Expanding the Charter Option (More Charter Schools Wanted)

[WriteDown]

Source: WSJ

Andrea Byrd, mother of two boys, had enough with her son's school. After she and her older son, Andrae, moved from Mississippi to Memphis a year ago, the formerly straight-A student "started dumbing himself down," she says, to fit in with the other boys at his new school.

"I needed to get my child into a school where there were high expectations," Ms. Byrd says. A charter school had recently opened nearby, but the 34-year-old single mom hesitated over getting an application since Tennessee law required her son to either be considered low-performing—which he wasn't—or attend a low-performing school—which he didn't—in order to get in. But all that changed a few weeks ago, when the state enacted a law for charter schools to also include students from low-income families. Two weeks ago, Ms. Byrd went into the Power Center Academy for an application. Later that same day, she got a call to say Andrae had been accepted.

The U.S. Education Department is engaged in a high-pressure campaign to get states to lift limits on charter schools through a $4 billion education fund, Race to the Top, that encourages more charters as one of the criteria for states to qualify for a piece of the pie. A total of 40 states and the District of Columbia permit charter schools.

In recent weeks, seven states have lifted restrictions, a spokesman for the department says. Tennessee, for instance, passed a law that raises the state's limit on the number of charter schools to 90 from 50 and allows more students to qualify for entry. Illinois doubled its limit on the total number of charter schools to 120. Louisiana passed a law that simply eliminated the existing cap of 70. And several other states are moving in a similar direction. Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick proposed legislation that more than triples slots for students in charter schools to over 37,000 from the 10,000. Rhode Island's Legislature, which had considered cutting $1.5 million from the budget for charter schools, restored that money in large part to compete for the federal funds. ...

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203863204574346500121979982.html#mod=whats_news_free?mod=igoogle_wsj_gadgv1

[Ozymanithrax]

1. Many Charter Schools exist to teach creationism...

as a science and foist religious ideals off on their students.

I favor abolishing charter shools.

[mzteris]

7. WHAT?

Where did you get that from? Do you have any proof of this or is it just your opinion. I would be VERY interested in seeing which schools/where actually DO this. . .

Please provide a credible source for this information.

[Sub Atomic]

13. Google it.

I just did and I'm appalled at what's come back.

[mzteris]

15. oh puhleeze -

give me your "sources".

[Sub Atomic]

23. I'm not your freaking secretary.

Are you really just too damn lazy to Google it yourself?

[mzteris]

24. I'd like to know which source you're

referring to so I can correct your misconceptions.

[Hannah Bell]

62. bullshit.

[Freddie Stubbs]

35. And many charter schools do not teach creationism

Fortunately President Obama is a supporter of charter schools.

[Hannah Bell]

54. yes, he's definitely a supporter. why do you think that's fortunate?

[fasttense]

2. Just another way for government to destroy unions and give Americans minimum wage jobs.

"Proponents say charter schools offer competition in often-stagnant public-education systems. A significant difference is that they are typically nonunion. To that end, teachers and school administrators have complained that the schools receive taxpayer funds while enjoying many freedoms regular public schools lack, such as hiring noncertified teachers or setting up their own disciplinary codes."


With all these perks that charter schools get they are still not all that good.

"The data on whether charters are working are mixed, at best. A Stanford University analysis of test scores of students at charter schools in 15 states plus Washington, D.C., released in June, is widely considered one of the most comprehensive studies on the subject. It found that only 17% of charter schools reported academic gains that were significantly better than traditional public schools, 37% of charter schools showed results that were worse than traditional public-school counterparts, and 46% of charter schools demonstrated no significant difference."

[mzteris]

8. Many Charter Schools ARE UNIONIZED

there is nothing that prevents them from being so.

Did you happen to read the REST of that report or just cherry-pick the "fact" that supports your rejection of charters.

[EFerrari]

19. The article says, twice, that most are not. n/t

[mzteris]

25. they are becoming increasingly so

in states where unions are favored.

Did you know that there are also many "public school teachers" who do not belong to a union?

Believe it or not, there are areas of this country that are not that into unions.

