Teachers: Have you ever had a student

[yasmina27]

who irritated the crap out of you?

Taking the post on GD to another level.

I've taught a boy in my class for 2 years now - 7th and 8th grade - whom I just can't stomach any more. I feel very sorry for him. He is bullied by a lot of kids, and whenever I witness it, and it's all verbal, I immediately put a stop to it. But I have no control over it outside of my classroom or in the hall.

He is anal beyond belief. About his grades. I don't know if the pressure comes from home or if it's internal. He is in a homeroom with a wonderful teacher for students who are "different".

He is CONSTANTLY asking about his grades. At least 3 times each day, he asks what his grade is. I don't know, maybe his parents beat the crap out of him if he doesn't do well (although I've never seen evidence of such).

We have to post their grades online. Yesterday, he asked me what his grade was, I told him it's the same so far as what is online. He asked if he got #'s 41-60 wrong on his final what would his grade be? Like my brain is a calculator and could tell him right away!

It's to the point where I duck into the ladies room or avert my eyes when I see him in the hall, because he ambushes me about his grade, or do they have homework, or is there a test tomorrow. I talked to his homeroom teacher several times this year. She has tried to work with him about his constantly asking teachers questions. Not that asking questions is wrong, but he wants special attention. I give the class an assignment, and go over instructions orally and in writing. Then he raises his hand - what are we supposed to do? what page number are we on?

OK, I just took a break and reread what I wrote. I guess I come across as one of those unfeeling teachers that non-educators bitch about.

But the fact is that I have spent an enormous amount of time with this child. I have tutored him in homeroom, study hall, lunch time. He is unable to remember simple verb conjugations. "how do I know when to use this form or that?" "how can you tell if a noun is masculine or feminine?" Questions that I have answered both in class and to him individually - YOU HAVE TO MEMORIZE IT!! It's to the point where I truly believe that something is wrong in his brain - the synapses just aren't firing correctly or something.

I've recently learned that he is adopted. Not that that in itself is an issue, but maybe his problems stem from his birth parents in some way. I have no way of knowing.

If you've read this far, I thank you. I really, really love teaching this age group, and in more than 20 years, I have never had a student like this. I can't wait for next week to be over so that I don't have to deal with this child any more.

I've done what I can, but just can't give any more. My brain is tired because of him. I feel so bad for him going to the high school. I know the teachers down there, and they're not going to put up with what I have for 2 years.

I said to his homeroom teacher recently that he is going to end up being one of those kids who snap all of a sudden, and do harm to himself and/or others.

I wish I could have been the person to turn him around, to help himself. He walks around, with a beaten air about him - slumped over, wanting someone to be his friend. I want to tell him to turn around and just deck his tormentors, but he is a sensitive soul, who if he finds his way, can be a great person. But he needs to project himself confidently, which at this age, he is unable to do.

Thanks for reading this rant. I hope I haven't come across as a total bitch, but it helps to spew.

[foxfeet]

1. Thank the gods there is more to this post than just the headline.

I was beginning to think it was about something else entirely.

[yasmina27]

7. LOL I see your point

I have to confess, that my first year teaching (in another school in another state) I was a young 21 yo. I had a MAJOR crush on one of my students, who was 18 yo., but never indicated in word or deed that I was interested.

I HATE stories about teachers getting involved with students and wonder where their brains are.

[foxfeet]

13. Oh, honey. I live in the land of Mary Kay LeTourneau.

Forgive me if my mind tends to run "there" first.

[patrice]

2. Before I left teaching I was moving toward a system in which my students were going to receive

their own copies of my grading software (on discs) with (only) their own current grades in it, so that, in combination with the syllabus they could calculate exactly what level of effort they would need to put forth on upcoming work, quizzes and tests, in order to attain whatever their goal-grade would be.

[patrice]

3. P.S. I taught mostly Seniors, but I would want this system for Anyone.

[Davis_X_Machina]

16. Only problem then is...

...they'll figure out how little they can do to get by, and miss by a few points.

Pilots have a saying 'You can never have too much asphalt in front of you, or too much altitude below you'. Students can find their averages on our website, but if they ask me, I tell them:

"Do you work better scared? Then you have a 12."
"What are you going to do with the number I'm going to give you?"
"Are you really asking me 'How little can I do, and still not get grounded?'"

