Is college worth it for someone who already has passion to write?

[GoesTo11]

If a gifted and motivated student who reads a lot on his own wants to be a professional writer and already writes publishable stories, is there much upside to spending 4 years and all those thousands of dollars going to a university? Is it better to just save the money so that there isn't as much financial pressure while trying to get started? What would be alternatives to college that might be good steps toward a career, e.g., travel, working odd-jobs, living?

What would be the potential value from college? Could you really learn how to write better from typical classes? Are classes in creative writing ever really, really good, or are they just to give you a hobby? Would connections matter, and would college be the best way to get them?

I'm not asking for myself, as you can probably tell.

Asking seriously and would appreciate your thoughts on the matter.

[ogneopasno]

1. What kind of writing does he do? Fiction?

[GoesTo11]

11. Fiction, anything.

There's not much money in it, but if you can eke out a living at it, I suppose pursuing your passion is compensation for the material benefits foregone. But then $100,000 of student loans would make it that much harder to eke out a living. I remember also that what I learned in college was generally pretty useless (although I got credentials out of the experience and probably some sense of something) compared to what I teach myself now. There are paths to earning some $ as a writer, right? Not selling your novel in installments to Atlantic, but novels, web-business models, self-publishing, tv screenplays, song lyrics? Do you have to specialize? If you look at books on the Writer's Market, they list lots of possibilities, but don't really give a sense of what a writer's month to month cash flow really looks like, and what percent can sell how many stories, and how much skill has to do with it vs. hard work, luck and connections (never mind Joe the Plumber's book)!

[grantdevine]

2. Aren't there any two year programs that teach creative communications?

It's really important to learn the mechanics of writing, unless they're just going to write a novel, in which case they can just break rules and argue with the publisher about it.

If they want to work as a professional writer they need to follow standards. And certainly, connections are important. So is industry knowledge.

[petersjo02]

25. I agree with you

Although I was a writer before I started college, I wanted to take some classes that would provide me with the "nuts and bolts" of writing. We have exceptional junior colleges in Iowa, and my writing professors were all first-rate. My writing has benefited considerably from the exposure to academics as well as the back-and-forth communication and critique from both professors and other students in my classes (workshopping). I think also that the life experience college provides is worthwhile in any case.

[NashVegas]

36. That Wouldn't Be Worth It

Unless it's a name school.

[oldtime dfl_er]

3. College won't teach him/her to write

But it can teach critical thinking and depth of knowledge on any number of subjects - two things that are invaluable to writers. Notice I said "can" - it all depends on what the student brings to the experience.

[MineralMan]

4. It depends on the person

and the type of writing. If the person is writing fiction, college won't teach that person to write fiction, but it may well make that person's fiction better.

If it's nonfiction, then a degree in Journalism is a good idea.

I have written both in my life, and made my living as a magazine writer for almost 30 years. Making a living with fiction is almost impossible today, I'm afraid. And, with the internet eating up periodical publications like so many candy bars, non-fiction isn't much better.

Writing for a living is a tough gig. It's getting tougher, too. Probably the best money is in television and film writing, but that's a very, very difficult field to break into. Cable channels are the best bet, overall, but even there, the competition is fierce.

College is a good thing, though. It will broaden your friend's horizons, force him/her into reading what might not get read otherwise, and will sharpen skills.

I recommend it. Some have succeeded without it, though.

[Turbineguy]

5. It's nice to read

a book by a well educated author. I mean obviously one can get an education by reading outside of college, but the discipline is good.

I think if your friend is a talented writer, then study history, geography, philosphy or art.

I think you have to develop some life experience or knowledge of some subject.

Take for example Iain Pears who writes these 'Art History Mysteries'. Great reading and you learn something new.

[The empressof all]

6. IMO Go to college

This person will have an opportunity to get valuable feedback, be challenged in new directions and get exposure to information that they may not have an inclination to learning on their own. College is a total life enriching experience. If they are academically or creatively inclined, find a good liberal arts school that is a good fit and live on campus the first few years if they can afford it. I have never once regretted my liberal arts college experience. It's unfortunate that for so many college is considered "job training". No matter how motivated and bright they are, the experience can enrich their life in ways they can not now anticipate.

