Imagine a surprise test for teachers...

[Boojatta]

One hundred teachers who teach grade six math are randomly chosen and given no prior warning that, at the beginning of the workday, they will not be teaching that day, but will be transported to a location where they will be tested.

They take the December exam in grade twelve math along with grade twelve students at a high school that has a record of having a high percentage of its graduates pursuing academic studies beyond the high school level. The people who will be grading the exams receive no hints that any of the tests were written by people who aren't in grade twelve.

What would you expect the distribution of grades for those one hundred teachers to be like?

If a solid grasp, at grade twelve level, of the subject area that someone is teaching isn't required to teach that subject area to grade six students, then why should people who don't have a college degree be considered automatically unqualified to teach grade six math?

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Actually, They'd Probably Do Fine In Massachusetts

It's a little-known secret that we probably have the best public education system in the country:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/12/mass_students_o.html

And, our per-capita state tax burden (including all state and local taxes) is lower than average for the US.

That's what you get from the most left-leaning state in the country!

[tech3149]

2. I don't think your idea is a bad one

but I question whether it gets to the root of the problem or could provide an effective basis for judging teacher qualifications. I've had many great teachers in my life that weren't the best or brightest, but the could convey the basic concepts and facts in a manner that could be absorbed and retained.

I never realized how hard teaching was until I had to teach my co-workers. Knowing the subject matter is only a small part of the problem. That might be the most minimal evaluation of qualification. What I think matters most is the ability to arouse interest and engage the brains of those you are trying to teach. I don't think that's something you can evaluate with any test.

[Boojatta]

9. "I don't think that's something you can evaluate with any test."

I presume that you mean it cannot be evaluated with any paper and pencil test. However, successful academic education beyond the high school level ordinarily requires people to pass paper and pencil tests. Should people who have no more formal education than a high school diploma have the opportunity to begin work as apprentice teachers?

[beyurslf]

3. I actually think they would do well on the tests. I think I could pass a 6th grade math test

tomorrow. I admit, sometimes my 8th and 9th graders bring home math that puzzles me for a little while. I have to think about it, but it generally comes back to me and I can do it. And I don't have a math degree.
Is there something that makes you think a math teacher couldn't pass a math test?

[Boojatta]

5. I suppose the first question is: to get hired to teach grade six math,

are people required to have academic credit in grade twelve math?

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Is that required for a high school diploma?

[LWolf]

13. Depends on whether 6th grade, in that district,

is part of elementary or secondary. That's not consistent from district to district. Some elementary schools are K-5, some K-6.

Generally, you don't need a math degree to teach elementary math. You get a multiple-subject credential, and teach all subjects.

Leaving elementary school behind, once you get into middle and high school, math teachers should have math degrees, etc..

Also depending on which state is doing the licensing, since the requirements for a teaching license vary from state to state.

Of course, teachers do have to pass exams to demonstrate subject matter competency in order to get the license to begin with.

[Jim__]

4. I can't speak for 6th grade math teachers, but I can speak a little bit to the math.

I'm not sure I agree with this: If a solid grasp, at grade twelve level, of the subject area that someone is teaching isn't required to teach that subject area to grade six students implying that the ability of instant recall of 12th grade math is a requirement to teach 6th grade math..

Math is a very broad subject. If you are specializing in a particular area of math, you are probably not going to have constant command of all other areas of math, even if its only at a 12th grade level. In 12th grade, I took calculus and abstract algebra. I think I could pass any 12th grade calculus test, mostly because I've used calculus enough. I think with about a 1 week preparation, I could pass any 12th grade abstract algebra class. However, without that week's preparation, I probably couldn't. There are just too many definitions and things that you need to be familiar with - e.g. prove the following set defined over these 2 operations is a ring. Usually that type of problem is trivial. But, you need to know all that is required for a set and 2 operations to be a ring - i.e. you need to know definitions.

I don't think any such surprise test would tell you very much about the qualifications of the teachers to teach 6th grade math.

[Boojatta]

8. Thank you for taking the time to reply to this thread.

There are just too many definitions and things that you need to be familiar with - e.g. prove the following set defined over these 2 operations is a ring. Usually that type of problem is trivial. But, you need to know all that is required for a set and 2 operations to be a ring - i.e. you need to know definitions.

