Where Did You Learn To Write Well?

[NashVegas]

A few years ago, one of our interns at work stumped me with that one. I'd always been a natural writer, it was something I just *did,* starting with my first short story at age nine, and countless journals and poems in the years after.

Is it possible to teach someone with no natural aptitude for writing, to write well?

[HamdenRice]

1. There are two meanings of "writing well"

I think, against my better judgment sometimes, that writing well is an almost innate talent. Some people will never write well in this sense. They may be coached, like a gorilla that is taught to learn sign language, to write decent corporate memos. But they will never be able to create what one of my instructors called, "language beauty."

That said, even people with the innate talent may never learn the much harder task of shaping a mass of sentences into a story, a screen play, a convincing nonfiction argument, a novel. This second aspect is much more workmanlike, and involves learning rules that are as severe and constraining as those that govern carpentry.

I learned the second part of good writing in college. I was lucky enough to attend a university that had as a requirement, something called "tutorial." As soon as you chose a major, you received a tutor, a graduate student who slaved over your incoherent essays like a newspaper editor and taught the basics of "sonata" form for historical papers (incidentally: introduction, three arguments, conclusion).

[NashVegas]

2. I Guess

Language beauty - or at least agility - was primarily what I was getting at.

[Orrex]

5. That's a great answer

You hit on the two main components of what would have been my answer.

In my case, English as a subject always came very easily to me in school. I could breeze by with minimal effort even as my classmates were struggling with vocab lists (in middle school) or research papers (in high school). I could start a research paper the day before they were due and still get better grades than my friends who'd been slaving at them for weeks.

I don't make that boast with pride, because it required little or no effort, so there's little or nothing that I can really claim to have accomplished in doing it.

The part in which I do take considerable pride came later, in college. There, I really dug in and applied myself to the process of writing, learning the skills of effective structure (etc.) so that I could actually harness whatever ability I had naturally, rather than simply sitting back and letting it happen.

That's an over-statement, of course; even while coasting, I had to be aware of what I was writing so that I didn't turn in five pages of shit, but when I recently found a paper from high school, I was almost embarrassed to have been praised for it at the time. It was horrid.

I can't say that I'm a "good" writer even now, but I believe that I can claim more responsibility for my output than I could have claimed as of my early college years.

[valerief]

36. And then there's learning how to write "well" as in "wishing well". nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. I haven't, that's why I edit, and edit, and edit

but then again, writing is rewriting

In fact, if you read some of the greats and their comments on writing... they don't write well... they edit well

[Kind of Blue]

4. Good point. Thank you.

:hi: I lurk in this group trying to get my language beauty up and had to jump in.
I'm listening to Stephen King's memoir On Writing, in which I just heard him say, "To write is human, to edit is divine."

[Orrex]

6. 'Is it possible to teach someone with no natural aptitude for writing, to write well?'

I think so.

One failing is universal in just about everything I've been asked to edit/critique of other people's writing. The writers simply don't seem to be conscious of what they're putting on the page, but such consciousness is a skill that can readily be learned, because mostly it entails a close reading of the text (one's own or anyone else's).

Lacking that consciousness, you might find yourself repeating the same conspicuous word six or seven times in a short paragraph. It's not necessarily a fatal error, but it's sloppy, and some writer's simply don't seem to notice it in their own work.

I'm not excusing myself from that failure, either; even in my most recent writings I find foolish repetitions or stupidly awkward phrasings or unintentionally humorous word choices, and these more than anything else drive me to edit and edit and edit again.

For instance, something like the following line appears in a current piece I'm writing:

The scent of lilacs rose from the pages of the book.

I wrote that last Tuesday, and during edits I've reread it dozens of times. Yet only last night did it occur to me that lilacs/rose is an unintentional pairing of two flowers. Sure, it's not the end of the world, and it's easily fixed, but the fact that I didn't realize it proves that anyone can overlook an obvious goof in his own writing.