[patrice]

23. Point well taken. But once students know that they CAN control the situation, there will be

those who chose to "step it up a bit".

If I were a prospective employer, this kind of information would be very valuable to me: assessments that show me a student with a certain level of initial aptitudes and abilities and a grading system in which the student made specific choices as to whether his/her status quo would be maintained or pushed and the specific configuration of the "push".

But to respond more specifically to your point: there could always be a student-product for which only the overall weight is known and, perhaps, the weights of the elements in it's evaluation rubric, but not the definition of the rubric elements themselves (though I would want to limit the spectrum of things that could be the elements of the rubric).

[Tikki]

4. As a grandparent of a little guy with OCD...

:)

Your analysis of this situation seems to point to the fact
that you are experiencing a discipline problem with this student.

Follow your school's protocol and resolve this...You are stressed and
this young man is obviously stressed.

Good luck.


Tikki

[yasmina27]

11. Thank you

I never considered OCD, but it makes perfect sense. I'll see what I can find out on Mon.

[Catshrink]

5. I understand your frustration

and have been there, but not to that degree. It is annoying! Advice wise, I tell them the grades are posted and they can check it online or they can come in after/before school but I won't look up grades during class. (I feel that's enabling them and letting them be lazy -- but hold out the offer because a few kids don't have computers at home but then again, they can use the computers in the library.) As for the "what do I have to get on the final" business, I just flat out tell them I don't play that game, they can calculate it themselves. Period. And I don't do it.

That said, my thought as I was reading your post was this. It sounds like this kid is socially awkward and is trying to find a connection with you (and probably his other teachers as well). That connection is grades. He probably doesn't know what else to talk about besides grades. I don't know how you divert that attention -- I always talk about my dogs. Kids love pets and dogs especially. It works.

Will you have him next year also? I am so glad this school year is over. It just seems like it's been so long.

[yasmina27]

12. You're right

This has been a very long year.

and I don't doubt that this child is trying to connect with someone. And I feel horrible that it's not me, but frankly, the way he goes about it is totally wrong.

Fortunately, I won't have him again next year, but will warn the colleagues in my department at the HS about him. Maybe they can help him out.

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. He has OCD and probably aspbergers or autism.

What does the school psychologist say?

[yasmina27]

9. I don't know

if he's ever been evalated. I'll check with his HR teacher on Mon.

[noamnety]

8. It sounds like he needs help setting boundaries.

You can set a limit of five times per week that he can ask a question about his grades, give him 5 markers of some type, and each time he asks, put one of his markers into a jar. When he uses up his turns, he's done for the week. He probably would need an explanation about why that is, so that your time is used more productively teaching all the students out of fairness to them.

We had to explain to one of our kids the concept of turn sharks, kids who gobble up all their own turns and everyone elses. When he starts monopolizing the class time to the point where it affects the learning environment for others, he's told he may ask two more questions during the class - use them wisely. Sometimes he accosts me in the hall, I've learned to politely but firmly respond that it would be better for me if he'd wait until class to ask me that. If I didn't set boundaries, he would focus the entire class on himself along with my lunches, and consume every opportunity I had to walk through the hall to use the restroom. So it's self-preservation for me, but also developing self-control strategies for himself.

It doesn't sound, btw, like you are unfeeling so much as maybe you are frustrated and haven't been given enough guidance on how to best help this student. Bending to his every demand = enabling, and not helping him when he demands it = feeling guilty. The third way is working with the special ed teacher and his other teachers as a team to develop consistent strategies that each of his teachers use to develop workable routines and limits for him. It'd be great if you get to the point where you can drop a post-it on his desk that simply says "2" - and he knows that means he has two more chances to ask questions that hour, and that's all. It's unobtrusive to other students and doesn't publicly embarrass him. It's a strategy we use sometimes, along with secret hand gestures that the kid picks up on, but other students don't know about. I also would start answering questions about grades by consistently referring him to the online grades - "when they are updated, you can see them there. If they aren't online yet, it means I haven't gotten to them yet." If you relent on that once or twice, he will always be after you to see if you will relent again, whereas if every question is met with the same line, he will learn there's no point in asking.

[yasmina27]

10. Wow, what great suggestions

I wish I had posted this earlier in the year.

But I will keep this in mind if I ever have this situation again.