[Hannah Bell]

55. the article says, twice, that most charters aren't unionized. that's why it's "news" when some

unionize.

all public schools have union presence & representation, even if individual teachers choose not to belong.

[Dinger]

41. Could I See A Link(Source) Please?

Thank you.

[Doremus]

3. Dismantling public schools bit by bit .....

If we focused all our energy on *one* task -- improving public schools -- instead of these fragmented programs like charter schools, voucher programs, et al, then perhaps we might make some progress.


ETA: Of course, I'm assuming that improving public schools IS the goal....

[frebrd]

6. Seems like the goal is to get rid of......

(or at least marginalize) public schools. At the very least charter schools, vouchers, etc. sap resources the public schools desperately need.

:(

[mzteris]

11. Charter schools are Public schools.

Many of the "school board" run schools are not doing the job that they should. The bureaucracy and wasteful spending has bogged them down so much that many are incapable of significant change. The "teach to the test" mentality and retention of teachers who are not only ineffective but harmful, and the "but we've always done it this way" crowd has stifled any true innovation in many/most school-board run schools.

Charters offer the opportunity to implement new and innovative methodologies. They still have to adhere to the ACADEMIC STANDARDS of their state/region/local requirements - but are free to utilize different methodologies that reach students who may have never been served before.

[earthside]

39. Charter Schools are Private Schools ...

... paid for by the public, ie., the taxpayers.

THAT is what is happening to the charter schools concept.

Unfortunately, the national standards and standardized testing mania is still running rampant (with the enthusiastic support of Duncan and Obama) and is destroying the public schools.

I understand that charters maybe a way some parents see as an alternative to get out from underneath the "standards" regimentation ... but in my state of Colorado, the charters must do the standardized testing, too. So, even if they try to be 'innovative' they get sucked-up into the "one-size-fits-all" standards fad and their uniqueness is very short lived. Within just a couple of years of a charter being launched you start to hear the school's administrators spewing forth lots of talk about "the data" ... and that's the signal that the charter has become just another school doing no better and sometimes worse than the 'public' schools. Ultimately we may end-up with a charter school teaching "intelligent design" with non-union teachers, but still accessed under the standards regimen ... that we're all paying for! What a mess.

Bottom line is that the whole shebang of public/charter schools in this country is on a direct path to 21st century mediocrity that will make the mediocrity of the past look like the wonder years.

Sadly, the Obama administration is apparently doubling-down on Bush's NCLB.

I'm quite pessimistic.

[noamnety]

45. Please don't make false blanket statements

If you have a legitimate point to make, it will have more credibility without making broad sweeping misleading and/or untrue statements.

[earthside]

46. That's pretty funny ...

... what are you referring to?

Talk about making a 'broad' statement.

[noamnety]

47. false blanket statement: "Charter Schools are Private Schools ..." (nt)

[earthside]

50. What a dope.

My opinion is "false"?

Back to high school for you.

[noamnety]

51. You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts. nt.

[Hannah Bell]

57. here's another" "charter schools are public schools"

[Dinger]

40. WITHOUT The Accountability Of REAL Public Schools (nt)

[Hannah Bell]

56. charter schools are funded with public money. it doesn't make them public schools.

some are outright for-profit, some are run by for-profit management co's, & some, though putatively "non-profit" funnel money into private pockets in various ways, e.g. by "renting" space from for profit real estate corps that belong to the operators or their buddies.

[NashVegas]

20. Many Tennessee Public Schools Are Already Marginalized

Sad, but true.

It's not entirely the school's fault, even. It's the culture: people here do not value an education beyond how it looks on their resume.

[EFerrari]

21. Yep. They're taking about our school system. n/t

[mzteris]

9. charter schools ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

:sigh:

[Dinger]

42. Just Because They're Paid For With Public Money Doesn't Make Them Public (nt)

[fascisthunter]

4. great... soon poor people will have to pay for what used to be public

and how will those without the economic means be able to afford their kid's tuition? That's right, our tax dollars, again. So in essence we see the beginnings of privatization of education so only those who can afford it will have a chance in life. We need less deregulation and less blending between public and private...

More like a race to the bottom. Fools...