But, as I mentioned, it's a skill that can be learned. It simply takes practice and a willingness to read as carefully as you can.

[EFerrari]

8. I have this theory that people who really master a craft

like writing or sax playing or naked people drawing do it because it feels good to repeat an experience. So, you do it a LOT. The moralistically minded call that "practicing" and it may make some people feel virtuous to frame it that way. In reality, it's simply satisfying a funny urge some people have to repeat, over and over, the experience of making something or maybe, of finding something -- the right word, the right phrase, the right line.

Wouldn't it be funny if so called "creative" types are really that group of people who most love repetition? :P

[NashVegas]

10. You Mean It Was Always An Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder?

Interesting idea, but you don't repeat the same paragraph again and again, now, do you?

[EFerrari]

19. Not exactly. It's more that we tend to repeat things that feel good.

Like eating pizza or taking showers when we're sore or cracking jokes if they make our friends laugh.

Repetition in of itself is not pathology. It's learning, most of the time. :)

[Chan790]

35. See, I read that and caught it immediately.

However, I assumed it was an intentional piece of wordplay.

[EFerrari]

7. Sitting at a table.

:)

[valerief]

9. I can't remember where I learned to write well but I vividly remember where

I learned to write the.

[NashVegas]

11. Ain't Nothing Like a Literal Mind

Smart-ass

:evilgrin:

[EFerrari]

17. LOL! It's really true, though. Just sitting there and doing it.

Over and over and over. I always thought it would be much more sexy than that!

lol

:hi:

[NashVegas]

12. Now, Here's the Reason I Started This Thread

A new national survey of high school writing instruction finds it lacking, with 50 percent of teachers reporting they are not prepared to teach students how to write well and rarely assign complex writing tasks.

The study by Steve Graham, professor and Currey Ingram Chair of Special Education, was published this spring in the Journal of Educational Psychology.

“The lack of writing and writing instruction was more pronounced in social studies and science, but even language arts teachers provided little writing instruction for their students,” Graham said. “Another disturbing finding was the sizable number of teachers who made few or no adaptations in their teaching efforts to assist weaker writers.”

According to the results, teachers rarely ask high school students to complete assignments that involve writing more than a single paragraph, and most common writing assignments involve little to no analysis or interpretation. Some teachers reported using a variety of effective writing practices, but indicated that the use was infrequent, removing their effectiveness.

http://sitemason.vanderbilt.edu/news/releases/2009/04/22/vanderbilt-survey-half-of-high-school-teachers-unprepared-to-teach-writing.78295

My first reaction to this was to try to remember what kind of writing assignments I was given in HS. Not all, but most of the more intensive ones were given in electives: mythology, film criticism, rhetoric & research, ie, classes that were designed for students who wanted deeper studies or college prep.

Aside from the idea that *maybe* HS English teachers aren't given serious enough assignments (NCLB, anyone?), to me this simply looks like just one more attempt to shift blame, or add a burden, to HS teachers for something that really isn't their province in the first place.

We've got several thousand self-promoting marketing "experts" wandering around Web 2.0 who spent so much time in IT and Electronic Communications classes, and not enough in Humanities, that they can't tell the difference between taking something "for granted," and taking something "for granite."

[Orrex]

13. Sadly, not a new phenomenon. I graduated from high school in 89.

I don't recall ever receiving intensive writing instruction. We'd get writing assignments, of course, but these were term papers, themes, and the like. We'd be told whether this or that was bad about them, but invariably those critiques would be about spelling, subject/verb agreement, punctuation, and run-on sentences. Certainly I never received any instruction in creative writing. Even my so-called "Advanced Placement" English course during senior year devoted entirely to analytical writing with no real guidance in structure or technique.

I don't particularly fault my school for lacking a better writing curriculum, though it would have been nice to have access to such instruction even in elective courses.

And, of course, we had no Humanities courses of any kind.