If this person is writing now and the quality of work is marketable they can sell their work for income while going to school. Youth is a one time experience.

[Cattledog]

7. Go to school. You can always dropout.

"What would be the potential value from college? "

A College education is much, much, much more than academics. It's a whole social experience. Meeting new people, being exposed to different ideas.

College isn't for everyone but I wouldn't swap my college days for anything!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

8. The more education someone can get,

the more he'll know and the more he'll be able to write about. Without a good education, and, frankly, a lot of years of living a well-rounded life, no matter how talented this boy might be, he has nothing to say. Nothing personal, but at that age, he's not yet lived enough to know things.

Things that come with living.

I get asked this question all the time; it's the third question I'm usually asked, the first being "Will you introduce me to your agent?' (No.) and "Will you read my manuscript?" (No.)

He'll learn how to write well by mastering the essentials - which, to my thinking, anyway, are not taught in "writing courses." The more exposure a young person has to all aspects of life, including work, travel, meeting all kinds of people, doing things he never thought he'd do, the more he'll have to write about, the better writer he'll be.

When you ask about "connections," I assume you're asking a few questions: 1. How does this kid get an agent? 2. How does this kid get a publisher to buy his work? 3. Who do you have to bang to get ahead in the publishing business?

Those are the questions everyone asks. Yes, it surely does help to know someone with a good agent who might introduce your young friend and his work to the agent. Just as in every other business, friends help doors to open. But, once you walk through that door, you're going to have to have a work that is special and you're going to need an agent who is wholly in your corner and who will move heaven and earth to sell your novel.

How many of us wanted to be something when we were in high school, and ended up as something else? For this young man to foreclose his options by narrowing his choices to "writing" (whatever that means), is a grievous error, in my estimation. He should be expanding his world, not narrowing it. He should, as I mentioned, be doing things he's never done before, meeting people he never dreamed he'd meet, tasting life, trying everything, and growing himself into a well-rounded person.

If any of this is helpful, I'm glad. I talk at a lot of high schools to kids who are taking advanced English classes, kids with great writing chops, having things published in obscure little journals here and there, and this is the advice I give them. So far, no one's pelted me with squishy tomatoes.

For myself, I spent a lot of years as a lawyer, and then, out of boredom with the law, wrote a novel, which led to my current life as a novelist and essayist. But, I am a freak. That's a cold fact. Things like this don't happen often. I never took a writing class, and had never written anything before that might have been called "fiction," although some of my court appearances might have fallen under that heading. The years as a lawyer contribute to my writing ability day in and day out; it's all about perspective, and the broader your perspective, the easier it is to narrow and watch those details that are so essential in the telling of a good story. Or the good telling of a story.

Good luck to your young friend.

[Pab Sungenis]

9. There is no money in writing.

At least for 99% of all writers.

Write as a hobby, which you can later make a career if you get the big break. Have a real career.

Besides, a real career gives you more life experience and more to write about.

[Cattledog]

12. WTF is a "Real Career"?

GWB had a real career. I'd rather have had Tom Wolfe's career.

[Pab Sungenis]

21. So would I

but less than 1% of all writers get that kind of break. You can't rely on making a living at writing.

[Berry Cool]

26. I make a living writing.

Not publishing books, but writing.

Don't be so discouraging. It can be done. And by way more people than "less than 1%."

[MineralMan]

28. That's simply not true.

While it is extraordinarily difficult to make a living as a fiction writer, writers of non-fiction do just fine. I did it for almost 30 years, and did just fine economically. I wrote for magazines as far ranging as Seventeen and PC World. I wrote three books, also non-fiction, as well.

I wrote and sold some fiction, too, but couldn't see that putting food on the table or paying a mortgage, so I wrote what did.

It's easy to say that one can't make money writing. That doesn't make it true. I did it. My wife did it, and is still doing it. I know dozens of people who do it. None are great geniuses. None are writing literary masterpieces, although some have gotten novels published. They make their livings, though, by writing information that people can use, in ways that people can understand.