THANK YOU!

[LWolf]

14. I don't have anything to offer, really, but this:

:hug:

There are some good points made on other responses.

I think one of the things you are dealing with right now is end-of-the year burnout and stress. It happens every year, to some degree.

We're all tired, and as teachers we are all thinking about all of those "other" duties outside student contact time we are responsible for before OUR break starts.

Kids are checking out, intellectually, and starting their vacation early, in our classes. Others are stressing because, after a term of neglect, they are facing irrevocable deadlines. 8th graders in particular, at this time of year, can tend to think that they are "done" with us, have moved "beyond" us, and are focused on high school.

I have a couple of tough 8th graders this year that I can't wait to be done with.

Except that, in reality, I really like them, and will miss them and wonder how they are doing when September rolls around. They just have issues that are beyond the scope of public ed to deal with, and I'm tired of carrying their water.

The year is almost done. Hang in there.

[yasmina27]

15. You are so right

on all accounts.

Thank you!

[MichiganVote]

17. I guess we all deal w/students who drive us a little batty...but...

sorry, your job is to help all students with problem solving. Next time you have a student who seems to be overly anxious about his grades, why not try talking to the parents, the school counselor or even the kid. Or try writing down the answers to the questions you can anticipate, such as page numbers or assigned work or even what his grade is. If the kid is akin or Dx with Aspergers-visual answers are generally best.

As far as the kid wanting special attention---you lost me there. From the sound of things he needed special positive attention. If you gave it, I didn't read it.

In any case, the end of the year is rant season for everyone, including students.

[noamnety]

18. I read that she's been giving a lot of special position attention:

"But the fact is that I have spent an enormous amount of time with this child. I have tutored him in homeroom, study hall, lunch time."

I don't believe the frustration is at all due to any lack of effort on the OP's part, or lack of positive attention. I think it's far more likely the school missed a diagnosis here and as a result the student isn't getting the type (not amount, but type) of support services he needs. That ends up being frustrating for the student as well as the teacher.

Back to the focus on grades, with my student who sounds exactly like the one described here, I remember also having a conversation with him concerning stressing about grades, vs. learning objectives. I had a talk about how I know his focus is on whether he got an 85 or an 87 on a test, but I wasn't going to spend an extraordinary amount of time figuring grades for that, because it wasn't important to me. What was important to me was that he learns __________________ (insert goal for the lesson). If he focuses on that, I told him, the grades will follow. That's what education is about, learning new skills and knowledge, not "getting a grade." I know he didn't buy into it 100%, but he understood better why my own priorities were not on figuring whether his GPA went up 2 percent or 2.5 percent if he left two multiple choice questions blank on a quiz. Computing those hypotheticals for him wasted my time and his, and did nothing to advance his mastery of the skills.

[yasmina27]

19. Special positive attention?

As I stated in the OP, I have worked with this child in a one-on-one situation on many occasions. I've talked with his counselors, parents, other teachers, and HR teacher (who also teaches spec. ed.), and there is no formal dx of any kind.

I HAVE worked with him on problem solving, but he is unable to carry it over to a test. Without an IEP, there is no way I can help him, aside from what I've done. I have met with him during HR the day of a test. By 1st period, he can not remember what we went over, orally, in his notes, on handouts, and what I write on the board.

I KNOW the teachers at the HS, where he will go next year, and they will not accommodate him like I have w/o an IEP. At some point, he's got to figure this out on his own.

I also stated that I give instructions both orally and in writing. Yes, MS kids are notoriously scatterbrained, and he is not the only one who ever asks for clarification. But he IS the only one who consistently asks - every time - for special, individual explanations.

[MichiganVote]

22. An IEP is not necessary for the kinds of accomodations you have made.

[noamnety]

27. Your point about the IEP is valid

I had one student who came here (a high school) without an IEP. I had to push like crazy to get him one. The case load is so high for our special ed teacher that her policy is that the parents need to request an IEP, she doesn't go looking to initiate new ones.

I had several exchanges with her where I said this kid HAS to have one. I was shocked that I was the only one pushing for it, to be honest, because I'm an art teacher - not the usual source for this. But I just knew.

I wasn't getting anywhere with emails and conversations. I eventually brought some of his work samples to her, along with comparisons of samples from classmates. She looked at them, her face fell, and she got it.

