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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:00 AM
Original message
Regarding legalizing herb
There are ways to allow for using marijuana without dragging commercial interests, law enforcement, the courts, and the prison system into it.

Allow for growth of 3 plants.
No sales allowed(price would drop down to weed levels anyway).
No commercial production allowed. This will keep the concerns of "being sold at 7-11" away. Haven't we learned our lessons with alcohol and tobacco commercialization?
Barter or trade only.
No driving under the influence. Which will require development of a "real-time" test.
18 or 21 and over.
Transporting of 1 ounce per vehicle allowed in locked area such as a trunk.

Anymore ideas?
Any political courage out there?

As far as the government not getting a tax revenue well that would be more than made up with the revitalization of our economy with industrial hemp.
http://www.naihc.org/




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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. Is industrial hemp the same as marijuana?
From what I've read it is, but I guess I don't understand the differences? Is it less potent or is it a different animal altogether?

The 3 plant idea is interesting, but I wonder if it doesn't open a whole new level of infringements on civil protections.

Sure, Mr. Smith can have three plants, judge, but we have it on good word that he has9 - can we get the warrant? Ok boys, we got the warrant, lets keep this scum off the street - while you're in the house drop this little baggie of white powder - Jones here will "discover" it.
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Good points
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Pics
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. No, industrial hemp is different.
Industrial hemp has very low or no THC, and will actually give anyone foolish enough to smoke it a massive headache.

The hemp labelled "marijuana" consists of strains which have been selected and cultivated for potency and consumability, whereas "industrial" hemp has been cultivated to give maximum yield of plant fibres (rather than buds and resin).
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parkening Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. I don't have a huge problem with
Edited on Wed Dec-08-04 10:15 AM by parkening
legalizing some of the more 'natural' drugs. But there are big issues to resolve, like, has my airline pilot been using. It's a problem already with drunk pilots. There are long term, cumulative affects to lots of these drugs which could disqualify certain people from jobs where concentration, for instance, is of paramount importance (ATC, police work, etc).

Industrial hemp is another issue that is rife for corruption, in my opinion. There are other plants that are just as useful but without the temptation to be corrupt. Flax, for instance.
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Nope
Flax is not as useful or prolific.

"Industrial hemp is another issue that is rife for corruption"
Please expand on your thoughts here.

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parkening Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I think that flax is as useful
check out this link... www.flaxcouncil.ca/indproin.htm for some of the uses.

It's yield can be compared favorably with hemp per acre.

There's always the temptation to go black market whenever there is a product that is not universally legal.

<kidding> And if the farmers are 'sampling' the product too much, nobody'll have the gumption to harvest the crop. Not the case with flax </kidding>
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thanks for the link I'll check it out...also,
Actually Industrial Hemp ruins marijuana grown for the flower tops. It cross polenates and destroys good sensimilla bud.

http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/2735.html

Also, the THC content of hemp very very weak:

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/opp551?opendocument#2

Description
Fibre hemp is an annual herbaceous plant which flourishes in temperate regions. All cultivars tested in Alberta have been low-THC (delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol) cultivars. Canada has adopted the 0.3% THC standard established by the European Union as the concentration which separates non-psychoactive strains suitable for legal fibre production from those which are illegally grown for their properties of intoxication. The 0.3% THC designation is very conservative. Most narcotic strains range from 3-5% THC, with cleaned, high potency material reaching as high as 15% THC. It is postulated that THC was useful to the plant by providing protection from UV-B exposure. The cannabinoid complex (which includes THC) of compounds is secreted by epidermal resin glands which are most numerous on and around the reproductive structures. This makes sense, since the reproductive structures require the highest level of protection. Low-THC varieties secrete resin, but it is composed of non-intoxicating substances.
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parkening Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Like I said
Edited on Wed Dec-08-04 11:17 AM by parkening
I don't really have strong feelings about industrial hemp. Just that other crops are similarly useful without the stigma/corruption potential.

I can see some wise-acre sticking in some 'non-industrial hemp' into the field here and there.