If that's what a person wants to do, then it's doable. It's hard work. You won't get rich doing it. But, it's a really flexible way to live your life.

[LiberalHeart]

10. There's one thing every writer absolutely must have...

...and that is: A way to make money other than by writing.

[Cattledog]

14. Manual labor, working McDonalds, etc.

I'd rather do those jobs as a struggling writer than get bogged down in some corporate job.

[stray cat]

19. Minimum wage probably no benefits

[BamaGirl]

13. I'm a writer

I write fiction and for a fiction writer, I'm doing okay. There is no way I could live on what I make alone though. Most fiction writers either have a supportive spouse or a full time job. This is a very tough business to break into.

As for college, that's a personal decision. I majored in English. It's hard to measure how much that has helped or hurt me. Helped more than hurt I think. It exposed me to a lot of writers (and therefore styles) that I would probably have never bothered reading. It teaches you good research skills and the discipline to go along with the writing life. *deleting a bunch of stuff about writing you probably aren't interested in lol* I'd advise the student to at least go to community college for a couple of years then make a decision about finishing at an upper level school when the time comes.

I never bothered taking any creative writing classes, and I definitely wouldn't go back and pick one up now. Whether you take one or not, or whether it might be useful or not, is going to vary widely. Who's teaching it? What's the focus of the class? If you're a genre writer (I am) and the class is taught by someone who believes genre is trash and a waste of publisher dollars, you probably won't get anything out of it but frustration. (You could work any number of combinations of possibilities of that scenario.)

Every fiction writer I know is basically self-taught. Oh, most of us went to college. We have different expertise, etc. (I spent some time in the Army too.) But every fiction writer will also tell you, you learn to write well in two ways. Read and write. Write and read. You can learn valuable lessons from other writers (and I have), but like all skills, the best way to become proficient is hands on.

So no real answers from me, eh? I learned a lot of useful things in college that helped me become the writer I am today. Mostly what I don't want to write and discipline. I've never considered that a waste. It's better imo to have an education to fall back on, because like I said above this is a tough business. Sometimes it is downright brutal. Skill and talent are absolutely no guarantee of income.

[Norrin Radd]

15. Waste of time and money. Live life, make money, write during all your spare time.

Creative writing courses are useless. There are plenty of books and essays on the subject that are superior. Such as Lester Dent's master fiction plot (a prolific, well beloved author told me it was foolproof):

http://www.miskatonic.org/dent.html

I can recommend more.

Get an agent!

http://www.amazon.com/Literary-Agents-Right-Revised-Expanded/dp/047113046X/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229202964&sr=8-16

Artists should start young. Not too many rock bands make it when they start after their twenties.

[stray cat]

20. Make money - what are some good temp jobs to support yourself writing

before you make it big?

[Norrin Radd]

29. That depends upon the individual,

what kind of hours she/he wants to keep, whether one gets bored at one place for too long, or if one prefers long term stability.

It's either that, working and having spare time or some spare time, or ... going to school, working, accruing debt, and having no spare time.

[HereSince1628]

16. Depends on whether a person values a knowledge about writing beyond their own point of view.

If the only view that's important to a writer is the one that is personally developed then a scholarly pursuit of education is pointless.

A very similar thing might be asked about people in the fine arts.

If a writer or artist wants his/her writing to climb intellectual mountains, fight intellectual battles, and do so in intellectual language with a conciously theoretical point of view, it might be good to have an education.

The intellectual took kit available for acquisition at many colleges is pretty impressive. Few people outside of a scholarly community have access to the same sort of interchange and critiques of ideas that goes on in the commerce of the mind that is at the center of a good college or university.

Of course, whether or not a consumer picks one up or decides in favor of sweatshirts with school logos and images of mascots is a matter of personal choice.

[mikehiggins]

17. If he REALLY wants to write, college is a distraction

At any rate, he'd be better off learning a trade. White collar jobs are going to be few and far between over the next EIGHT years or so, plus you get to meet a lot of real people which is all to the good. Not that college types, or white collar workers, are not real people but their motivation is a little different.