[mzteris]

12. Charters are FREE and PUBLIC schools!

You do not have to pay for Charter schools. They ARE PUBLIC schools.

[fascisthunter]

17. not for long if this keeps up

[mzteris]

27. why would you say that? n/t

[fascisthunter]

28. why don't you research and find out?

nice rip-off of the tax payers

[mzteris]

30. cause I haven't a clue what you're refering to.

Charters are a good thing for the educational system - Charters are the BEST thing available for many many children in this country right now.

[Hannah Bell]

58. not according to the most recent & comprehensive study i've seen. they're worse.

"On average, charter schools are not performing as well as their traditional public-school peers, according to a new study that is being called the first national assessment of these school-choice options.

The study, conducted by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes at Stanford University, compared the reading and math state achievement test scores of students in charter schools in 15 states and the District of Columbia—amounting to 70 percent of U.S. charter school students—to those of their virtual "twins" in regular schools who shared with them certain characteristics. The research found that 37 percent of charter schools posted math gains that were significantly below what students would have seen if they had enrolled in local traditional public schools.

In reading, charter students on average realized a growth that was less than their public-school counterparts but was not as statistically significant as differences in math achievement, researchers said.

"We are worried by these results," Margaret Raymond, director of CREDO and lead author of the report, Multiple Choice: Charter School Performance in 16 States, said at a news conference. "This study shows that we've got a 2-to-1 margin of bad charters to good charters."



on performance alone, besides the inevitable corruption, drain on the public schools & union power.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/on-education/2009/06/17/charter-schools-might-not-be-better.html


& the criticism by the charter advocates pretty much shows what a bunch of lying shills they are: the stanford study = gold standard. they studied 70% of the charter school population against demographically matched controls.

the shills' critique? "no two students are the same."

evidentally they don't know anything about statistics or research standards. only *their* special research, in which they apparently use methods unknown to the rest of the world, show "gains".

"The Washington-based Center for Education Reform disputed the findings, saying that they're based on uncorrelated variables, contradictory demographics, and a virtual methodology. The organization said that comparing the test scores of charter-school students to their "virtual" peers in regular public schools—students who match the charter students' demographics, English language proficiency, and participation in special education or subsidized lunch programs—is simplistic and is a fundamental flaw in the research because no two students are the same."

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/on-education/2009/06/17/charter-schools-might-not-be-better.html



& contrary to your story about racist teachers, black & latino students do worse in charters. p. 32

http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/MULTIPLE_CHOICE_CREDO.pdf

[Dinger]

43. Public In What Sense? (nt)

[LWolf]

49. No they're not.

They are private schools run with public permission and money.

They have more freedom and flexibility than any public school.

Let's be accurate. Public schools don't get to dispense with the rules and regs that charters do.

[madfloridian]

5. That has been the goal of the DLC, coming to fruition under Arne Duncan.

Thoughts on DLC, Duncan, and charter schools.

The Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) is now calling for reforms including school choice and merit pay for teachers.....America is a tale of two public school systems: one that works reasonably well, although it could certainly be better, and one that is by almost any standard a disaster," says From.

.."From argues that the public school system too often serves the interests of teachers and administrators at the expense of the students themselves. It is a "monopolistic" system that "offers a 'one-size-fits-hardly-anyone' model that strangles excellence and innovation" he says.

Characterizing charter schools as "oases of innovation," From writes, "The time has come to bring life to the rest of the desert-by introducing the same forces of choice and competition to every public school in America."

From also says Democrats should work to redefine the very notion of public education itself.

And here is more from Arne Duncan, who is pushing the end to public schools.

Stimulus to pay for more testing for teachers and students and for more charter schools.

And he only wants the best for the charter schools. How in the world is that real free market competition, Arne?

"So where we have great innovation, we need to support that, replicate that, do more of it. So we have a group of charter that are running five schools and getting great, great student achievement. We should do 10. Let me explain the process. You need to have a very rigorous front end process. You should only be picking the best of the best to open their schools. This is not let a thousand flowers bloom, because you'll just get mediocrity and you'll perpetuate the status quo, very tough funding process. And then you need both great autonomy, you have to give them the autonomy to flourish, but also real accountability."