On edit: from reading your description above, it sounds like the low THC content is by choice of the grower. They could use higher THC content plants if they wanted but choose not to.
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Ummm...
"I can see some wise-acre sticking in some 'non-industrial hemp' into the field here and there."

If they did then that would ruin his 'non-industrial hemp' plant very fast through pollination.
With all due respect and I am not trying to be condescending here but if you read up a bit more about hemp then these issues will get clearer for you.

:thumbsup:
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parkening Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Help me out here
I freely admit to not being an expert on hemp/mj. But I do have a significant farming background.

Won't the cross-pollination only ruin subsequent generations of the plant? The original plants will still have high THC content.

The cross-pollination will only be a problem if the grower uses seed from his own crop for the next season. In my experience, farmers do not generally use seed from their own crops but buy it from the Peasco seed catalog. So he puts in industrial seed with a little 'non-industrial' on the side.

Is there something I'm missing?
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. When growing...
for medicinal or recreational use the objective is allow the female flower to 'add-on' to itself by NOT receiving pollen from a male plant. The flower is where the THC is.
As soon as the female 'bud' is pollinated it stops flowering and loses potency by turning flower/THC production into a seed production.
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parkening Donating Member (449 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. You da man, shred!
So it could be done but it'd take some funky separation techniques.

"That netting? Uh...we're keeping the birds off, yeah, that's the ticket!"

You've given me an education this morning SHRED. Thanks.
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. No prob
Just 'Google' http://www.google.com/ around a bit with any keywords.
Lots of great info out there.
I got turned on, to how industrial hemp could save our country's(world's) environment and economy, back in 1991.
This is the 'bible' on it's history and potential use:
http://jackherer.com/chapters.html
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. how big are we allowed to let the plants grow?
I'm thinking there are some varietals that are more like trees than plants, and I know that only because my dogs broke into the garden, ate the lower branches and wandered around stoned with munchies for a week. It was a bad experiment. The banana peppers and cucumbers did much better.
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. My ideas are a starting point
Details and modifications are welcomed.
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ridgerunner Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
16. SHRED
Thisidea came to me while I was standing around a private lake thinking about all the people that would enjoy freedom. It's actually part of a paper I wrote for drug colliquom (sp) course. And I read the Emperor in 93 and have been a devoted hempster since. It's hard not to be after reading it ain't it?

---------------------------

Our government spends nearly $30 billion a year on cannabis eradication programs. This is a lot of money that could be spent in much better ways. The first step that I would take in ending cannabis prohibition would be to set up “stoner camps”. This would be an experiment to scientifically study the effects that marijuana has in a controlled setting. The government would first have to declare that cannabis was legal, of course and then the ball would get rolling. These camps would be compromised of 250 memberships, with each membership allowing for family members. The government would give each camp $50,000 to purchase land and improve it as they saw fit. Members would pay a set amount of dues that would be used to further improve the land and buildings. People would be given a questionnaire to fill out, so people with similar interests could be grouped together. This means that some people might want to build a camp that has a lake, some might want hiking trails, some might want a bowling alley, etc.


The purpose of these camps would be to provide cannabis users a place to grow and use cannabis. Each camp would be responsible for growing and distributing their own cannabis according to the by-laws that they draw up. The camps would be places were people could congregate outside their homes, away from people who don’t want to be around cannabis users. Members would not purchase cannabis; rather their dues would be sufficient. Members would be able to grow their cannabis either outside, indoors, or in greenhouses. They would be able to use cannabis at these camps and take home for personal use whatever their allotment may be. Members would be allowed to visit other camps to trade cannabis, and partake of activities that their camp doesn’t have.


When these camps are in place, they will be free from any government interference as long as they are abiding by one simple rule; no distribution to anyone who is not a member of a legitimate camp. If this rule is broken however, only the offenders will be punished for engaging in the black market, not the entire camp. These camps will allow cannabis users a place to enjoy their herb (and if they want, mushrooms) while satisfying the non-using publics desire to not be around cannabis users. These camps can be used for a variety of purposes; restaurants, golf courses, lakes, pool halls, campsites, etc. They should be set up in a communal fashion so that members would have responsibility for their upkeep.


