Writers, Writing Group mods, a question about a private forum

[HamdenRice]

I am in the process of writing a collection of short stories and would like to share parts with this group. The problem is that once you post a story on an online public forum like this, it has been "published" and many publications won't accept it.

On the other hand, you can trade stories on private forums. The difference is somewhat symbolic, iirc, and involves things like password protection and a limited number of defined members.

Would it be possible to have a subforum that was somehow symbolically "private" so we could share material we actually had some hope of publishing?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. You could email people the stories, right?

That would get you around the notion of "publication."

But, because I'm always curious when I learn about situations such as yours, can you tell me why you would want the opinions of relative strangers? Not to diminish the closeness you have, I would guess, with others who post here, but I always wonder why people who are involved in the writing process are interested in what others think.

For me, it's always been only what I think, and nothing I write ever sees daylight until I send it to my agent.

Maybe I'm missing something?

Thank you for giving me a hand here. And think about the email option, why don't you? Keeps you safe.

[Orrex]

3. RE: the opinions of relative strangers

I think that opinions shared in this manner are similar to writing courses that many writers and would-be-writers have taken. While in college, I was fortunate enough to participate in several excellent crit courses, and my writing benefited enormously.

In some cases, relative anonymity also makes it easier to be honest and objective without feeling the need to sugar-coat one's critique, as one might be tempted to do when reviewing a close friend's writing.

Kudos to you to keeping your writing between you and your agent--but for those of us who don't (yet) have agents, a crit circle can be enormously helpful IMO.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

4. Still,

you're asking strangers - about whom you know nothing, about them, their taste in literature - to judge your work. That's the part that I find hard to understand.

But, having never taken a writing course, I am unversed in these matters. In a class, though, I can appreciate the proximity giving each student at least an idea of who's saying what, and then being able to decide exactly how much credence to give it.

Yes, I have a great agent whose advice even I occasionally ignore. Same for my editor/publisher, but to a lesser extent. I know how lucky I am. Trust like that is valuable beyond gold.

However it works out for you, let me know. I'd be glad to help, if you'd like. And good luck to you.

[Orrex]

5. Ah! I see!

Your concern is certainly valid, because a writer seeking crit might get all kinds of anonymous crazies from all over the internets, offering god-knows-what kinds of weirdo opinions.

In a faceless forum like this, I suppose that anonymous critiques can be helpful if they make you rethink or re-examine parts of your work, though you're certainly right that it would be risky to make major revisions based solely on the "kindness" of strangers. When I get feedback in this kind of forum, I usually reflect upon it and decide whether I agree with the expressed view. At the very least, it forces me to take another close look at what I've written, and (for me, at least) that's always helpful.

[HamdenRice]

6. I've learned that there is one thing that it is impossible for any writer to do

And I don't mean difficult, but literally impossible. It is impossible for a writer to read his or her own work the way his eventual reader will read it. That's because the writer already has the story in his head before he writes it. If you write multiple drafts, then when you read your latest draft, you've already read your own earlier drafts, which makes it impossible to read your third draft as though you are reading it for the first time.

That's why having someone else read it is so important for me. It gives me a sense of how the anonymous reader I hope eventually to reach will read it. I try to stay in workshops constantly while I'm trying to finish my collection of short stories. I am always amazed at how helpful they are. Not all readers in the workshops are useful, but there are always two or three who are remarkably perceptive. Did this turn of the plot surprise or was it too telegraphed ahead of time? Was there a point of view violation? If there was a deliberate point of view violation, did it work or was it confusing? Did these sentence structures create the mood I was trying to create? Was this characterization compelling? Is this minor character distracting? You get the idea.

Some of the people here, I have participated on various boards for quite some time, and one I have met twice in RL during NY DU meetups, so I wouldn't call them strangers. On the other hand, knowing what strangers think of what I write is exactly the point. Some day I hope to be read by a lot of strangers, and it would be very good to know what such readers think.

[Orrex]

2. I'm not sure that "symbolically" private is private enough, though

If it's still viewable by the anonymous public, then it might qualify as "first publication" even if the intent is solely to share your story for critique. Of course, there aren't really any ironclad rules on this as yet, though Writer's Digest ran an article on the topic of online publishing a few months back. I'll see if I can find it on their website.

However, a while ago another DU'er and I (who will remain nameless unless he/she chooses to enter this discussion!) briefly discussed various possibilities in support of exactly this kind of story trading. I won't speak for that person or that person's suggestions, but one that occurred to me still seems a valid option.

It's possible, using Hyperboards or some other forum-host, to create "members only" groups, so that the posts within that group can't be read except by members of the forum. There wouldn't need to be any fee or "test" for membership, but the simple act of isolating the readership to the forum's members will (I believe) allow the work to remain "unpublished" even though it's posted online.

Setting up such a forum is tremendously simple. If anyone is interested in pursuing a writer's forum like that, let me know, and I can have something basic set up in a day or so.

Incidentally, several formal writing outlets feature similar forums (fora?) already. Jim Baen's Universe is one of them, and there are many others. They all require membership activation before the user can access the crit groups.

[orleans]

7. i know this thread is a month old, but...i'm responding anyway.

what if you just send your story around through pms?

[HamdenRice]

8. Can you attach it like email attachments? Or copy/paste the whole thing? nt

[Orrex]

9. I've swapped a few stories with DUers that way. It works, but it takes some tweaking

Any use of boldface, italics, or underlining would have to be recoded, since cut-and-paste won't carry them into the PM. Also, paragraph indentations don't translate into the PM format, so you have to double space between paragraphs.

It's not an ideal format for sharing, but it's better than nothing by a long shot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. there is something else that can work

a yahoo group...

:-)

It would talke one of us to create it and have rules.

Of course I can also recommend Critique Circle... they do that already and it works

[Orrex]

11. That's a good suggestion

I think that you and I onced pondered this same topic! I think that a Yahoo Group would work well, though it leaves the question of how to admit members and how to assess the value of their critiques. Not saying that mine is any better than anyone else's, but some sort of standard would likely be helpful.

Alternatively, the interested parties could establish a discussion forum at Hyperboards or the like. That would work much like a Yahoo Group and would suffer the same problems of admission, but at least it's another option...

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Well I removed the board from deist games

due to the spyders... and if I can get the new security to work another possibility is to bring is back on, and have HIDDEN boards for critiques

Yahoo to me seems the best option short of joining existing groups... and critique circle has genre specific critiques as well

[wryter2000]

13. I'd be reluctant to post your work here, anyway

Granted, only donors can get into this group, but I'd still worry about showing my work to a bunch of anonymous strangers. I don't mean the people who regularly contribute here but someone else who might be wandering through. I have a friend who's big in romance now. She used to post freebies on her website, and someone ripped them off and claimed they were his own. She went through all kinds of grief trying to get him to stop.

It would be very easy to set up a yahoo group. You could call it DUWritersGroup. That way, you'd know who was reading your material.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. I had a company do that to me

and there was no recourse... but I do get the point

Sad, ain't it?