[Frosty cupcake]

10. Just another scheme

To privatize every public good in America.

The public schools where I live (in Florida!) are head and shoulders above the private schools, which are all church-run and designed to get evolution out of the classroom. Oh, and there's the one uber-rich (and super white) private school that was founded as an end run around desegregation orders back in '73. Funny thing about that school -- when our public middle school added a pre-IB program, a number of the private school parents sent their kids to the public school for the IB program. Know what? Most of them couldn't hack it and ended up back at the easier, less-challenging private school. The public school students there, however, continued to thrive.

[mzteris]

14. Charters are NOT PRIVATE schools.

They are NOT RELIGIOUS schools.

[madfloridian]

16. Many of them are privately run and many have religious views.

Only some are public charters, so you are just using a talking point.

They do not have to abide by the regulations and rules that cover public schools.

A question...why did Walmart donate 50 million to further the cause of charter schools?

Why not support public education?

[mzteris]

26. Chsrter schools are public schools.Period.

I'm not arguing about this with you anymore - you refuse to see reason on this.

[Dinger]

44. O.K., I'll Concede This:

Charter schools are a path to privatization.

[Hannah Bell]

59. you're the one presenting "reason"? nah.

[Robb]

22. I notice you're the only one defending them

...Care to opine why?

[mzteris]

29. Because most people

realize that it's useless trying to educate people about this on here.

They have their opinions - damnit - and they're not ones to let facts get in their way.


I have a daughter who graduated from a school-board run public high-school - a "magnet" school, I graduated from a school-board run public high-school. I homeschooled my older son who now attends a school-board run public high-school - which is considered an "alternative school" in this town - (but not the kind of "alternative school" most people think of when they hear that term. My son would NOT be attending any school-board run public high-school as his out-of-the-box thinking/personality would never ever mesh with the "teach-to-test" curriculum.)

My younger son has attended two different charter schools in two different state, and will be going into 5th grade. I have numerous friends in NC whose children go to several different charter schools.

One thing people fail to realize is that Charter schools are bringing MORE students back to PUBLIC education (and thus generating more dollars for the community) - they draw from Private schools, Church/Religious schools, and from homeschoolers.


How many of these people have actually had any direct experience with charter schools?

I don't think people really understand how the system works. They THINK it is a private system. They THINK it is an elitist system. They THINK that Charters are not subject to the same educational standards/regulations as the school-board run public schools in their communities. They FORGET that some school-board run public schools in this country are actually MORE guilty of some the things they are accusing Charter schools of.

Choice, it's a good thing.

[Robb]

31. Well

One thing people fail to realize is that Charter schools are bringing MORE students back to PUBLIC education (and thus generating more dollars for the community) - they draw from Private schools, Church/Religious schools, and from homeschoolers.

I think people fail to realize this because it is not true, just wishful thinking on the part of charter proponents. This theory is not borne out by the actual numbers with respect to PPR vs. the cost of starting a new charter school. If you can find such an example, I think we'd all be interested in seeing it.

[mzteris]

33. why would you say that?

Charters DO draw from private/religious/and homeschools. I know this because I know the people whose children attend these schools. I know because I can read.

I have no idea what "PPR" means . . .

Robb - I notice that you're a new stay-at-home dad - I can guarantee you that your tune will change as your little darling gets close to school age. You're a prime candidate for homeschooling, IMO. You're definitely and "out-of-the-box" thinking type of guy. I think you'll be able to see things a little differently as your child gets older.

[Robb]

37. Right.

Sorry to take so long, lost the thread when it moved.

And sorry, PPR = per pupil revenue, how each school is reimbursed from the state for operating costs, based on enrollment. Believe me when I tell you I have examined this thoroughly. And districts do not win in this equation; the number of kids who "migrate," which is what you're talking about, from private to public settings when a charter school is introduced rarely (if ever, I've never seen it looking carefully for years) create enough PPR to offset the cost of an additional school. The district takes up the slack, and budgets are cut in the rest of the schools in the district.

