Mysterious pro-charter study supposedly to be announced Jan. 5

[tonysam]

Interesting:

In an odd new salvo in the food fight over whether charter schools are superior to public schools, a Stanford organization that released a high-profile study last June showing charter schools performing worse than public schools is reportedly about to release a new report showing the opposite about New York City's charter schools.

Because New York is the nation's largest school district and Mayor Michael Bloomberg's school reform policies are so drastic and controversial, this report should get a lot of attention. But there are some strange things about it.

The organization CREDO -- the Center for Research on Education Outcomes -- released its nationwide study in June 2009, showing that (according to the press release on the study) "in the aggregate, students in charter schools not faring as well as students in traditional public schools." The report "found that 17 percent of charter schools reported academic gains that were significantly better than traditional public schools, while 37 percent of charter schools showed gains that were worse than their traditional public school counterparts, with 46 percent of charter schools demonstrating no significant difference."

The study was especially significant because CREDO is part of the Hoover Institution, a so-called "think tank" at Stanford University that is a strong promoter of "free-market solutions" in education, including charter schools and vouchers. So when the CREDO study showed poor results for charters, that must have stung badly.

link


Susan Ohanian links to this discussion about the study:

link

[ck4829]

1. How long before "This report can't be true, just... just... because charter schools are better"?

K&R

[tonysam]

2. They have to keep up with these until they get the results

they want, truth be damned.

[tonysam]

3. Once again we have somebody unrec'ing a thread

because it says something they don't like.

[sandnsea]

5. Your threads sure get unrec'd a lot

I think some people just go around unrec'd to stir up shit. Maybe they do it because they know it pisses you off. Maybe if you just ignored them for a while, they'd stop. Some people just like to get a rise out of others, I don't know why, they just do.

[Dinger]

38. I ALWAYS Rec tony's Threads

Just wish I could do it more than once.

[sandnsea]

4. It's not about charter vs public

It's about charter schools, charting new territory, so we can identify what works and implement into public schools.

[bread_and_roses]

8. I think it's about union busting and privitization

and nothing much to do with improving public schools.

[sandnsea]

9. If public schools didn't have 50% graduation rates

There'd be nothing to discuss. Maybe public school teachers ought to think about that instead of their unions for a while.

[MichiganVote]

10. And when unions are in charge of the curriculum, the grad requirements and so on...

your point may be taken. But since teachers have a legal right to exercise their choice to collectively bargain---guess they will continue to look out for their legal interests.

[sandnsea]

11. That's fine, except as it relates to the poster

I responded to and the OP. Which is about improving the education of students, not employee benefits.

[bread_and_roses]

14. But your only response was a slam at teachers/teachers' unions

I won't go into all the reasons I hold the position I do - if you are interested enough in Charter Schools vs public education to post in this thread, I'll do you the courtesy of assuming you've read/heard them all before, and chalk your gratuitous slam at unions up to momentary ire. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[sandnsea]

20. Uh no, I slammed teachers

Not teachers unions. Teachers unions have nothing to do with why teachers are failing or why schools need improving. And its teachers who need to deal with the reality of those problems, which is all I said to begin with.

It's so funny how many people on this board debate by making shit up and then attacking people for the fantasies in their own minds.

[MichiganVote]

15. And you can prove that the teachers unions has been detrimental to students how?

[sandnsea]

18. I didn't drag teachers unions into this debate

And I didn't slam them. I commented on improving education and the reason education needs improving, things like 50% graduation rates. Never said anything about unions.

[MichiganVote]

28. Ok, so by your tape measure all teachers are bad and should exercise more control

over graduation rates rather than spending some indeterminate amount of time considering their legal right to unionize and take part in their union activities. Good. Got it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. +1

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Maybe parents ought to step up and make their kids stay in school

It blows my mind that anyone would fault teachers when kids CHOOSE to drop out of school. What are we supposed to do? Make house calls to drag them out of bed and bring them to school every day?

[MichiganVote]

16. And THAT is the story no one wants to tell---how many parents let their kids run w/o supervision.

Where is the news media for that? Where are the news stories about the parents who let their kids run their homes and by extension, the schools. Its a huge problem.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. I want our media to report how many parents don't bother to show up for conferences

It blows my mind every damn year. How many brain cells does an adult lack to not want to come to school and meet their child's teacher? Or even call them on the phone? Or answer the phone when the school calls?? Why do we have to use our cell phones to call parents???

It doesn't matter what district it is, whether it is low income or middle class or wealthy - urban, suburban or rural - all have parents who refuse to get involved.

And just once I'd like to see a story in my local paper or on my local news reporting the number of parents who don't show up for conferences.

[MichiganVote]

27. A test score and a grade my dear...that's what child learning has been reduced to.

[tonysam]

35. It's worse than that.

Kids themselves are reduced to "data."

[MichiganVote]

40. Yes that is true.

[sandnsea]

19. Oh I know, teachers are perfect

It's everybody elses fault. I've heard it on this board for years.

