My son's 1st-grade teacher told him he has to say the Pledge

[Sabriel]

Are there any elementary teachers here who can give me advice on how best to let her know he doesn't have to?

I like her and don't want to either offend or bias her.

[no_hypocrisy]

1. You can print out the Supreme Court case from the Fifties that allowed

Jehovah's Witnesses to refrain from saying the Pledge. Let me know if you need a link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

[Warpy]

2. It's a little early for your son to find out his teachers can be ignorant

but he'll have to sooner or later and this teacher is ignorant.

Any student can refuse to say the pledge on philosophical grounds.

[fed_up_mother]

50. Kindergarten teacher?

They're not always the brightest bulbs in the pack, and I say that with greatest respect for every kindergarten teacher my kids have had. They were all wonderful teachers who loved kids and loved teaching.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

3. Here's the case law.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624

[MineralMan]

4. Rather than confront the teacher directly, consider

addressing your concerns to the school's principal and let him inform the teacher.

Nobody can be forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Further, anyone who wants may say it, but omit the "under God" phrase.

It's a shame this isn't known to every teacher in the country, but it's apparently not.

[Goblinmonger]

13. I disagree

Start with the teacher. Give the teacher a chance to do the right thing. If it isn't resolved there, then move up the ladder to the principal. It pisses me off as a teacher when people just jump right to the principal without giving me a chance to even respond to the problem.

[MineralMan]

15. I disagree with your disagreement...

In circumstances like this one, where a fundamental right is being quashed, it must be corrected on a system-wide basis. The principal must issue something saying what is permissable by teachers and what is not. If the principal won't do it, then the next step is to the school board. From there, if the situation warrants, it is to the courts.

Such a basic right is not a matter for a parent and a teacher. It is a systemic problem, and needs a systemic solution.

[Goblinmonger]

17. But you don't know if this is systemic or

just a teacher that doesn't get it. Our school very clearly states they don't have to stand but we have teachers that still talk about making them stand. I explain to them why they can't and normally that solves the problem. Going to the principal might be overkill. It might be where you end up anyway. The correct place to start on the ladder is with the teacher. Until they give the indication they won't address the problem, then you move up.

[MineralMan]

21. You say that you still have teachers that talk about making

them stand, and yet you say it is not systemic? How odd. Apparently there has been no clear directive from the administration regarding this. Therefore, it is a systemic problem.

That's exactly why I would go to the principal. It's not my business to figure out who's doing what. It would be my business to stop the practice, schoolwide, if I objected to it. I would go to the principal, state my objection to the practice, then supply all the legal information needed to make sure he understood that if the practice were not ended, he would lose the legal case I would bring, at some cost to the school.

What good would it do me to make the law clear to you, if the child would be subjected to the same thing the next year with a new teacher. Phooey. Fix it once, and be done with it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. No always start with the teacher

Follow the chain of command. When you go over the teacher's head you look like a hysterical parent. That's never good.

[MineralMan]

31. I follow the chain of command when I am part of that chain.

When I am the consumer, I may take a different route.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. As a teacher I am telling you that starting with the teacher in this case is the best plan

It isn't always smart to go over someone's head with a complaint. And unless you are dealing with a serious infraction like a child being abused, you should always start with the teacher when there is a problem with your child at school.

As soon as you call the principal, he/she will set up a conference with you and the teacher. The principal may not even attend. So whether you want to or not, you are going to be sitting down and talking to the teacher. :)

[fed_up_mother]

51. I agree. Start with the teacher.

Going over the teacher's head shows no respect for the teacher's position, in my opinion. Yeah, the teacher is wrong about this, but the situation can be corrected without going to her "boss."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

56. I diagree with always, but I would in this case

There have been times I have gone directly to the principal, and once a group of us started with a C&D letter to the superintendent (it was that bad).

[CRK7376]

43. I always omit

the under God phrase. I used to have my students recite the pledge and star spangled banner as an oral grade, but it was optional, not required. When I had JWs or others that protested that they didn't want to recite it or couldn't....no big deal...we found something else to recite, MLK "I have a Dream".....