Membership in these camps would be given to all Americans 18 and over. Parents would have the final say whether or not their minor children were allowed to partake of cannabis. Minors would be educated to the fact that they would be allowed to join a camp on their 18th birthday with one stipulation. If minors were found to be in possession of cannabis before their 18th birthday, they would not be allowed to join for one year for every offense (unless of course they are at home or at a camp and have their parents’ permission). The “forbidden fruit” syndrome would lose its appeal once minors were aware that with a little patience, they could have legal access to cannabis.


These camps would destroy the black market. The woods and forests would no longer belong to marijuana farmers. Helicopters would no longer hover over citizens as they went about their business. Corruption among law enforcement and politicians would falter with no drug barons to protect. Hemp could be grown to give consumers an alternative to petro-chemicals. Fewer prisons would have to be built. Courts would be less clogged. Law enforcement could focus on crimes with victims. Civil liberties would return. Innocent people would not be murdered. Gangs would lose income. Drug dealers wouldn’t target minors. Tax dollars could either be refunded or spent on something crazy like national health care. The police state would be averted.
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ridgerunner Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. The topic of the paper
we had to write was "What would you do if you were in charge of the drug war".

------------------------------------------

First off, we must consider that if I ever came into power to do something about the drug war one of the following things must happen;

1. Either the Green Party or a coalition of Independents has come to power.

2. The American populace has rebelled against their overlords.

3. An asteroid has stuck the planet and I’m the only person left.

4. I find a magic lamp with a genie in it.

5. Aliens herd out the sheep for their food processing plants.

6. God, Allah, Buddha, or whoever takes away all his close-minded followers.

7. People actually use their brains instead of listening to government propaganda.

8. Abe Lincoln is reincarnated and frees the stoners.

9. I’m deported to a deserted island where I make myself emperor.

10. This is all a dream and I finally wake up.
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SHRED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. HA HA
Too funny...

:toast:
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-04 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. Why not follow Netherlands model?
After a temporary spike, marijuana use is less than that of the U.S. and hard drug use is down. My husband, who visited Amsterdam assures me that that high quality product in many different varieties is available. It's sale and use has not down graded quality. Why not coffee shops?
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Muzzle Tough Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-04 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
20. It should be legal.
It should be legal to grow, sell, buy, and smoke medical and recreational marijuana. Recreational marijuana should be banned for people under 18. Medical marijuana should be allowed for minors only with a doctor's approval, but automatic approval should be required for minors with cancer, AIDS, etc.

Persoanlly, I have never smoked it. But I cannot for the life of me comprehend why anyone should be put in jail for doing so.

The current Supreme Court case against medical marijuana is using the exact same argument that occurred in a 1942 case regarding wheat.

In the 1942 case, a farmer was growing wheat for his own consumption, but the court ruled that this could be outlawed under the commerce clause, because by growing his own wheat, he wasn't buying wheat from other farmers, so that affected interstate commerce.

So the current case agasint medical marijuana is quoting the 1942 case, arguing that if a person grows his own medical marijuana, then he isn't buying drugs from the big pharmaceutical companies, so that affects interstate commerce.

Personally, I think the 1942 ruling is bogus, and so is the current argument. However, I am no legal scholar. I do know that the Founding Fahters grew their own wheat and their own hemp, though, and I'm sure they would be outraged at the 1942 ruling on wheat as well as the current effort to ban medical marijuana.

Here are some excerpts from two columns from some civil libertarians explaining how the current Supreme Court argument against medical marijuana is using the 1942 wheat ruling as justification. If you wish to read the articles in full you can click on the links. I see other people here post articles with "snip snip" for the fair use clause, instead of posting the whole article. So OK, here goes!

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/watkins4.html

Yesterday, the Supreme Court heard arguments in the case of Ashcroft v. Raich (No. 03-1454). The issues in Raich touch on the fundamental concerns of federalism and individual liberty. The Court must decide whether the Constitution’s Commerce Clause permits Congress, via the federal Controlled Substances Act, to prohibit the medicinal use of cannabis.