She called a meeting with the mom, and we came to find out he had been in a self-contained classroom for the past 6 years. (!!!) She didn't mention it to us when she enrolled him. (I could go off on a diatribe about why that is, but I'll spare you.) Anyway, he got special ed services here, an hour a day in the LRC, mainstreamed all other hours, and post-graduation assistance. Understanding his disabilities put us in a far better position to work as a team for him. Even though I'm the art teacher, on a day he was participating in a debate in social studies, I had him out in the hall practicing his part in front of me - as did the other teachers he had that day, because he has memory issues.

My point is that I'd push to set your student up for an IEP meeting if you can before the end of the year, or at a minimum contact the special ed teacher where he will be going and give her a heads up. Sometimes the parents won't push for services even if they know their kid needs them, or they assume the school has it covered. We can't force it on the parent, but he'll probably be more successful with services.

One other point - someone mentioned that not every special ed kid needs to be in a special ed class, which is of course true. But they might still benefit from an hour in the LRC at least for a semester or year. We have kids who have aspergers and are at the same time gifted (some end up with full scholarships to universities). They don't need the LRC for remedial studies, but for some assistance with life skills, study skills, or college prep skills. It's a shame there is such a stigma around getting services that the immediate reaction is often "why do they need to be there, they aren't stupid" as if learning disabilities = not smart. (I'm saying this as someone married to a guy with a masters in engineering who has a learning disability. Unfortunately, his wasn't properly diagnosed, so he was bounced in and out of remedial classes even though he's incredibly smart.)

[Happyhippychick]

20. I have a few suggestions

First of all, hugs to you, you are a wonderful teacher.

Boundaries: he needs them but I think with this child it is not enough to simply say "you can only ask me about grades once per day" (although I think it's a great suggestion!). He sounds like he has aspberger's and giving him a boundary is not enough, he needs a replacement behavior. I would say to him, "when you see me in the hall you can ask me how my day is" or "you can tell me how your day is" or "you can say "hi"". I agree that it sounds like aspberger's and he will need to have a lot of social counseling in order to learn how to properly relate to people.

You have done a lot for this child, maybe too much. If it is a drain on you then it is too much! Remember that the way you are experiencing him is the way everybody is experiencing him and it sounds like he doesn't have enough strategies for learning how to navigate social relationships. He is asking questions inappropriately not necessarily because he wants attention but because he doesn't "get" that it's inappropriate.

His shoulders may be slumped because aspie kids have low muscle tone, it's not necessarily because he is depressed although it certainly could be. Can you talk to the parents directly about him or just the school counselor?

Good luck to you, you have done wonderful things for this child but you can only do so much. He needs to be in a peer group with other kids who have similar issues so that he can learn appropriate social skills.

[ida and pingala]

21. I am not a teacher yet; I will be starting grad school in the fall, but I have taken education

courses and observed students and teachers in classrooms. One thing that has consistently amazed me is how many teachers lack patience and even come down on kids who "don't get it." Please don't think I am saying this to insult you. You acknowledged your burnout and I am sure that it's very hard to deal with all the kids on a day-to-day basis.

Some children have learning disabilities which are not severe enough to place them in SPED classrooms. They may be very bright, but have ADD or auditory processing issues (hearing lectures or receiving instructions is hard for them), or other things going on. He could have OCD and be a perfectionist about his grades or perhaps his parents do beat him (I hope not).

I would suggest that you ask him to stay behind at the end of class and tell him that you have noticed that he asks constantly about grades. You could find out why the anxiety exists and explain to him that you will no longer answer those questions constantly. You could even refer him to the social worker. Actually, you should definitely do it because he's getting bullied, also.

[yasmina27]

24. Slow to respond to this, but

I first read it this morning, and it's taken until now for me to craft a coherent response.

First of all, please understand that I am in a unique position in our school, in that I have had to deal with this child for 2 years. 98% of the other teachers only have their kids for 1 year.

I AM frustrated and burned out trying to deal with him. But that's why I vented here. I have never "come down on kids who 'don't get it'".

I posted up thread that I wish I had posted this earlier in the year, because I love the ideas suggested, including yours.

Our school is very proactive regarding bullying. We take it very seriously, in fact, I presented an inservice at the beginning of the year to our school staff on relational aggression. This child is in a specialized homeroom for kids who are bullied. Their teacher works with them extensively on coping skills, proper reactions, and so forth.