I appreciate your trying to personalize this for me, but I'm already knee-deep in it, having lived through two attempts at a local group trying to foist a charter onto a small district. I thank the FSM every day the charters were not granted.

I also appreciate charter schools may have good results for individual students attending them. This does not make up for the damage caused in the rest of the district.

[mzteris]

38. think of it this way -

it's just like building another public school in the district to handle overcrowding, etc. It's STILL in the community and still being and still being used to support and educate the children IN that community.



Here is an excerpt from a study conducted by the American Federation of Teachers:

After looking at all funds (general, special revenue, federal programs, capital outlay, etc.), only
District of Columbia charter schools obtained more revenue per pupil than their host school
district. In the other 11 states, charter schools secured less revenue than host school districts,
ranging from $549 per pupil less in California to $1,841 per pupil less in Connecticut.15 . . .

The review of findings from the state chapters begins with an analysis of charter school
enrollment and the size of school districts in which they locate. These findings provide the
foundation for a discussion of issues related to economies of scale that tie into later findings
about instructional and administrative spending decisions. Enrollment differences between
charter schools and host school districts are then presented in the areas where they have financial
implications: low family income, special education and grade levels served. The student data
help answer questions about the adequacy of funding for students in high-cost programs and are
essential for understanding why school districts generally have more revenue and higher
expenditures than charter schools. An examination of the types of students enrolled in charter
schools also helps show how charter schools respond to financial incentives in the funding
systems.
The next five comparisons focus on expenditures for administration, instruction, facilities, food
service and transportation. The analysis of administration and facilities costs relates to issues of
scale and their impact on staffing and instructional spending. Staffing data are used to help assess
such financial issues as economies of scale and administrative burden, and provide crude
measures of instructional inputs such as pupil-to-teacher ratios. After presenting findings on
transportation, food service, private contributions and federal funding, differences between
charter school and host school district revenue are analyzed with respect to the findings
regarding educational need and scale.

The entire report can be found here: http://www.aft.org/topics/charters/downloads/PA.pdf
Of course this is from 2003, but should give you a better idea of the finances and where the money comes from and where it goes.

[Sub Atomic]

32. Your agenda seems pretty clear. Advocate Charter Schools and destroy the public school system.

Your own postings say as much about you as any of us need to know.

:hi:

[mzteris]

34. Charter schools ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS!

For g's sake - why can't you guys realize this simple little fact?


THEY ARE FREE AND PUBLIC SCHOOLS!

[Hannah Bell]

60. you keep repeating it, but it doesn't make it true.

1. charters don't have to follow the same rules public schools do. this is the supposed benefit of the charter - to get a pass on some of the rules - including, for example, rules that allow the school to direct 40% of its budget to "rent" space from a for-profit company.

2. charters can be for-profit: no traditional public school is run for profit.

[Freddie Stubbs]

36. President Obama supporters charter schools:

OBAMA: Sen. McCain and I actually agree on charter schools. I doubled the number of charter schools in Illinois despite some reservations from teachers unions. I think it’s important to foster competition inside the public schools. Where we disagree is on the idea that we can somehow give out vouchers as a way of securing the problems in our education system.

http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Education.htm

[Hannah Bell]

61. who the hell cares? i count that as a mark against him, showing the extent to which he's run

by back-door interests & selling bullshit as "reform".

[NashVegas]

18. You KNOW Tennessee Schools Are Bad When Even Mississippians Call It Dumbed Down

Nashville schools missed being taken over by the state, by the hair of their chinny chin chins. (NCLB)

[LWolf]

48. High expectations are not determined by whether or not

a school is private, public, or operating like a private school on public money. Expectations come in part from the people in the system, but in the main from the culture of the families the school serves.

Charter schools serve to filter out the dregs of society; the masses of the poor.

We don't need more segregation. We don't need to support the growing socio-economic divide by segregating schools by level of privilege.

We don't need charter schools, period.

Not that the U.S. Department of Education, under the "leadership" of union-buster Arne Duncan, cares about what public schools really need to best serve all students.

[Progressivism]

52. Necessity is the key factor .

It is the public schools that need to be improved ,charter schools would be simply unnecessary in my vision of the school system.