[hendo]

5. well, you could show her case law

but that would likely just offend her. You could tell your son to play along, if you dont want to offend her. Explaining to her that you have a problem with the "under God" (?) part of the pledge could turn out badly for your son. She just might not understand, and/or hold it against both of you.

Good luck resolving this without hurt feelings on either side.

[hendo]

6. duplicate post

[kestrel91316]

7. MineralMan has it right. Do not pass GO. Go directly over her head

with a calm but firm call and letter to the principal. And send a copy to the teacher and the school board.

I have no patience with people like this.

[T Wolf]

8. Does she force him to pray to HER god, too? This form of child abuse has to be

confronted, or it will lead to more and more severe forms.

Go to the principal, school board, and a local newspaper to point out this indoctrination.

If the teacher will not follow the law, she needs to be removed, by any means necessary.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. The pledge of allegiance is a form of child abuse?

On what planet??

[MineralMan]

32. If the Pledge of Allegiance is coerced on a child

whose parents are of a faith that prohibits oath-taking or whose parents have a moral objection to it, then yes, that is child abuse.

Our school system has no authority to coerce such things from our children. It is that simple.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. No it is not child abuse

I agree with this parent that if she objects to her child saying the pledge, her child should not have to say it. It's not a request I have received often but I have always honored it without question.

But calling this child abuse is not only overly dramatic but also legally incorrect. If you tried to hotline it you would be laughed off the phone.

[Sebass1271]

9. The pledge of allegiance?

and if so, why can't your son say the pledge and why is it so insulting to you? I don't want to start a fight here, i just want to know why it is insulting?

Personally, the pledge is dear to me and is a form of respecting your country and flag.

[sinkingfeeling]

11. The OP didn't say it was 'insulting'. The fact remains that no one can force anybody else to say the

pledge. I won't say it because I would rather be a citizen of the world that 'pledged' to a single country.

[Goblinmonger]

14. Really? You don't get it?

What if someone doesn't believe in god? Should they be forced to pledge allegiance to a country under god? Don't you think it is a violation of free speech to REQUIRE someone to say something?

[paulsby]

48. when i was in grammar school

i was an agnostic.

i simply recited the pledge and was silent during the words "under god"

nobody said "boo" to me.

[MineralMan]

16. There are several reasons for not saying the Pledge.

One of them is religious belief. Quakers and Seventh Day Adventists have it as a religious view that oaths must not be taken, and they can support that with Biblical references. They simply do not take oaths.

The other is disagreement with the content of the Pledge, particularly with the "under God" phrase. As an atheist, I cannot say that phrase without making a liar of myself. My solution is to simply omit it and say the Pledge as I learned it in 1950.

In other cases, people who are not citizens of the USA may not say the pledge, since it is a false pledge to them. This is more of a problem than you think, since there are non-citizens in our schools in a perfecly legal way.

In any case, the First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech. That includes freedom not to speak.

[Goblinmonger]

18. We have to say it every day

in Wisconsin (or play the national anthem). I say it without "under God" as well. Very few people notice. I also have kids that don't stand and, rightly, I don't give a crap. Some talk while they sit and I don't let them do that since it distracts from those that choose to.

[MineralMan]

20. You may have to lead the Pledge, but no student may

be required to say it. That's the law. It's all been through the courts many times and is all settled. In fact, you could probably make a case against leading the Pledge. Apparently, you have that option, even now, since you could play the National Anthem.

[Goblinmonger]

22. Right. We have to say it as a school.

That's the requirement. No student is forced to say it or stand for the Anthem. Exceptions in the other sub-thread not withstanding.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. We have to say it at least once a week

It's a state law.

We let the kids take turns saying it over the PA. This week it was a kindergartener. I always love to hear their version - and on the PA. It's a hoot. :)

[Sabriel]

28. Here's why I want to stop it

1.) It's a pledge. Daily repetition serves no purpose. They'd be better off putting the time toward morning meeting or DEAR.
2.) It contains "under God." I'm an atheist, and so is my son.
3.) It's mindless indoctrination with a message that's not borne out by evidence ("liberty and justice for all," for example).