I was doing a telephone job one night, along with several other electricians, and there was a good looking young woman working industriously away at her job nearby (no, this isn't a letter to Hustler). At one point she complained to the foreman that she could work all day--twelve hours or so--and not say a word to another human being BUT we electricians couldn't work for five minutes without some sort of joke or comment being made.

She thought WE were the ones with a problem.

It takes all kinds.

[stray cat]

18. can the person currently make a living writing - if not what will he or she do for support?

Passion is important but so is a source of income untill or if you can support yourself solely on writing.

[Hekate]

22. A liberal arts education is never wasted. Someone mentioned critical thinking and depth of knowledge

Those qualities and more can be gained by an attentive student. Of course there are students who sleep their way through college and learn nothing -- George W Bush comes to mind -- but for someone who wants to learn, the hard work involved brings lifelong rewards.

ALL classes that require term papers challenge you to learn to write, not just creative writing classes. Learning to do research, footnotes, bibliographies -- all those are very useful skills to have in your background. English classes expose you to many styles of writing from many eras and encourage you to think critically about them.

I can tell when I'm reading a book or a poem by an author with deep knowledge of one or several subjects, and it is a joy to me as a reader.

Of course a person can be an autodidact even today, but there are hazards in isolation. On a campus, in a classroom, you meet many different kinds of people with divergent backgrounds and notions about life. Your own ideas are challenged, sometimes vehemently, and you have to think fast to keep up. This is a good thing. It's the reason I'm not enamored of online classwork.

I know that money is a problem for many, much more so than it was in the '60's when I was an undergrad. Tuition and fees were much lower and I was able to slowly work my way through, paying as I went along, so that I ended without debt. I was poor as dirt, but at least I didn't have a crushing debt. Nonetheless, I think it can be done today, especially if you are willing to work part time and take longer. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

(Here's a wild-blue-sky idea: Harvard has an enormous endowment fund and several years ago decided to extend their scholarship program a whole bunch. Explore that.)

Other than that, I recommend finding a really good community college to save money on your first two years of undergraduate work. Freshman classes will be smaller by far. The university three miles from me holds many of its required freshman classes in Campbell Hall, capacity 900. Wow. Not much face time with the eminent professors in that one.

"Contacts" -- depends on your personality, in my opinion. I was too shy to "cultivate" people, having been taught I was never to ask for anything. Others will have to help you with that one.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Except to say: Go do it.

Hekate

[Uben]

23. I can't say......

....I did not finish college. I went two years, got married, had kids,.....you know the story.

But, I did not do so bad. Retired at age 45! Sometimes doing what you know is better than a college degree, especially if you plan to work for yourself. My best friend dropped out after the eighth grade, went to work for a printing company, learned the business, and started out on his own. He's retired now, as well, a multi-millionaire. It is done every day. Hard work, devotion, and common sense will get you a long way if applied correctly.

I strongly advocate college to those who can swing it. HAving a plan B is the next best thing to success!

[scubadude]

24. College is a place to grow.

How can it hurt besides financially? Personally I thing it is worth it.

If your friend is interested in writing, one of the best living writers is Dan Simmons. He is an absolute genius and a student (as well as teacher) of writing throughout history.

Using Mark Twain's Rules of writing as an example Simmons says:

"Creating realistic, important, necessary, and interesting dialogue is one of the hardest parts of learning to write well, but Twain’s admonition to the characters (and their author) to just shut up when they run out of things to say is more profound than you might guess. Knowing when to start and stop – not just in dialogue, but in the story or scene or chapter or entire novel – is one of the hardest things to learn in becoming a writer and the false-starts and non-endings are sure signs of amateurish writing.

Even Twain’s “litte rules” could be studied for months and not be fully explored.

“Use the right word, not its second cousin” seems simple enough . . . but if it’s so simple, why do so few published writers today, much less the legions of amateurs, succeed in doing it? Twain once said – “The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug.”

Much More here: http://www.dansimmons.com/writing_welll/archive/writing_index.htm

Best of luck to you and your writer friend,

Scuba

[GoesTo11]

27. My deep thanks for all of your considered and heartfelt advice.

Overall, it seems the vibe is to do college but know what you want to get out of it and focus on growing and don't waste time on the parts of college that are nonsense. Really helpful to hear from people who have made or tried to make a living at writing.