[FBaggins]

22. They aren't "perfect".

In fact they are often far from that.

But that doesn't absolve a parent of his/her responsibility to the student.

[FBaggins]

21. You're right. Education is primarily the parents' responsibility.

They may essentially "subcontract" out most of the labor to the county (i.e., public schools), but that doesn't remove ANY of their primary responsibility.

This isn't an excuse for "failing schools" - but parents have no excuse for not being heavily involved in their kids' education. They certainly can't complain that they aren't getting what they expect from the schools if they haven't put in some effort themselves.

The best teachers in the world will have a tough time raising Johnny's educational achievement if mom and dad don't read at home... and show that Johnny's education is unimportant by not participating in homework review... conferences... etc.


Every child is "homeschooled". The question is what they're learning.

[montanto]

23. If teachers had anything to do with graduation rates,

you'd be right. But since they don't, you are wrong. Imagine blaming cops for drunk driving accidents. Yeah, if every drunk driver was arrested before causing an accident, that would be great. But since there aren't enough cops to assure that that happens, you can hardly carpet-blame the cops on duty for the failure of the system to apprehend all guilty parties. Not to mention that cops have nothing whatever to do with who gets drunk, who choses to drive impaired, etc. Teachers are not in charge of student's decision to attend or to drop out. Teachers are not in charge of bad parenting, gang activity, teen pregnancy, financial pressure, drugs, sex, immigration, English fluency at intake, cars, public transportation, drunken abusive parents, deaths in student's family, iPods, Facebook, World of Warcraft, rock bands, etc. When, God-for-fucking-bid, teachers are ever in charge of those things, feel free to blame them.

[FBaggins]

24. Teachers aren't the be-all-end-all of dropout rates

But they most certainly are well beyond they "have nothing to do with" line.

[montanto]

25. Feel free to explain

how teachers cause dropouts. Really, do. I would love to improve my practice. I had at least two students drop out last semester, and I would love to hear how I caused that, so I can do something about it before it happens again. Yes, last semester I was thinking a lot about the union and my protections therein. Is that what caused them to drop out?

[FBaggins]

26. How did the unions get added in to this?

And when did it become about you personally?

I merely corrected the inaccurate assumption that they have NOTHING to do with dropout rates.

90% (or higher) of a student's interaction with our education system is with classroom teachers. We can't assume that they have NOTHING to do with students' impression of school as a whole.

The bulk of my love for my school years is to the credit of some truly fine teachers. But it's somehow impossible to assume that some who hate school had bad teachers? The fact that there are ANY bad teachers out there means that YOU must be a bad teacher?

[montanto]

30. *sigh*

My original response was to a comment up-thread that says that teachers pay too much attention to what the union is doing, and that if teachers don't worry about what the union is up to the dropout rate might not be 50%. To which I assert that teachers do not cause dropouts. To which you assert that teachers have something to do with the dropout rate. To which I ask for an explanation and include the fact that some of my students dropped out last semester and that I was concerned with what the union was up to during the very period during which some of my students dropped out. Am I the cause of those dropouts? The post that I am replying to assumes that teachers paying attention to union issues causes a 50% dropout rate. I am asserting that teachers do not cause dropouts. Now, I may not have taken my own advice to "never say never," I'm sure in the grand scheme of things that a teacher somewhere has caused a dropout at some time; however, in general, teachers do not cause dropouts. The kids that dropped out on me last semester: one is a gangster and somehow his gang activities didn't include academics, the other was a girl who is very popular in her neighborhood if you know what I mean, and for whom adult concerns were more important that her schoolwork, if you know what I mean. How did I cause these dropouts? The only reason that I am making this about me is that a. I am a teacher who had b. two students drop out last semester while c. paying attention to the union and my interests which it protects, and I am thinking, how did I, through my sense of self preservation and personal interest cause these dropouts? The answer is, as I have already asserted, I did not.

So, we are all up to speed now. I'm ready to hear how teachers cause a 50% dropout rate. Or any statistically significant dropout rate for that matter.

[FBaggins]

32. This isn't a binary situation.

Disagreement on one of you points does not mean that I agree with anything else that was posted in response to something ELSE you said.

You claimed that teachers don't play a role in dropout rates. They do... So you were wrong.

That doesn't mean that EVERY (or even most) dropouts are because of one or more teachers... That's a strawman.

The corrolary helps to prove the point. There are untold tens of thousands of students who STAY in school because of one or
more great teachers. OF COURSE they impact dropout rates.

[tonysam]

36. What in God's name does the union have ANYTHING to do

with teachers' attention and dropouts? This is fucking crazy.

People who get on this board spouting off nonsense to people who have taught or are currently teachers really need to go elsewhere. They haven't a CLUE as to what goes on in education.

[MichiganVote]

29. So if I understand you correctly, when a customer leaves a bank and takes all their money with them,

its the fault or some indeterminate fault of the tellers. Could it be lousy managers? Could it be the bank policies? Nah, people never leave banks because of policies or bad managers do they? Maybe the bank is unsound. It lacks the money to pay for its investments. If that were true, perhaps the tellers could do something to manage the bank better. But then again, what do they know, they are just bank tellers aren't they?