I am going to put a stop to it, so the intention of my post was to get feedback from teachers how to go about it without alienating his teacher.

Thanks to all those who offered opinions.

(The other messy factor is that I sometimes have to work professionally with the faculty and staff, so it's crucial that I approach this the right way....)

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. The right way is to talk to the teacher first

You don't need to call or talk to her in person. You can send a letter or email. If she refuses to exempt your child or gets nasty, then you should contact the principal.

[CRK7376]

44. Start with the teacher

and explain why this issue is important to you. If you don't get the results you want or your child is alienated , then you go to the principal. ...Good luck, alot of times it's just ignorance and a calm, rational discussion is a better method than blazing in to the Principal with fire and pitchforks....

[Donald Ian Rankin]

49. Someone trying to force you to say something is a good reason not to say it.

Especially a political statement.

[Peace Patriot]

10. Say your kid was diabetic, and the teacher hands out cookies...would you hesitate

to tell her to stop giving your kid cookies, for fear of offending her?

It is your right, and your child's right, not have this forced on your child, and if you believe that it is for the good of your child, DO IT!

Do it politely, of course, just as you would about cookies if they were poisonous to your kid. Just say you are teaching him his Constitutional rights, you don't think he's too young to become aware of them, and this is important to you--he shouldn't be coerced. Also, it could be a good learning situation for the teacher and her pupils. Respect the rights of others. And if you don't assert it, you don't give her the opportunity to learn this and become a better teacher. You are doing her a good turn.

Always assess the situation--as you are--with regard to a young child and an issue like this. Is your child ready to handle teasing about it--which could happen (even without the teacher saying anything). How shaky and insecure is the teacher? Is she quite new, unsure of herself? How prepared is your son for any possible consequences? You might want to wait a year or two. (By the way--what has your child said about it? How well does he understand the matter?)

I would do some thinking (and feeling) about it. But if your son understands the matter pretty well, is prepared for consequences, and if it is an important matter between you and your son, and one that has been discussed, and you have a good feeling about the teacher, then I wouldn't hesitate to mention it to her, maybe as a question. For instance: "I wanted to talk to you about how we can protect my son's right not to say the Pledge, without this being disruptive or a problem. He doesn't want to say it. I don't want him to feel coerced about saying it. What can we do?"

If you put it like a question, you give her the chance to think about it, and decide how to handle it. You include her. (Then she won't so easily categorize you as a troublesome parent.) And then you are going to find out if she knows your son's rights and the law on this. You can fill her in, if she doesn't know.

Your son is going to come up against MANY human rights issues, as he grows up. It would probably be good for him to experience an example of how to handle such matters, at an early age. But you are the only one who can judge at what age this would be good, and also judge the potential for blowback that he can't handle.

Someone upthread said, talk to the principle instead. I would really hesitate to do that, before you talked to the teacher. You have no idea how the principle will handle it.

How it should be handled is this: The teacher tells the class that people have the right not to say the Pledge, and they do not have to explain why. And she says, to the class as a whole, "If you do not say the Pledge, that is okay with me. Just stay silent." Thus, your son is not singled out. An alternative is that it is just an agreement among you, the teacher and your son. He can stay silent, no questions asked, no singling out. But the first scenario is better, because it is a general learning experience.

One other problem that I see possibly arising is that the teacher may lose authority in your son's eyes. He may think that, if she's wrong about this, she's not reliable. A teacher's authority is important because your son is transferring trust from you to the teacher. It's an emotional thing, with such a young child. Just be aware of how he's interpreting things. You don't want to encourage him getting the idea that he can defy the teacher on other matters, too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. Do you really think that giving sugar to a diabetic child is the same thing?

