How do you know if you've got something good?

[Droopy]

I've written about 20 short, non-fiction stories that are anywhere from one to three pages each on 8.5" by 11" paper single spaced. I also have a 5000 word essay and two short works of fiction. I started writing just for my own pleasure, but after I'd written a few stories I thought that I might have something more than a hobby.

Over the holidays I printed up all of my stuff and gave it to my family to see what they thought. I got good reviews. I got the best review from one of my cousins who is a much better writer than me. He is a teacher and he said that when he started reading my stories he wanted to break out his red pen and start doing some corrections :). But after he had read a few he noticed that I have a unique style and my own voice which is very strong. That was a great compliment. He told me that my grammar was my weakness, but that stuff can be learned. I gather that developing your own voice in writing is more difficult than learning how to diagram sentences.

I was an English major in college and I ended up dropping out. I do remember one creative writing professor who really liked a short story that I had written for his class. I'm trying to get into contact with him now to see if he'll have a look at my stuff. I think I might be on to something now and my future as a writer does not hinge on what the professor has to say, but it would be a great confidence builder if he thought my stuff was good.

If you are or were an English professor would you be willing to check out some stuff that a former student had written? How do you know when you've got something good? Do you have relatives or friends who will give you an honest opinion? Are you experienced enough that you just know when you've got something good? Do you have a literary agent? Let's hear it.

[GOPFighter]

1. I hardly qualify as an expert, but...

...I'm sure the hardest part is finding someone who is both qualified and honest enough to give you a worthwhile opinion. I have a friend who spent 20 years writing a niche baseball book. He hired a professional editor to critique it and make suggestions for how he could improve his writing style.

When I expressed an interest in writing a friend suggested I should take a writing class at a college or university where you submit written work and have it graded. Has anyone here done this? I just remember some of the classes I took in college...they were hardly worth the money.

[Wetzelbill]

3. I take workshops now

it definitely depends on the professor and even the people in the class. I have had a few great classes that were amazing. I have had a few that were marginal too. I think it is beneficial to give it a shot.

Friends and family are ok, most cannot give you anything remotely good in terms of constructive criticism about technique, grammar and so on, but an average person who enjoys reading can give good insight on what is interesting and what is not. People know what they like to read and what they consider entertaining or enriching, so from that standpoint, just about anybody is qualified to give a beneficial opinion. It is worth taking into consideration because those people will be indicative of your actual audience, so what they have to say is important and useful in certain aspects too.

[Wetzelbill]

2. as far as my short stories and nonfiction, I just know

if I have something good or not. Poetry for me is tougher. I usually do not like my poetry that much, but my last few ones have gotten very good responses from my family and my poetry professor. So much so that he said I should try to get them published. Poetry is hit and miss with me though.

Short stories and nonfiction essays I have an instinct for. I usually know they are good when I can sit them down and come back a month later, read it and still be into the work. Some of my old stuff I look at and cringe. I'll pick apart certain things, word choices, sentence structure, utilization of bland verbs etc. Now, I know my stuff is light years better than it was even a few years ago. For me it is a matter of sitting down and getting the work done, and usually it turns out good. Also, I know when something is good when I can just bust it out and short order. My James Welch essay from that other thread was written mostly in about half an hour. All told I probably did not even work more than two hours on it, and it ended up getting picked up in a magazine, a journal, and will be included in an anthology later this year. It is even required reading in an American Indian Studies PHD seminar at the University of Arizona. I'm an undergrad and one of my AIS professors had to read it and write about it, haha. I just knew it was good right off. Like my last poem only took me about half an hour to write and my professor, who is a pretty distinguished poet, wants me to publish it. Sometimes when you are on you are on. By contrast, I have worked on a few projects for hours on end, tinkering with them off and on for years, and I still don't even feel them all that much. They are ok, but not as solid as my other work.

I do not have a literary agent. Thinking about getting one when I get a few more stories etc, published and begin tangible work on my first collection of essays and stories. Maybe though. I also just might submit my manuscript and take it from there.

I actually do check out lots of writing from people who want advice. People I know and so on.

Grammar is my weak spot too. Tenses in particular. I am so complex with my language sometimes my tenses will switch. A good editor will help you with that. Looking for a former professor is a good idea, they can catch those little things before you submit them etc. Really just write, write and write. Practice and work on technique. That will all come around. A teacher cannot truly teach a writer how to be a writer, they can mainly help them with grammar and technique, give them advice on voice and point them in the right direction. But a writer is a writer. You can't teach natural creativity, it certainly can be honed, but if somebody has it, they have it and if they do not they just do not. You seem to have it, and that you have a unique voice is a particularly effective asset for you. Just keep working and doing your thing. Also feel free to PM me if you ever want advice on some story or essay. I'll let you know if I can get around to some constructive criticism right off, usually I have time to do so, but if I don't I won't jerk you around and leave you waiting. I'd be happy to help you out when I can though.

[Droopy]

4. That's an excellent response, Bill

And I appreciate it. I'm new to this trying to get paid for writing stuff. Or at least trying to get published stuff. I think my style is unorthodox because I am not really trained as a writer. I could see a lot of intellectuals giving my stuff the thumbs down for that reason. But there is a message that I wish to convey that I think a lot of people might like. A lot of working class folks. I'm going to go through all of my stories and edit them and polish them up. There is a small time literary agent not too far from my house. I'm going to see if they might be interested. Look out for a story from me sent in the form of a private message. I might send you one to see what you think. Peace.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Hmm agent... they tend to byte only for long fiction

FYI

[Wetzelbill]

7. yeah, that's why I doubt I'll try to get one

I really don't need one at this point, in all honesty.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Though they are almost a requirement to get

any of the major houses to look at your work.

