Test Scores and Teacher...

[YvonneCa]

...Evaluation. Arne Duncan is(maybe)listening here:

http://www.edgovblogs.org/duncan/2009/07/secretary-arne-duncan-speaks-at-nea-conference-invites-comm/


Worth it just to read the comments...our fellow educators are speaking up. :)

[Reader Rabbit]

1. I left this response:

For the life of me, I cannot understand why Secretary Duncan and others who have never taught in a public school classroom are so obsessed with merit pay, particularly when they are repeatedly told by those with experience that it is a bad idea, and that it won't work. When doctors, lawyers, and engineers give their professional opinion on a subject, non-experts listen intently and usually follow their advice. Why is teaching the only profession not accorded the same respect?

Ignoring for a moment the blatantly obvious—that test scores in no way indicate teacher performance—the simple fact of the matter is that performance-related pay does not work. If you won't listen to teachers on this matter, Secretary Duncan, then perhaps you will listen to those in the business world, whose opinions you seem to value far more:

Does Performance-Related Pay Boost Performance?
http://blogs.bnet.com/bnet1/?p=2160

Pay for Performance Can Be a Terrible Idea
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-turn-pay-for-performance-into-a-bad-idea-2009-4

If you want the advice of someone with 15 years of classroom experience, the best way to improve education in America is to actually listen to the people who are doing the educating. And if you don't want the advice of those of us who have been on the front lines of this problem, then you have no business calling yourself an educator.

Forgive my hostility, but it is *my* students who are suffering as a result of decisions made by those utterly ignorant of the realities of public education in America. It would be nice if someone who *doesn't* work in a classroom finally opened their eyes and acknowledged that fact.

The comment is awaiting moderation. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't post it, though.

[YvonneCa]

2. It's an excellent comment. I completely agree with...

...you. I am glad you spoke up on this. My motivation is the same...the students are suffering from this political 'ping-pong' game more than anyone else. Teachers need to be their voice.

Thank you for speaking out. I hope they post your comment.

[YvonneCa]

3. They did post it! YAaaaay!! n/t

[Catshrink]

5. Excellent!

:yourock:

[Dinger]

7. Good Job!

Better than I could write, that's for sure.

[Dinger]

8. I Chimed In Too

My comment is awaiting moderation, but it's pretty negative, and not nearly as eloquent as many others there, so I'll be surprised if it gets in.

[Riley18]

22. Great comment and I am glad they did post it. Merit pay based on student

test scores makes no sense. It would be the same as not paying a weight loss doctor unless the patient actually lost weight. How about holding dentists accountable for all the tooth decay a patient incurs after the first appointment? I teach third grade, but do not want to be paid based on how they do on one test. It would be different if the merit pay were based on what I do to improve my teaching ability. We already have National Board Certification for teachers, and if Arne were serious about merit pay he would check with NCBT.

[jody]

26. Agree with your point re teaching but "performance-related pay" does work for jobs that have a clear

and objective way of measuring output, e.g. number of buckets of vegetables harvested, number of pounds of cotton picked and similar output.

I don't mean to throw cold-water on your post which IMO is great.

Just sharing memories from my childhood of harvesting vegetables and picking cotton all by hand.

[callous taoboy]

4. Third grade is the first year we administer standardized tests at my school-

I wonder if the blatantly racists comments I've heard several of my lower grade colleagues make in regards to some of their students will translate into test scores worthy of taking to the bank when their former students come to me in third grade? Everyone always points out the "outside" variables that affect student performance, but what about having a racist teacher who assumes a student will "naturally" not be learning as well as the others.

[donco6]

24. I hear "We're doing the best we can with THESE kids" all the time.

It's discouraging. I want to say, "Well, you know, our parents aren't keeping their best kids at home, folks."

[AdHocSolver]

6. A major problem with US education is it has been politicized and coopted for nefarious purposes.

Tests should assist teachers to determine what students have learned. Teaching should never be an activity pursued merely to enable students to pass a test.

Moreover, if teachers can determine what students have learned in ways other than giving a test, for example, writing an essay, or completing a project, then that should be the preferred method, other than a standardized test.

An externally imposed test is a means of deprofessionalizing teaching. It effectively removes control of what is taught and how it is taught from the teacher. This seems to be the goal of externally mandated testing.

Students who pass through this kind of system will come to look on their teachers more as robots rather than mentors. Students will come to believe that they must (as their teachers must) practice blind obediance to an unknown, all powerful external authority figure (Big Brother?). This also seems to be a goal of externally mandated testing.

Externally mandated testing is more than just a means of screwing the public school system and the public school teachers.

Claiming that this testing is about such issues as merit pay and quality teaching rings hollow in a country where a bunch of incompetent and crooked bankers are routinely paid multimillion dollar bonuses after destroying the economy.

[YvonneCa]

9. So how did NCLB happen and...

...how did educating children become 'big business'?

[AdHocSolver]

11. The basic problem with education is the imposing of corporate business values on society.

Mandating standardized testing is one method of applying "bean counting" methods that are designed to maximize "profit" and minimize "cost".

In the corporate world, the quality and safety of a product are irrelevant. If a corporation can make more profit selling, for example, cigarettes to young people, compared to the cost of paying legal fees to defend against potential law suits, then that is going to be the business plan that is pursued.