[NashVegas]

14. That's Kind of My Point, Though

I didn't expect to see anyone say they learned to write well in HS, or even in college.

I thought NB's "edit, edit, edit," was the closest to what it was that I learned in HS (in college it became more about revision).

A lot of Personal Branding-type flacks find me and add me to their Twitter list, and it's appalling to see how many of them don't see poor spelling, grammar, and usage as something that detracts from their brand. It made me wonder if the study I linked to was connected to it, albeit very indirectly.

[Orrex]

15. As a matter of fact, I did learn to write well in college

At least to the extent that I write well at all! College, specifically the first semester of my junior year, was my first exposure to real guidance in the craft and process of writing. I'd had courses in composition before that, naturally, but these dealt mostly with rhetoric rather than style.

There is no substitute for guidance by a skilled, experienced writer coupled with intensive peer critique. It's a hammer-and-anvil process that really made aware of my own strengths and weaknesses.

[sybylla]

16. I had a great experience with a high school English teacher

I graduated in 1981 and had this teacher in various English classes - both elective and required - and he was fabulous at teaching structure, grammar, the beauty of words and variety of sentence structure and all the pitfalls that come with them. He's the teacher who inspired me to be a writer. He was full of patience, was willing to talk about my work and help me see where my problems were. But he was a rare teacher who cared deeply and put in the extra time to work with kids like me. Out of 12 years and all the teachers I had in a large school district - heck, even including my college professors, he was really the only one who showed a genuine passion for teaching writing that translated into doing it well.

I think the problem is that good writing is as hard to teach as it is to do. And so few college majors even bother with a requirement for a writing class. Heck, I was an English major and I wrote circles around the journalism students in my Communications classes (PR, Media Aesthetics, Public Speaking).

What the heck does that tell you?

[EFerrari]

18. Even before kids are asked to write anything, there is or could be the idea

that some people write? My grandmother was a writer. I didn't even know that was unusual until second or third grade. It's just what she did.

I wonder how many kids know that writing is something you can do -- like some people play baseball or plant crops or sell things in stores.

[valerief]

27. Writing skills can lead to critical thinking and that's dangerous for a corporatocracy.nt

[NJCher]

38. Partial reason

A partial reason for that is that it is difficult to evaluate writing--not to mention that it's painful to read bad writing.

Teachers opt out of it because it's so much work.

There was a time when writing teachers were paid double what other teachers made: that's because it was believed to be so much work! Unfortunately the schools quit doing this.

There are "writing across the curriculum" programs that help. Also, I know a number of very dedicated teachers who make students write--because they know it's the right thing to do.


Cher

[Ozymanithrax]

20. Three steps to writing well

(1) Read voraciously. Don't just read what you like, but everything. And read the classics. They are classics because of their quality, though many would no longer be published today because of different tastes in wring.

(2) Write daily. Set a daily goal, say a thousand words, and write to that goal. If you want to write more, go for it, but hit your goal. I don't mean just to write on your book, short story, poetry, etc. If you need a grocery list, write it out and make it shine. Write poetry because there is nothing like disciplined poetry to teach you how to create images and to cut the fat out of your words.

(3) Edit. Be vicious. Words are not your children. They are the sacrificial lambs you must slaughter to get it right.

[NashVegas]

21. You Should Teach High School

At least, that's what the author of the study I quoted might say.

[Ozymanithrax]

22. Teaching High school is a thankless job...

Stretched between ignorance and glandular explosions.

Actually, I am trying, though not to be a better reader, but to put more food on my family.

[valerief]

26. You should read some Shakespeares this summer.

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

24. When I first started writing LTTE, it was a game to see how many words I could cut

out of my draft and still have the thing make sense. But poetry is my form. Maybe people who mostly work in other forms wouldn't feel the same way.