To me, that sounds like a reason to revise math tests by providing some definitions to students on the test papers. After all, if it's possible that many students would find a particular problem trivial to solve, but that they might get a grade of zero on that problem purely because of a language barrier, then why not remove that barrier by supplying information that students need to overcome that language barrier?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. Having once memorised all the definitions is useful.

I'm currently supervising a 3rd year undergraduate maths course on Dynamical systems. I couldn't have answered most of the questions they have from memory, so I've had to go and look lots of it up, but because when I took similar courses I had to memorise lots of bits of it, they come back to me much more easily than if I were learning them from scratch.

[Taitertots]

10. Calc III and Matrix Algebra

I just finished Calc III and Matrix algebra last semester. I have no idea what it would mean for a set to be a ring.

I'm not sure that would be considered high school level math even. All that is required around here is less than pre-calc to graduate. Which should be known by a middle school level instructor. If you can't explain what a function is and do basic operations to functions you probably shouldn't be a math teacher at any level.

[Jim__]

11. I took abstract algebra in 12th grade.

Rings are algebraic structures that are studied in abstract algebra. The fact that you are currently studying math and don't know what a ring is, is my point. Math is a broad subject. My graduate thesis in math was on matrix theory, but, I doubt that I could pass a 12th grade test on that without some time to prepare. There are just things that you don't recall; that does not mean you are not qualified to teach math at the middle school level.

[Taitertots]

15. Your point is correct

I don't think that would be considered generally high school level math. I took college level physics in 11th grade, it doesn't make it 11th grade level science.

I think the problem is that we didn't call that the same thing. It seems analogous to vector spaces and various properties of vector sets and sub-spaces.

Generally 12th graders leave with pre-calc if not just algebra. A math teacher should be able to pass a college algebra or pre-calc test.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Let's test administrators first

I was once marked low on an evaluation for teaching my kids the difference between digital and analog clocks. The principal had to look 'analog' up in the dictionary. He wrote on the evaluation that since we do have digital clocks, we really don't need to teach kids to tell time. I wrote a rebuttal stating that it was in the state grade level expectations and our district curriculum and my contract said I was supposed to teach it.

So let's test administrators.

[LWolf]

12. Are they all math teachers? nt

[Boojatta]

16. The first words of the original post are: "One hundred teachers who teach grade six math"

Does it matter whether they are temporarily substituting for more qualified math teachers or they ordinarily teach math? Either way, they are working as math teachers.

Perhaps, in practice, people who are more qualified might be refused even the opportunity for a job interview while people who are less qualified continue to teach math simply because they already teach other subjects. This may continue until someone who is officially qualified is hired.

[LWolf]

18. If you understand the OTHER post

I made in your thread, a 6th grade teacher is not necessarily a "math" teacher, a specialist with a math degree, but a teacher with a multiple-subject credential, licensed to teach all subjects in a self-contained setting.

Those teachers are "highly qualified;" they meet the licensing requirements, including passing exams to prove subject matter competency in ALL the subjects they teach.

They aren't "temporarily" teaching math until a specialist comes along.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. The larger question should be

Why would a person with a degree in Mathematics teach school for $30K a year when he can go to work in the business world and make twice that much?

But we worry about competency testing. LOL There isn't going to be a line at the door waiting to take the test.

[NCDem60]

19. I'd love to see congress take the same test.,

Or any state legislature.

[Sancho]

20. Depending on what you define as grade 12 math, they would do ok in FL...

We have a shortage of certified teachers, but all certified teachers (elementary, music, Spanish, etc...everyone) in FL have to pass a basic skills test that has college math among other things. The math part has five sections: algebra, geometry, logic, finite math, and problem solving. They may forget something they haven't seen in years, but the test is pretty comprehensive and teachers here have taken some form of it for about 20 years.

If they were math teachers who were certified; they would have at least 6-8 college math courses and have passed a math test in Florida that would be aligned with all state curriculums, the National Council of Teacher's of Math, and college programs. They would not have a problem with such a test.

[Sancho]

21. BTW, we know that your suggestion doesn't work...

In Florida, about 2000 alternative teachers (those who know the subject but don't have a teaching degree) are hired every year. Five years later, less than half are rehired. Knowing math or anything else is rarely an issue. Classroom management, collaboration with other teachers, teaching kids who speak Croatian, Spanish, and Japanese in the same room with regular kids, etc. results in most of those folks leaving. In Florida, all certified teachers have training in ESOL (English as a Second Language). Really successful teachers take years of experience and study beyond an undergraduate college degree.