I wish you great luck when you finally get a classroom of your own. It is very easy to be critical of a teacher when observing. I wonder, were your observations of a single class over a period of time, or various classes for isolated periods of time? I'm not being critical of your experiences. Observations are great, a terrific way to see different teaching styles, and to determine your own methods.

It's just that being in charge of your own group of students changes your perceptions of the classroom. I remember as a student, saying to myself that I would never do this or that, or that I would doing something in a different way. Then, when I was in charge, I realized the rationales behind the things the teachers had done. In no way could I have anticipated this.

[mzteris]

25. can you say "ASPERGERS?"

THIS is why parents snap and complain about some teachers.

I'm sorry you feel so put upon, but you're the teacher and he's a KID!! Isn't it incumbent upon YOU to get a handle on things?

[noamnety]

26. Thank you for that productive advice.

:eyes:

[SheilaT]

28. I have to agree with those who think

this kid may have Asperger's. My oldest son has it, and there are strong similarities between what you report and what I've observed with my son. It's also possible that he has not been properly diagnosed.

Asperger's kids can be highly frustrating. But you have to understand that they can't really help themselves. They will obsess on certain things, to the point that they can make those around them batshit crazy. And they are rarely aggressive or even strike back when provoked. They often have no friends because they are so very different from others. And often they are extremely smart and are surprised when others don't share their interest or obsessions.

I do hope this kid gets the help he needs, and that his parents and the school get a good diagnosis of what's going on.

Best to you. Teaching is not easy.

[liberalhistorian]

30. No, they can't help it at all, my son's an aspie.

It's actually always almost been more frustrating watching his treatment at the hands of teachers and admins who don't and refuse to understand him than it's been watching his own frustrations. Because they should know better and because just a little encouragement from any teachers goes a LONG way for these kids. They get enough judgment, intolerance and dislike from the world in general, often including their own families, and will continue to do so throughout their lives; they sure don't need it from their own teachers.

I have little, if any, patience for teachers such as this. Not only can the students not help it, but, unlike the teachers, they never get a break. It's the way they are, and it's exhausting and often depressing for the student and they can't ever take a "break." Everyone else around them can.

[liberalhistorian]

29. And just why the hell do you think he "walks around with a

beaten air about him?" Because he KNOWS how different he is and is made to feel that every single fucking moment of the day by everyone around him, including those teachers such as YOURSELF, who are supposed to at least try to understand him and encourage him. Do you have ANY idea what it's like to be different like that from something over which you have no control (it sounds like he's an aspie or learning disabled)? Obviously not. Well, I do, both firsthand (learning disability not diagnosed until high school), and raising my son, who's an aspie and who's had to deal with teachers like you all through school. Fortunately, he's had many who weren't like you, who looked past his differences and saw him for the wonderfully unique, original, intelligent person that he is. The ones who didn't were and are a major pain in the ass and shouldn't even be teaching. And my retired teacher parents would definitely agree with that; they were in the classroom nearly forty years and had no patience with colleagues like you. NONE.

And neither do I. Maybe you should find another profession and do us "weirdos" a favor.

[Odin2005]

31. I'm an Aspie and dealing with asshole teachers dominates my school experience.

The OP need to learn to see things from that student's POV.

[merwin]

34. Not necessarily the most constructive post. Quite rude, actually.

The OP acknowledged the possibility of the kid being on the spectrum, and expressed serious interest in getting some sort of a diagnosis.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of kids on the spectrum who aren't diagnosed and as such don't raise suspicions from most teachers because it's not something that they're taught to actively look out for.

I don't personally blame my teachers for not recognizing this and coming to other conclusions. It's a matter of being informed of the signs and being able to recognize it. And the fact that the OP is acting upon this advice is more than I can say for many teachers out there. The way I see it, the original post was clearly written out of exhaustion from being the only one willing to at least attepmt to give some kind of assistance to him, and the frustration of not being able to "get through" to him.

[jody]

32. Your school has already identified him as "students who are 'different'". That's a start. n/t

[elleng]

33. Do more than PRAY

that they come up with useful help: TELL THEM WHAT THE PROBLEM IS, and direct them to find useful approaches.

[WayneFrancis]

35. Yes