:crazy:

[Peace Patriot]

39. No, it was just an analogy--not exactly the same.

However, is pollution of your child's mind--if that's how you view the Pledge--all that less important than pollution of his body? Of course a direct threat to his life is more important. But his mind, and his rights and those of others, are important too. With diabetes, the threat would be immediate and require instant action, no matter the consequences. With mental coercion and violation of his rights, and your own rights and others' rights, you can take a more considered approach. But it is still urgent. The impact on him will not be immediate, but it will accumulate. The notion that "God is on our side"--the association of patriotism, allegiance to a flag and God--and also the notion that we are "under God" (that there is some hierarchical Power in the Sky that is 'over' us)--will get planted in his head, and associated with the authority of, and the child's emotional attachment to, his teacher. How often do you want that stamped on his brain? How many times will it take to create a template--an idea that it will be difficult for him to shake? You might put off action to second grade, if he is not quite ready to assert his own right not to say it. But why not try to nip it in the bud, if possible? Obviously, a parent has to judge this for herself, or himself. How important is the concept to you? When should it be dealt with, and how? But I see little reason, in the situation as described, not to just SAY something politely to the teacher, now, perhaps in the form of a question, and let her think about it. You don't have to be obnoxious about it, or cause any problem for the child. Re: diabetes, I just meant that, of course you would talk to a teacher about something you consider important, and your child's mind is important. If your child were dying of diabetes, you probably wouldn't care a fig about the Pledge or anything else. You have options with something like the Pledge. But it's still important.

[moez]

12. What's wrong with the pledge?

Just curious.... why don't you want your son to say it?

[MineralMan]

19. For one thing, the Pledge of Allegiance, as currently

written, includes the phrase "under God," which I certainly cannot say. As an atheist, saying that would make the whole pledge a lie.

For another, at least two Christian denominations teach against saying all oaths. You may have noticed that even the President of the United States need only affirm his oath of office. The same applies to every oath required of public office holders, the military, and even the oath you take in court. You may "affirm" any of them, under our Constitution.

Finally, we have many non-citizen children in our schools. They should not pledge allegiance to our flag, since it is not their flag.

Now is it clear? No law requiring saying the Pledge of Allegiance is valid, since it violates the First Amendment of the Constitution of The United States.

[endersdragon34]

23. Just curious

To any of you who can't say "under God" what happens if your kids join a high school choir (much in the future for some of you) and has to sing religious music? I played the cello in high school and we preformed a good deal of Handel's Messiah with the choir as well as Battle Hymn of the Republic. In addition to those songs the choir sang many other religious songs. Granted my high schools music program was one of the tops in Iowa (top 3 for sure) but I would be willing to bet many choirs sing similiar songs. What happens then?

[MineralMan]

24. I'm a musician, myself, and I've played and sung more sacred music

than you can imagine. It is not a conflict for me, since it is simply music that expresses some people's religious views. That is a very different thing than swearing an oath using the name of some deity.

For a while I even was a church organist (albeit not a very good one). There's no conflict with being in a place where people are worshipping some deity, as long as I am not compelled to do so. Compelling me to acknowledge that the United States exists "under God" is hardly the same thing.

[endersdragon34]

25. So you have no problem with saying...

"My eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord" for example. That is interesting.

[MineralMan]

30. Nope. It's my choice whether to sing a song or play

sacred music. For me, it is an exercise, not an obligation. Much of musical history is tied to the church, so it is impossible for a musician to avoid, and it is simply a representation of itself. I've also sung Buddhist and Hindu songs, when that was the program.

I even sing words I don't even understand sometimes, in languages I don't know. It is the music, not the words.

It is a different thing when I am affirming an oath or pledging my allegiance to something. That is a conscious committment, and I don't take such things lightly.

It's not really all that hard to understand the difference between the two.

[LWolf]

52. There is an obvious difference

between singing a song and reciting a pledge, an oath, etc..

I'm sorry you can't see it.

I'm a teacher, and I don't say the pledge. I stand with everyone else, I'm just quiet. I make sure that any of my students who aren't reciting the pledge stand quietly with me. Partly out of respect, but mostly to avoid conflict.

When my students ask me why I'm not saying it, I reply,

"I've said it enough times already in my lifetime. If I mean it, I don't need to keep repeating it. If I don't, it doesn't matter how many times I say it, it has no value."