It is truly a catch 22 if you know what I mean

[Wetzelbill]

10. definitely

not sure if I want a major house to look at my work. Not yet anyway. More or less looking to get some more of my writing printed in journals and a few anthologies, then release a book or two of short stories and/or poems and essays through some University press. Then maybe later on I'd look at getting an agent and going for a major house. I think I have a ways to go before I consider doing that. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Here is your next step

join Critters.org or any other FREE review group

Here is what you look in a review group.

1.- Some form of membership... a small door as it were. This way it is limited in distribution and is not considered published.

2.- Develop a thick skin

3.- Revise

4.- Find markets and submit until sold

And no you don't have just a hobby.

[Droopy]

11. Thanks for the tips

You jogged my memory when you mentioned review groups. My creative writing professor mentioned that there are groups of writers in the area where I live who get together to talk about each other's stuff and how they might improve their work. I might be able to get a hold of them. I will also check out critters.org. Thanks again and I appreciate your assertion that their is more to my work. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Just make sure it is a place with limited distro

if you don't, and lets say you post at Myspace, it is an open board, it is published... or for that matter on THIS board

[petgoat]

9. I picked up on your unique voice, which is why I was reluctant to

offer detailed suggestions for your work.

There are some tricks to tighten and sharpen your writing.

I started with Telling Writing by Ken Macrorie.

Were I your old college teacher, I would be happy to look at
your work. But if I found a lot of issues in the first two
pages, I'd probably stop reading there, and confine my
suggestions to them, and let your reaction to my suggestions
determine whether I wanted to work with you any further.

I'd suggest trying to place some of your stuff in magazines.
Magazine credits can help a lot toward getting an agent for a
longer work.

You are a talented writer, and you have interesting material.


I know if I've got something good if I've taken it through 20 drafts
and I can't find anything I want to change.

[Droopy]

12. Thanks for the compliment and the suggestions

I'm a long haul trucker right now and I don't get home very often. I want to go to the local community college and take some basic courses in English to get my grammar tight, but it will have to wait. I think I'm going to go up to the college that I attended and put up an ad on the bulletin boards seeking a graduate student in English who will edit my work for grammar for a fee. That way when I submit the work to my professor (if he wants to take a look at it) he won't feel like breaking out his red pen like my teacher cousin. :)

[kestrel91316]

14. I think you mostly learn to write welll by reading lots and lots

and lots of well-written stuff. I never got anything at all out of English and literature classes in HS or college, other than how to diagram a sentence. I HATED and LOATHED and DREADED having to write "papers" of any kind.

The first time I did any writing I enjoyed was as a senior in undergrad. My boss (I worked in a campus microbiology lab) was writing/editing a book on some esoteric subject and he asked me to help write it. I did the rough drafts on several chapters, and then he fleshed things out and added detail. I actually had fun doing it (maybe the money helped??).

I write all day long - in my patients' charts. And I write letters, and client education sheets and such. But I now have a little time and energy to write what I want to write about, and it just happens. And then I rewrite and edit ad infinitum until I am happy. Run it past a friend or two, edit some more, and send it off. I have done it twice, been published twice, and am ready to send off a big (2000 word) piece now.

No mentor. No agent (agent?? ME???). Just my own sense of what's good, having read good and bad and mediocre.

[fasttense]

15. Wait and read it later.

I've written stuff I thought was wonderful, three months later, I cringed when I read it. Even some of my published stuff I wish I could do over. The stories were in small markets for very little money, so I'm hoping no one noticed.

That is really the only real test I give to my stories. I just wait until I stop hearing the words in my head.

[petgoat]

16. When the NY Review of Books says so

and even then you don't know. And even they might be wrong. :-(

[Orrex]

17. Here are a few informal ways:

1. When an honest and informed person whose opinion you respect reads it and tells you that it's good

2. When an honest and informed person who doesn't like you reads it and tells you that it's good

3. When someone recognized as a "good" writer plagiarizes your work

4. When you forget about it, read it again, and honestly say "hey, that's pretty good"

5. When you read it and are surprised to find yourself writing stuff of that quality

6. When writers whom you respect, having read your work, thereafter ask your opinion of theirs

7. When you learn that a writer whom you respect cites your work as an influence

and so on.

Clearly, the question of "how good is it" is highly subjective, and "goodness" can be judged by a whole range of criteria. If by "good" you mean "marketable," then the proof comes when your work sells well. If by "good" you mean "elicits a profound emotional response in readers," then the proof comes when readers tell you that this is the case. Unfortunately, there's no handy yardstick by which the objective quality of a work can be absolutely assessed.

That's not to say that all writing is of equal quality, but the question is much more complicated than a list of necessary criteria.

As for your question about the professor, I'd have to say that it depends on the prof! A former teacher was happy to read/critique some of my work, but I had already established a strong rapport with him, and I don't know that another instructor would have been as willing to help.

Does your community have a "writers' group" or something similar? That might be a good place to start.

Best of luck in any case!

[Why Syzygy]

18. Can you take a creative wriring class

at a local jr. college? The class I had included student peer critiques. It was very helpful to receive as well as give critique.

Grammar can be learned, if you have an interest. My dad was an English minor, and he drilled it into us. For example, you wrote, "who is a much better writer than me". (I almost always correct grammar...please forgive). To test this sentence, complete it (mentally with "am"). Would you say "better writer than me am" or "better writer than I am"? Sometimes "I" is appropriate, and sometimes "me". Same for "us" and "we". Just your first tip :D

Gor for it!

[smoogatz]

19. I'm a creative writing professor--

and no, unless you were an outstanding student who had kept in touch, I probably wouldn't take the time to read and comment on your work. It's actually kind of inappropriate to ask, because it puts the professor in a pretty awkward position. I mean, if your mechanic once said he liked your car, would you call him up years later and ask him to adjust the timing for free?