Perhaps another bank offers a better return on the money people put in the bank. Is that something tellers have any control over?

So what to do. Pay the tellers less to save money for the managers who are paid more then increase the tellers duties or hours and argue the tellers are actually paid more for flexible work hours. Increase the educational requirements for them to be a teller while reducing the requirements for the newbies who are then paid even less to do more for the managers who always make more. For doing less to bring in customers.

Yup. That's what happens but its not what works.

[FBaggins]

31. Nope... But I never said that, did I?

In this example I'm the one replying to someone claiming that tellers
never cause customers to leave.

Yes, most/all of your examples ALSO contribute, but tellers re the face of the bank. They most certainly matter for good or Ill.

[MichiganVote]

33. Teachers certainly do matter. On that we agree. As to the "face" of the organization,

it isn't a "face" that maintains a student's progress. Its work on the part of the teacher and on the part of the student. I maintain that what most people do not want to accept is that the student who drops out has usually worked up to that level and no further despite whatever "face" is provided by a teacher.

Teachers have far less control over education than most people think. To assert that they matter for good or ill is hardly the same as saying they are responsible for a kid who opts to drop out of school.

Perhaps the problem is that teachers or tellers should not be the "face" that is most often cited in the game. Education is complicated. Nobody likes it that way but with every regulation it gets more complicated, not less.

[tonysam]

34. Teachers have almost NO control.

Public school districts are run from the top down like the military--and teachers better implement whatever comes up on high or risk being dismissed or fired.

The reality is far different than the nonsense about having all kinds of control and decision-making taught in education programs.

[FBaggins]

37. "Control" no... but plenty of influence.

It's a shame that you have such a low opinion of the role of teachers.

Probably why they aren't paid enough. Even they don't think they make a difference any more.

:-(

[MichiganVote]

39. "Plenty of influence" over what exactly?

Teachers have no control over home influences arguably the most important influence over a child's life.

Teachers have no control over curriculum. They do not choose it.

Teachers have no control over district disciplinary procedures.

Teachers have no control over schedules for themselves or for the students.

Teachers have no control over district, state or federal testing.

Teachers have no control over graduation requirements.

Teachers have no control over anything other than how they teach a unit and even that is subject to the demands of the building administrator who often has less experience than the teacher.

Teachers can inspire students to perform for the love of learning. Good. Great. That does not equate to influence when a student has closed his mind or heart to it.

[FBaggins]

41. Here's a question for you

When I say they DON'T have "control" but they do have "influence"... why do you then give a long list of things they don't CONTROL???

As I said before. It's a sad shame that some teachers feel they have so little impact on the hearts and minds of the kids they teach. Why get into the profession at all if that's the case?

That does not equate to influence when a student has closed his mind or heart to it.

That would be a valid point if I were saying that teachers are the ONLY thing that influence graduation/dropout rates. I never said that. I merely corrected the mistaken impression that they have nothing at all to do with it.

[MichiganVote]

42. You've missed some memo's. "Influence over hearts and minds" don't count no more.

The ONLY thing that matters anymore are test scores. That's it. A score on a computerized test sheet. Fill in the blanks.

That's it. That is all that counts anymore. That is all the money boys and girls in Washington and at the state levels have TOLD teachers that count. This is not a teacher choice. This is a government choice. This is a we'll give you less money each year to do more and more for nothing. Otherwise known as a very bad John.

Some the romaticizing and get with the reality. Test scores = teaching jobs. The window for that "influencing the hearts and minds" stuff has been gono for the last 20 years. NCLB was almost the final nail in the coffin until the new and improved Jello called, Race To The Top came along. Its just another nail.

Here's the reality. Politicians do not care about the education of your kids or grandkids. They care about money. More money at the top = more power.

[FBaggins]

43. An interesting and understandable rant...

...but doesn't come close to addressing the issue. It's a litany of all the things you don't like about what's changed over the years.

I don't like most of them either... but it doesn't mean that kids don't spend a large portion of their waking hours in our classrooms. Teachers have a great deal of influence.

Let me repeat what I said earlier. There are tens... perhaps hundreds of thousands of kids who are influenced for life every year by one or more great teachers. Teachers sacrificing the ability to make a decent living to give our kids a fighting chance. Teachers who make a real difference. Yes, that includes kids who would never have graduated HS who go on to college and make something lasting of their own lives... instead of dropping out.

If you don't believe that teachers can screw up a kid... then you don't believe the above. And that's just sad.

[madrchsod]

6. i`ve read enough on my own and from my fellow du`ers that...

there are many ways to rig the numbers to make charter schools the answer.

i`m no huge fan of public education since the leave every child behind act but i do know charters are not the answer.

[tonysam]

7. All one has to do is look who is peddling them, and

the political philosophy underlying them to know they are a bunch of shit.

There are problems in public ed, but they aren't the ones the "reformers" are interested in.