[LWolf]

53. Ask educators how to improve the system, and then enact their suggestions,

and you will see profound improvement. Educators know the dysfunctions and the needs first hand. They know what to do about them. Instead of asking us, though, we have been framed as the scapegoat, when we don't control the policies. We have been framed as the enemy.

We aren't. Nobody wants to see a thriving, vibrant public school system more than we.

Charter schools are simply a sibling of vouchers. They are designed to segregate educational opportunity, and to provide tiers instead of an equal playing field. They use public money to operate schools that are exempt from district oversight and policies: just like private schools.

We don't need charters. We need EVERY public school to have the flexibility and freedoms that charter schools have. Give EVERY public school the same opportunities, and there would certainly be no need for charters.

It's funny how you never hear that from charter school proponents. They WANT to set up schools that can filter the students entering, and dump the least privileged, the neediest, back in the rigidly authoritarian system we suffer under currently.

[footbowldude]

63. What are mothers like her supposed to do?

When I was in school I was a twice exceptional kid so I got to see much of the worst that schools have to offer. On the disabled side I knew I would always have to get bullied by teachers, students, and by bullying my mother adminstrators and teachers again, who did whatever they could to fight services (I have heard that some bigger cities pay millions on lawyers to do this). Watch Autism: the Musical sometime and you will get what I went through to a point when you Wyatts part of the movie (fyi I think after the movie was done both him and Henry, the two closet to how I was, were happy... but in a private school made for them, which it fails to mention, the producer frequently posts at Huffington fyi). Then read Freak Geeks and Asperger's Syndrome, or any number of other books, that talk about bullying of autistic spectrum students, and you will get it some more.

On the gifted side I was just as miserable. I was probably ready for high school math by the 4th grade (I had seen algebra/geometry problem and got homewhat how to figure them out, but didn't quite have all the stuff I couldn't teach myself down), but I was made to do 5th grade math... then I was made to do 5th grade math again in the next grade. If you ever want to experience true boredom, try "learning" something you already learned twice, the first time 3 years ago, then again last year. Repeating a class after acing it... that really sucks. Yet there was very little the school could do. They were working with some of the lesser functioning kids, and didn't have the money to bus me 2 miles to the local middle school for all the extra help I needed... so I was made to be bored. There was a gifted class... sortof... but it was twice a week, and only one of the other people could have compared to my giftedness. And there were my other classes, where I was only 2 or 3 years ahead, not quite the 4 or 5 in math, but even they were boring. I hate math now fyi... I have all the gifts to be really great at it... but I got bored with it long ago, so I went into the social sciences instead (probably my second worst subject, but the one that I am still at least a bit interested in.)

All options for kids like me cost money. I grew up in great poverty, so those weren't good options. Especcially considering the cheapest is generally Montessori schools (designed for both gifted and disabled students in many ways) but frequently cost 8,000+ a year. Anything else for disabled or gifted students were closer to 15,000+ a year (I have seen one school that I have worked with kids that went there that cost 30,000, and thats if your mildly disabled, if your severely disabled a lot more.) Charter schools are decryed because they will lead to the privatization of the whole industry (despite the fact that the public option won't do the same thing... unless its proven to be a better option) so those are out, no matter how many good charter schools are out there for disabled and gifted kids. Homeschooling is an option for some (go to any support forum for parents of disabled or gifted kids, and you will see many people who consider homeschooling) but for purely logistical reasons it isn't an option for most. Not to mention virtual charter schools are another evil thing that will lead to the destablization of the system, even if they help many parents out there homeschool, that otherwise couldn't. Then theres the fact that kids like me need help with socialization too (not the kind that we get at normal public schools) so homeschooling can be bad all the way around. So what other option is there? Just grin and bare it because we know that teachers always know best? That doesn't sound so good to me.

P.S. Please no utilitarianism (whats good for most is what we should always do) arguments, because thats bogus for people who never count as "most"

[LWolf]

64. What we should all be doing

is battling for a restructuring, away from the "factory" model, and towards a better model that would allow us to more individualize, rather than standardize, schools, classrooms, and instruction.

Not through charter schools that create a separate "tier," but through the system, for ALL schools.