[LWolf]

30. Anything that broadens one's mind and experience is important,

and that includes college.

It's important to all of us. Especially important, perhaps, to a writer. No matter how gifted, a writer with limited education and experience is limited in where they can take their writing.

[holograms r us]

31. That is a good question...I guess it depends

I have taken a creative writing course at college that was nice but not particularly helpful to my craft because the professor wasn't the kind of writer to nurture me. However, the University of Iowa has a well-known MFA program for writers. A successful writer completed the workshop; I am sure that it may have given her connections, as well as exposure to talented writers, but I know someone else who attended a workshop there and didn't have the same experience (it was at the same university but I think it was a shorter program).

[Carter2]

32. Yes

I always think college is a great investment. You could take writing classes to help perfect your skills.

[Mike 03]

33. As a writer, I think it helps immensely.

At a university, a writer has to write on schedule and think about pleasing an audience and a teacher, which--if which the teacher is a published teacher--can be important.

Even though it is painful, I think writers need the feedback from other writers.

Secondly, at a university a writer can get some attention, either through the teacher, or getting a literary agent, or publishing in smaller venues.

Making friends who are writers. Writing is a crazy trade. You do it alone, and most writers write alone and live alone, and it can mess with your mind. It helps to have friends who also write, and you make them in writing school.

You get exposed to the work of authors you would otherwise not be aware of.

I'm sure there are many attributes I'm forgetting.

[Mike 03]

34. If you have not cross posted this, please consider doing so, because it is a fantastic

question, and there is sometimes more response in the other forums, either GD or the lounge.

[jwirr]

35. There are shorter routes. The Iowa University offers a writers class

at least once a year. I do not know the requirements to enter it but I know that they have produced some well known writers.

[NashVegas]

37. Yes, Absolutely. Just Don't Study "Writing"

Psychology, anthropology, economics, history - anything but Creative Writing. Oh, take the course, get the credit but don't major in it.

Going to college, especially if it's a good one, is beneficial for writers because you want to be able to bring something more to the table than your ability to construct a sentence.

The other thing about it is that having the name of the college on one's bio may be helpful if the editor you're pitching a story to is an alum.

[Taitertots]

38. Everyone leaves high school

Thinking they know everything. Then you go to college and realize you didn't know jack, and you start learning. You have to take math classes so you learn math skills. You have some electives, so you learn about economics, history, art, anything you want. You take your core classes, refining your writing. You can make connections, face new ideas, and build interpersonal skills.

Then there are the people who don't go to college. You never learn about history, economics, art, science, or math. All you learn is the one thing you do and nothing else. So do you want your writing to be able to pull from the vast volumes of human knowledge or McDonald's. If the writing is good enough to sell it will still be good enough after going to a university. If it is not, then you still have a degree. Or you can hope you are the one in a million that has no education and becomes a millionaire.

Oh yeah. Hot chicks in large numbers. Parties that go all night. And Hot Chicks in large numbers. University events, sports, kegs, student government, and the myriad of other activities. Did I say Hot Chicks in large numbers?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. The general knowledge and research skills that you gain in college

will stand you in good stead throughout your life.

Stop thinking of college as job training. Very few people end up doing things that are connected with their college major. I even had business major students who couldn't get any job except salesperson in a furniture store or Starbucks barista.

I'm a Japanese-English translator, but I majored in German and minored in English and French in college. One of my friends majored in sociology and ended up as a computer programmer for a foreign airline. I know someone who boasted that he had never been officially qualified for any job he ever had.

Here's what I learned in college:

1. How to make friends with people from all over the world.

2. How to write on deadline.

3. How to research

4. How to expand my horizons by seeking out the kinds of experiences that are available on a college campus: lecturers, performing arts, exhibitions, foreign and independent films

5. How to argue logically and what constitutes a valid argument

6. Lots of great stuff about literature, history, art, music, and science that could conceivably serve as background for a fiction writer