The case will also affect the quality of life and longevity of two seriously ill California women. Angel Raich suffers from paralysis, an inoperable brain tumor, seizures, chronic pain, life-threatening weight loss, and many other ailments. Diane Monson is afflicted with chronic back pain and muscle spasms caused by a degenerative disease of the spine. Their physicians concluded that the ladies’ pain could not be relieved with ordinary medication. Pursuant to California’s Compassionate Use Act, the physicians prescribed marijuana. Under the Compassionate Use Act, a patient or his primary caregiver may possess or cultivate cannabis solely for personal medical purposes of the patient as recommended by a physician.

Both women have experienced beneficial results from the cannabis. Raich, for example, was once confined to a wheelchair and is now able to ambulate. Without the use of cannabis, her condition will most certainly retrograde.

<snip snip>

In 1942, the Court considered the constitutionality of FDR’s Agricultural Adjustment Act. In Wickard v. Filburn, the Court was presented with the question of whether Congress could regulate a farmer’s growing of wheat intended solely for consumption on his farm. A local activity, lectured the Court, can "be reached by Congress if it exerts a substantial economic effect on interstate commerce." Although the 11.9 acres of wheat in question did not seem to affect interstate commerce, the Court reasoned that the farmer’s wheat, "taken together with that of many others similarly situated, is far from trivial." Because the growing of wheat for home consumption by hundreds or thousands of farmers could affect the demand and price of wheat, the acts of a solitary bucolic soul fall under Congress’ power to regulate commerce.

Not surprisingly, the government’s brief in Raich relies heavily on Wickard. According to the Solicitor General, "ome-grown marijuana displaces drugs sold in both the open drug market and the black drug market regulated by ." From this the government concludes that "Congress has the power to regulate the interstate market in marijuana as well as activity that substantially affects that market, regardless of the purported use of the drug." Under the government’s reasoning, Congress could regulate procreation because a rise in the population could affect the interstate market and price of cannabis. If the government’s argument prevails, then Congress will have an unrestrained police power to regulate all facets of American life. The remainder of Congress’ enumerated powers in Article I, Section Eight of the Constitution will be rendered superfluous.

<snip snip>

.....

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby121004.asp

Ashcroft v. Raich, the Supreme Court's medical marijuana case, isn't really about medical marijuana. It's about power — the power of Congress to exert control, and the power of the Constitution to rein Congress in.

The named plaintiff in this case is Angel McClary Raich, a California mother of two afflicted with an awful array of diseases, including tumors in her brain and uterus, asthma, severe weight loss, and endometriosis. To ease her symptoms, doctors put her on dozens of standard medications. When none of them helped, they prescribed marijuana. That did help — so much so that Raich, who had been confined to a wheelchair, was again able to walk.

<snip snip>

The Supreme Court's most expansive reading of the Commerce Clause came in Wickard v. Filburn, a unanimous 1942 decision about a farmer who grew more wheat on his farm than was allowed under federal law. Roscoe Filburn argued that his excess wheat was none of Washington's business, since it all remained on his farm — some of it he ground into flour, for his family, some he fed to his livestock, and some he planted the following year. None of it entered interstate commerce, so what right did Congress have to penalize it?

But a unanimous Supreme Court ruled against Filburn. It held that his 239 excess bushels of wheat affected the national wheat market whether he sold it or not, since wheat he produced for his own use was wheat he didn't have to buy elsewhere. If other farmers did the same thing, demand for wheat — and its price — would fall. That ruling threw the door open to virtually unbridled congressional activism. After all, if wheat that never left the farm it grew on was tied to "interstate commerce" and therefore subject to federal control, what wasn't? Not surprisingly, the years since Wickard have seen a vast expansion of federal authority.

<snip snip snip>

"It looks like Wickard to me," Justice Antonin Scalia said. "I always used to laugh at Wickard, but that's what Wickard says."

Well, if Wickard says that Congress can ban or penalize Angel Raich's marijuana — noncommercial, medically necessary, locally grown, and legal under state law — then it says Congress can reach absolutely any activity at all. When I was a law student in the 1980s, I didn't laugh at Wickard, I was appalled by it. If Ashcroft v. Raich is decided for the government, future law students will have an even more appalling case to study.
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