[Sabriel]

29. Thanks for the comments and advice.

I'll write her a note tomorrow and see if that works. I really don't want to make a big deal out of it, but I'm also not going to let it continue.

[LWolf]

35. Sure:

Look her in the eye, smile, and say mildly, "Our family doesn't say the pledge. He will stand quietly out of respect for the students reciting, but he will not join them. It's important to us that he be respected, and that our family's choices not become any kind of an issue for him, for you, or for the rest of the class."

You don't have to give reasons.

[Kerrytravelers]

40. As a teacher (although no longer in the classroom,) I'd recommend speaking directly to the teacher.

It doesn't have to be confrontational. Just say that it is your family's preference that your child not say the pledge. If you came to me with that, I'd say "ok." She may or may not ask why. Be ready with what you want to tell her. Ten bucks says she had no idea and won't care one way or the other. If she says that all students must say the pledge, then show her the Supreme Court case that says otherwise. She may feel that she has to speak with the principal. That is fine. I'd tell your child to not say the pledge and to respectfully sit quietly while other students say it. If she flat out refuses and makes an ordeal out of your request, just tell her that you'll need to speak with the principal.

I bet all you have to do is let her know and that will be the end of it.

[CRK7376]

45. Spot on!

[noamnety]

41. Thank you for pursuing this.

I was forced to stand in front of the room and recite the pledge by myself in front of the entire class in elementary school, when the teacher caught me not saying the god part. It's one of my worst memories from school.

I'm a teacher now, and I was wondering what was going to happen there ... but fortunately our school mysteriously dropped saying the pledge after a few students asserted their right to not stand for it at an assembly - then they tried it over the PA system during homeroom instead of assemblies at the request of a (rightwing) teacher, and not a single person in my class stood for it, ever. I think it became more of a statement about students not saying the pledge than anything patriotic, so they gave up.

Schools are there to educate, not indoctrinate with nationalistic and insincere drivel, so I'm thrilled it's not part of our day.

Talking to the teacher politely but with the attitude that of course this isn't going to happen - and here's the court case explaining why, sounds like a great plan. I'd offer to meet with her and the principal if she likes. Most of us teachers prefer not to have to do a meeting with the principal and an angry (even politely so) parent, especially if the parent's made it clear the law's on their side and they'd prefer not to have to escalate it (meaning they will be escalating if need be).

[Lorax]

42. I'm curious

"For another, at least two Christian denominations teach against saying all oaths."

Are you a member of either of those religions?

"Finally, we have many non-citizen children in our schools. They should not pledge allegiance to our flag, since it is not their flag."

Are you or your son non-citizens?

I know that you said that the phrase "under God" is offensive because you are a non-believer. If that phrase were not in the pledge, would it be less offensive?

"Now is it clear? No law requiring saying the Pledge of Allegiance is valid, since it violates the First Amendment of the Constitution of The United States."

This makes it sound like more a matter of 'you can't make me' than about the pledge being offensive.

[noamnety]

46. I know you aren't asking me

but it's offensive on principle to force children to swear any sort of loyalty oath which they aren't even mature enough to understand.

It's offensive to require a loyalty oath to a country, rather than to a set of morals. (My country right or wrong.)

Would it be less offensive if it didn't include an affirmation of religion? Yes, but that's only a matter of degrees, it would still be offensive.

[Sabriel]

47. To update the situation

The fourth-grader's teacher called today to say that the fourth grader declined to stand for the Pledge today, and is that OK with me? She was just checking.

It's an epidemic! I knew we should've gotten the pledge shot when they were offered....

The first-grader's teacher seemed taken aback when I told her that saying the Pledge--or standing, for that matter--is a choice.

So.

[roody]

53. I am a teacher and I don't say it. Nobody can make me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. LOL same here

I stand quietly and respectfully but I don't say it. No one has ever said boo about it either.

[sally jo]

55. Are you against him standing up with the other students, yet not saying the Pledge?

I was a teacher assistant right before and during the illegal, immoral invasion of Iraq, and I refused to say the Pledge, but I didn't make a production number about it. I was working with a lot of rah rah patriotic types and I didn't want to even go there with them.