[BamaGirl]

25. I agree with you on 1 and 3

And when newbies ask, I do suggest 2, but most of the pubbed writers I know (especially in my fiction genre), don't write every day. I write a lot Aug-Nov and a lot Feb-May. The rest of the time, I've learned to save for revising and editing. One, I need to write around my kids. June, July, Dec, and Jan that ain't possible. And two, burn out is a very real thing. I did that bad last year. 300k words in 3 months. I couldn't string together a coherent sentence til Feb lol! So I would add a 2b to your list, pace yourself! :)

[kestrel91316]

23. I'm not so sure I DO write well. A couple of literary journal editors

apparently don't think so.........

I certainly never learned to write anything meaningful and coherent in any formal setting. My pathetic "papers" in high school and college rather closely resembled my second grade book reports. For decades I suffered from the idea that I COULD NOT THINK OF ANYTHING TO SAY, so what I did say always came out stilted and contrived.

I think posting endless blather for years on DU has done more to loosen my tongue than anything else. That, and reading every interesting book I've ever come across (and many not so interesting).

[NJCher]

39. forum writing

I think posting endless blather for years on DU has done more to loosen my tongue than anything else.

Interesting, and I'm happy to hear it because I tell my students that forum writing is one of the best ways to practice. The subject line is a thesis statement and everything in the post has to be written to support it.

As far as finding something to write about, though, my students often say they have that problem. Not having ever had that problem, I'm not sure my advice is any good, but I tell them that as they get into their writing, the points evolve.



Cher

[kentauros]

28. Self-taught.

Maybe it is innate, maybe not. I know that every time I changed degrees in college (geology to computer graphic software design to drafting technology to graphic arts) I had to re-take the 5-paragraph-theme English class, so I guess some of it eventually soaked in ;) I was always a good speller and did well with those sentence-structure analyzing tests, whatever that part of English is called. I can't say I ever truly understood some of the finer details of grammar, but some of them may not be all that necessary unless you're trying to write literature versus just "a good read".

So, I do make mistakes and try to correct them if I know what is wrong to begin with. The betareader can catch the rest, if they are also able to catch those mistakes. Otherwise, I leave it all to an editor (if I ever get to that part in the whole process...) ;)

[Neoma]

29. Still learning, at least with grammar.

*sulks*

[Tangerine LaBamba]

30. In the library,

at home. Wherever the books were..........

[JTG of the PRB]

31. I'm not convinced I'm a good writer, but other people tell me I'm very good.

I always feel like my vocabulary is too limited, that I'm too repetitive. Apparently, that's not the case, so I have no idea how I became good at writing. :shrug:

[kentauros]

32. I completely understand what you mean!

But, I see this in every art. The good artists are usually quite critical of their own work, no matter how much people say it's good and to just leave it alone ;)

Here's a cool game for increasing your vocabulary and helping the hungry get FreeRice. It's fun, though I do get bored after a while. However, I do learn from it :)

[ejpoeta]

34. i have always found that i was my own worst critic.... stuff i thought was crap

others thought was great. it's probably more just your being critical of yourself.

[ChicagoSuz219]

37. Limited vocabulary? That's why God invented Thesauruses...

If you're a writer, OWN IT! :-)

[EFerrari]

42. No, God invented the thesaurus to punish English IA teachers.

:)

[ejpoeta]

33. I don't know. I just always remember writing stories and things.

And i read.... a lot. I was always reading and writing. In school we learned to write different things.... we learned about punctuation and paragraphs. I remember writing stories for assignments.... papers.... all kinds of things. and while I think that one can have a natural aptitude for writing, and an understanding of it like someone does with music or painting.... you do need to learn and then can grow your own style. And I do think people can learn to write well. It will probably never be that innate unconscious way, but they can learn to do it well.

[Ozymanithrax]

40. The mechanics, the grammar can be taught.

People can learn how to write a clear, correct sentence.

Writing well takes a bit more.

[Haole Girl]

41. The school of hard knocks

:rofl:

To answer the question, I didn't. Not really.

I just do the best I can

with the opportunities I had

[jotsy]

43. Still seeking proof that's the case.