to a more sophisticated one.

The only advice I can give to someone who wants to write for a living is to make certain that the basic rules of writing--spelling, grammar and style--are acknowledged before going into a writing arena where such rules can be abandoned with intent. This is from someone who has been on both sides of the pen--the writer, and the editor.

[itzamirakul]

1. Question...

Can you explain why this phrase is grammatically correct:

"would give two seconds to a manuscript as badly written as his were."

I would have thought it more correct to say:

"would give two seconds to manuscripts as badly written as his were."

Or:

"would give two seconds to a manuscript as badly written as his was."

I don't understand referencing a singular manuscript and then the use of the plural "were."

Also:

"This is okay if you are writing to a certain intellectual level and age group that will be the main target of your writing, but if you wish to write to a broader audience, you need to follow acceptable conventions of writing that do not break certain "laws." It is difficult for a broader audience to accept and understand some colloquialisms that are common among some smaller groups, and in trying to write material that will be (hopefully) read by this audience, the author must take into consideration that fact."

To me, this sounds like such a conservative mind set when it comes to the freedom of writing. The "breaking of laws..." I agree that certain writing standards have been established over the years and those standards make it easy for all of us to share in reading enjoyment. But to think that things must always stay the same way does not give much opportunity for creativity. If there is genius in the writing, I think it will out itself regardless of the writing style.

I would think that some members of the broader audience would want to stretch their minds and imaginations by reading and trying to understand some of the "colloquialisms" prevalent in other cultures, including the "street culture" as a means of expanding their own intelligence. Certainly not ALL members of the broader mainstream audience will want to read ALL books, but perhaps some members will.

Since the late 1940s I have read a few books that used the street vernacular of the period and although many of those terms are no longer used, I felt very "with it" at the time. These were not the only books that I read, but they certainly gave me a varied outlook on life. Among my favorite titles were: The Amboy Dukes and Gypsy Rose Lee's murder mysteries, The G-String Murders and Mother Finds a Body.(Of course I had to sneak and read those books.) During the same period I was also reading such stories as Ethan Frome and The Secret Garden. I still delight in reading and spend many hours reading posts such as on this forum,, newsletters, magazines, history books and on and on...

I am neither a specialist in grammar nor an editor. But I do write plays that have been produced in NYC and in other cities that have been quite well-received.

[hyphenate]

2. In reviewing that sentence

I find you are correct. I should have used the word "was" and not "were." There are, however, instances where you might think that "was" should be used, but in reality, a sunjunctive phrase makes the use of "were" correct. The subjunctive phrase is little understood by many students, and I recommend familiarizing yourself with it at any rate. It is the rule by which "I wish I were" is proper, and "I wish I was" is not. What is acceptable in conversation does not always hold up well to scrutiny in written language.

In this instance you have pointed out, I wrote it at 12:30 in the morning, and obviously did not internally edit as sufficiently as I should have. I am not shy to admit that I am not perfect, and occasionally, mistakes are made. As it so happens, one of the mistakes I often find myself making is in the use of homophones and typing the incorrect word, even those I obviously meant another. A homophone is a series of words which are spelled differently, but which sound identical to each other. "To, two, too" and "they're, their, and there" are two familiar and commonly used groups.

As far as your second question, what I was attempting to convey was simply that writing a piece filled with slang, for example, written by an "omniscient" narrator brings the piece to a lower level. If, however, the intent is clear that an undereducated or uneducated person is narrating it, then the piece can stand on its own. One would certainly hope that a writer would keep this in mind when he or she wrote the piece initially in order to make that clear.

Experimental writing certainly has its place in literature. It is also true, however, that many of the novels and fiction books on the market now could use a more thorough editing than they receive. Rules of grammar have often been overlooked intentionally or because the editor is also unfamiliar with certain guidelines. For a very long time, rules of grammar have remained in place to a degree that we are able to read and understand the writings of authors of centuries past. It is clear, however, that at some point there was a massive overhaul of the English language, because we have seen such work as Geoffrey Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, which barely makes sense at all now to many of us. And for the most part, much of the change that has occurred since those times has been good.

It is not so much a matter of writing a book to fit an audience that I am objecting to--as you notice, I do say that books or narrations provided by characters themselves should be written in the vernacular of the narrator. That is great! If one can master the language, the slang, the entire meaning of such a subset of English in order to make an account sound more realistic, I am more than happy to give them credit.

The problem arises when (as I said above) an account by a third person omniscient is used, and is written in the same manner as a personal narrative is. The third person omniscient is often referred to as the "god" of the piece, and should act as such when it comes to proprietary rules of grammar. Many people won't take a piece seriously if this kind of narration is badly written. As such, this particular kind of writing needs to adhere more to those traditional rules and guidelines of the English language.