Whereas parents and teachers look on education as a means to provide children the ability to learn to live in society, make a living, and maybe intelligently participate in politics, the corporate mentality looks on schools as a profit center above all else.

Corporations will demand tax breaks to "create" jobs. As soon as some government entity gives them the tax break, the corporation will find a way to use that money to build a factory in China.

NCLB is designed to trash teachers and public schools. The standards are rigged, the testing is rigged, the wealthy suburban school is effectively placed in the same category as the underfunded inner city school. This is considered "fair" and "scientific" that these different school systems are all treated alike.

Art and music, while good for the soul and the intellect, do not enable a person to effectively maintain their ability to work year after year in a mind-numbing, low-paying, dead-end job. Therefore, it is not cost effective to pay for such education for students whom the corporations will never promote anyway.

The businesses often rely on the old geezer vote to stifle referendums proposed to spend money on school upgrades. These old geezers are mostly Republicans whose kids have left the school system and moved away. They do not want their tax dollars to pay for anyone else's school children. These old geezers will often help like-minded individuals get elected to school boards.

Moreover, money spent on schools won't be available for tax "incentive" giveaways to corporations.

Politicians who control the purse strings will pay more attention to the educational expertise of members of the local Chamber of Commerce than they will to teachers, parents, or any school official. What do the latter people know about education anyway?

[YvonneCa]

12. I agree with a lot you say. Thanks for the response. n/t

[Glory89fan]

10. Indeed

Is it any wonder our tests scores are one of the most when compared with other industrialized nations?

[AnneD]

13. They are trying to superimpose the business model on education...

just as they have tried in health care-and it will fail as miserably.

Children, like the ill are not widgets that can be manufactured. Children are like raw diamond. They come in different sizes, quality, colours, and have flaws. That being said, in the hands of a good teacher, they can, with time and patience, shine brightly.But that requires a diamond cutter, not a cookie cutter.

Education, like health care, does not benefit well with a profit motive end product. Some things should remain non profit enterprises.If teachers were motivated by money, they would not be in teaching. But give them a salary that acknowledges their professionalism and hard work, not an incentive based on an arbitrary tests.

I saw how hard everyone at my school worked last year only to lose the bonus because of 1 yes 1 child brought us down in one group. It was dishearting not to have the great gains recognized. We got the bonus this year. It was good to get it but it was a hollow bonus. People will learn to rig the system and they tend to pit teacher against teacher and who will go into school that are poor preforming if they know that it will be years before they see the fruit of their hard work.

[YvonneCa]

14. Professions: Education/Teacher and Medicine/Doctor ...

...as these professions are conformed to a business model, they seem to be treated differently with very different goals.

Education/Teachers...ignored, scape-goated, diminished...it seems with the goal of a 'service-model' teacher. Education is labor-intensive. More teachers are needed to do things right, but the model can't support the same pay/benefits/pension/etc. Looking for mass teachers-on-the-cheap.

Medicine/Doctors...ideas valued, profession elevated, respected...different goal but still service-oriented. More low level people needed, but skilled doctors still needed, just a need to pay them less. (Couldn't do that to teachers, they make too little as it is. :7 )

Thoughts?

[AnneD]

15. They dump more patients on Nurse-like the teacher....

Nurses now do treatments that once only Doc's did and they don't charge less or give the Nurses a little extra for doing it. Case in point-Foley's, some caths, IV's.

I work as a school nurse so I see more parallels than differences. I went into Nursing and watched Insurance and Business take over this non profit business and make a mess of it. They are doing the same thing with Charter Schools now. God help are kids. They are not widgets!!!!!!!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. I worked with a teacher who was told she had to catheterize a child

We had no school nurse at the time and this little girl needed to be catherized at lunchtime every day so the principal said the teacher had to do it. She said no and the union got involved. Finally the mother agreed to come to school and do it every day.

Still blows my mind.

[YvonneCa]

17. Does that principal still have a job? His/her bad judgment...

...endangered that child. The principal should have been fired. Teachers do not have medical training. Following such an order would have been dangerous. I applaud the teacher who HAD the good judgment to realize that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. District admins backed her on it

Believe it or not.

[YvonneCa]

19. Unbelievable. Thank goodness the teacher had...

...the common sense to do the right thing.

[AnneD]

20. Sadly I see a lot of that.....

Schools try to cut Nurses from the budget and their solution is to make the teacher responsible. Now teachers can be assigned to give pill meds but anything invasive violates most state Nurse practice acts and forcing the mother to come up violates the Americans with disabilities. If mom takes a notion, she can sue AND win. The district would find it cheaper to just hire a Nurse than lose millions in a no win case.

More often than not Unions protect School district leaders from themselves.

[Progressivism]

21. Nice point.

That's a wonderful point. Acknowledgement, not incentive, should be the idea behind money.

[YvonneCa]

23. Kicking this one, too, in honor of...

...NEA finally stepping up. :)

[LWolf]

25. I'm there; I posted a couple of replies last month.

I predict that the responses will be cherry-picked for the very small fraction that support the administration's agenda as evidence of "listening."