In such a piece, it is perfectly fine to let the characters speak in whatever method they might speak from their upbringing to ensure some authentic tone in the piece. It is, however, crucial to remember that the "author" (narrator) of the piece is not involved in the action, but is relaying it and thus must be apart from the story, not a part of it.

I hope that explains it.

As far as your own writing, congratulations! The only difference I would point out is that as a playwright, you are honor bound to look more at language and speech than at narration and authorship within a piece. You strive to make the characters speak as easily and as naturally as possible, which is the main difference between the two separate areas of writing in this case. A novelist has no visuals to create a scene for a reader--he or she must create that whole cloth for the audience, while a playwright has the opportunity to present a situation with established visuals and a greater sense of what the circumstances are within the piece.

[itzamirakul]

3. I hope that you understand that I was not criticizing you but

merely asking a question...and I do appreciate your response.

I was a straight A student in English from elementary school through grad school. Although I excelled in analysis, composition and essay, I somehow managed to hide a strong deficit in grammar. Grammar, to me, was like math or science...really difficult for me to grasp after a certain while. Basics, yes...after that...well...To this day, diagramming a sentence is like asking me to read hieroglyphics.

I directed a play here in NYC that was entered into competition in the Samuel French Festival last week. Although we were finalists, we did not, alas, win in the end. The prize, of course, was publication by French. I did not write this play but I had to be aware of the playwright's meaning so that the piece could be appreciated by judges and audience members of totally different cultures than the characters in the play.

I mention this play because the two characters were women of the same age, same race, yet from different classes...a condition that played itself out in the use of street vernacular vs the vernacular of the educated middle class. It required an understanding of unstated similarities and mutual pain shared by the characters. (It was important that the audience understand that the character who spoke in urban-speak was also educated...meaning that she had attended school and had a high school diploma...she spoke in street vernacular as a result of environment and personal choice.)

The actresses were superb, each of them easily moving into a dialect that was not standard for either. I guess that is why I feel that reading material that offers different kinds of slang has helped me as a director and as an actor when I infrequently perform these days. Of course not everyone needs to read slang-filled books for that reason, but the audience's reaction showed me that they had received information with understanding that had been as foreign to them prior to the performance as Russian is to me without translation.

Don't get me wrong...I am not advocating a slang-filled literary world, but I have found it to have its own value. :) And I think Tom and Huck and Louisa May used a bit of slang in their stories as well! :)

I'll tell you what drives me wild. Poems and stories written in all lower case letters!!! Or without punctuation...aaaarrrrrgggggggg!!

[hyphenate]

4. Congratulations

regardless: your intentions obviously came across very well to the audience, and perhaps it will be a learning experience for future competitions. Good luck to you on that in the future!

I originally went out to Los Angeles in 1988 to try and get into the entertainment industry. I succeeded at getting in at the administrative level, and was completely unhappy. I found that I was older than most of those who had more of a killer instinct, and also found that scriptwriting was not my forte. I had a screenplay written, however, for the series, "Quantum Leap" because I knew many of the staff and the writers, but it was ultimately rejected. It didn't deter me, however, from wanting to write--I just found that I was better at novels and short stories than at screenwriting.

I always found in school that English was my best subject. Some of the teachers killed my enthusiasm for science, and math was a joke for me. It mainly came to me through osmosis, because frankly, the teachers really weren't a lot of help. I did read a great deal, though. The funny thing is, I also watched TV a lot. Folks still insist that someone who watches a lot of TV come up short academically, but that is a falsehood.

The fact that I've been writing short stories, poetry and yes, novels, since I was 11 makes a difference. I was educated in a school which had a lot of tradition and rules, and my writing might come off a bit snooty at times, or worse, it might come off as someone showing off, which it isn't--I just tend to self-edit while I'm writing, and usually will go for less contractions and more formal writing.

Anyhow, gotta go--have to be at an appointment in 1/2 hour. TTYL

[Orrex]

7. A possibility, for what it's worth

"would give two seconds to a manuscript as badly written as his were."

Parse it this way, perhaps:

"would give two seconds to any particular hypothetical manuscript as badly writen as generally speaking, most of his manuscripts were."

Honestly, I would have phrased it differently myself, but if we're looking at the sentence as written, then I think that this reading is not unreasonable.

[itzamirakul]

9. WHEW! Your particular parsing puts my brain through a

wringer, but in actuality, I kind of felt that the phrase might not be not wrong as originally written, but it just seemed awkward. That's why I asked the first question. Thanks for the input.

[oneighty]

5. Grammer policemens (hahaha)

The English language is astoundingly
Difficult for a poet like me.
And it is not fair it seems to me
That I must cope with this atrocity.

And it continues this here very poetic poem i onct writ.

Some of the most colorful stories I have ever heard were mouthed by a poorly educated in-law of mine. Had they been put into print as uttered they might have lost some color-but they would have been darn good stories.

180

[itzamirakul]

6. You, too, huh? I wonder just how many of us had or have one of

those kinfolk who is poorly spoken but marvelously gifted, especially in the fine art of storytelling?

Your poetry is among the best I ever read! LOL

[oneighty]

8. That poem

goes on and on. It was much longer but I lost some early writings in a fire and am unable to repeat them. Strange.

I stole the tempo.

Poems are written by fools like me.

Said in-law was telling about a lady bring a car into the service station where he worked. She wanted the air in her tires changed. Story went downhill from there. But he changed it as requested! Hahahaha

He was a North Carolina tobacco farmer as a child. Of course his patois added to the charm of his story telling.

180

[itzamirakul]

10. I had two uncles whose greatest joy in life was in outdoing each

other in tall tale telling.

It seems that one uncle grew the biggest watermelon in South Carolina. While he was taking it to town, it rolled off the wagon, hit the ground and broke open. The juice from the watermelon flooded all of down south.

"Yes" shouted the other uncle. "I remember that day well. I had to climb up on one of the seeds to save myself."

They told me that big lie nearly 60 years ago and I still remember it.

It was the dialect that made the story so roflmao darned funny.

Gee, I'm sorry that you lost your poem and other writings in that fire.

[oneighty]

11. My wife

is from South Carolina. I was in the Navy in Charleston. Later in life we were commercial fishermen. All of her family were seafarers.

Her cousin Junior sold watermelons out there on U.S. Route Seventeen South. I have a story 'bout that in my collection-'Voyages of the Vicky Mary'.

180

[itzamirakul]

12. My mom was taken out of South Carolina at age six and she

returned only once, with me, when I was 12. I want to go back and visit the remaining family that I have there, perhaps this year or next. My family lived around Spartenburg. I was born in NYC and grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. Living in NYC now.

Where is your collection - "Voyages of the Vicky Mary" posted? Is it online anywhere?

[oneighty]

13. Voyages

I did a self publication-quite expensive and I have given most of them away. I have a few copies I loan out by mail. I have Voyages in 'words' which can be attached to Email. It is 218 very short stories, very little poetry.

I have another book 'KAZUKO' available on thenecessarylanguage.com 'KAZUKO' is a brief and true love story. 'necessarylanguage' is linked in my DU Journal.

180

[itzamirakul]

14. I saw Necessary Language for the first time yesterday. I found it

through a link here on DU. I bookmarked it so that I could go back a read it more thoroughly. I will make it a point to look for KAZUKO.

I gotta go buy a new AC today. I have one that is nearly 15 years old and it eats up energy like a cartoon character. It's supposed to be 90 today so I've got no choice.

So I will look up KAZUKO when I get back.

BTW: Have you seen the website at www.absolutewrite.com ? That's another link I found at DU, in this forum and it looks good.

[itzamirakul]

15. I just read KAZUKO and I think it is wonderful!

I really enjoyed it so much...Your writing is so good...you held my attention throughout from those early childhood days through... (I will stop this sentence here because I don't want to give the story away.) I hope many others will also go to read KAZUKO.

Find KAZUKO at www.thenecessarylanguage.com It is so enjoyable.

Thanks for turning me on to the story, 180!

[oneighty]

16. Thank you Itzamirakul

I loved Kazuko.My Kazuko story is written with tears. But I guess you might know that.

Thank you for the kind words.

180

[frogmarch]

17. Yes, Kazuko

is wonderful - bittersweet, but wonderful. I recommend it too.

[itzamirakul]

18. Check your inbox for comments that refer to parts of the story

that I especially liked.

Your love for Kazuko has truly stood the test of time.

[JitterbugPerfume]

19. Kazuko

touched my heart the very first time Oneighty sent me a PM (long ago) telling me a short story about her.
The books "The Voyages of The Vicky Mary " and "Kazuko" are both beautiful works.I treasure my copies, just as I treasure the author

[itzamirakul]

20. I think I am beginning to understand why you feel as you do...

big :)

[petgoat]

21. Your friend was right. It is the editor's job.

Most of us learn to do our own editing but remain amateurs at it.
If your friend wishes not to do that, I guess he'll have to hire
it done. If the book has a good concept maybe someone will be
willing to do it for a piece of the action instead of for cash.

As it is, I doubt your friend can expect an agent or a publisher
to read enough of his work to determine whether it's worth editing.