Thomas Paine who?

[white_wolf]

After reading about how Jefferson is being removed from Texas text books and possible many others I was thinking that this has happened before. Ir seems to me that Paine was ignored because he was so liberal even for his time and conservatives didn't want him talked about. When I was in high school I don't remember ever hearing anything about Thomas Paine. I didn't really start learning about him till I started college a couple of years ago. Anyway I was just wondering if anyone else noticed this or did I just not pay attention in history class? That's also a possibility.

[indypaul]

1. Do you recall

from "The Crisis" "These are the times that try men's souls"?
U.S. History 10th grade.

[white_wolf]

4. I do

Actually I do. Like I said its possible I just forget, but for the life of me I honestly to remember hearing much about Thomas Paine's ideas. I heard a lot about the other Founders. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention. Anyway sorry if this was a waste of a post.

[pocoloco]

2. Hero of the Revolution ......

until the time he wrote "The Age of Reason".

[RKP5637]

3. It has been many decades now, but all I recall in HS and grade school was

learning about why American was so great, and lots of dates to remember. It wasn't until I got into college that I learned dissenting points of view and more liberal attitudes, that was in the 60's.

[Smarmie Doofus]

5. He was turned into a caricature so people wouldn't.......

... delve. What they would find if they delved is that the USA Paine envisioned is not the USA we have.

Same could be said of Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin. Non--Christian rationalists and/or agnostics.

So,we know that GW chopped down the cherry tree ( which is probably mythology anyway) but we know nothing about the man's studious, calculated indifference to religion. ( Nothing from *school* that is.)

There's a reason for that. Huge intellectual regression post-1800 somewhat analogous to the middle ages in Europe.

A Dark Age, if you will. We're still in it, if you ask me. "Moral Minority" by Brooke Allen is pretty good treatment of this subject.

[white_wolf]

6. I think

you said what I meant allot better than I did. I heard a little about Paine's writing but not anything at all about his ideas or goals for America. Same with the other Founders and now their cutting Jefferson out completely. I love how Conservatives who pride themselves on tradition and supposedly looking to the Founder's for inspiration can just get out one of the most important whenever it suits them.

[Smarmie Doofus]

9. There are *many* traditions, seems to me.

>>>>>>I love how Conservatives who pride themselves on tradition and supposedly looking to the Founder's for inspiration can just get out one of the most important whenever it suits them.>>>>>>

The Plymouth Pilgrims were *one* tradition. A freakish minority of a minority in England with a short-lived period of domination on one corner of this continent in colonial days.

They had NOTHING to do with "The Founders", i.e. Tom, Ben and the Gang. Morally, ethically, philosophically, politically and..... especially... religiously.

As a country, we are influenced by the tradition of the founders on some levels (thankfully)..... and by the Puritans on others.

[RKP5637]

7. Very well put! What I've always found distressing is many in the US will

go through life believing and reinforcing what they possibly learned in early education (myths, falsehoods, etc.) because they have never had a chance to attend higher education or to have various life experiences that have exposed them to different and conflicting points of view.

Hence, we end up in this mess IMO that we have in this country today, as you said, "A Dark Age." And with the manipulative and powerful propaganda today, a diminishing focus on education, and those proud to be ignorant and uneducated, it becomes possibly a dismal future in trying to dig out of "A Dark Age."

Hence, a portion of the population is ripe for manipulative control.

[Smarmie Doofus]

10. Definitely something wrong with how we teach* history* in particular..

>>>>>And with the manipulative and powerful propaganda today, a diminishing focus on education, and those proud to be ignorant and uneducated, it becomes possibly a dismal future in trying to dig out of "A Dark Age.">>>>>>

And it would be crazy to say that our historical illiteracy is unrelated to our dysfunctional, immature, even *primitive* socioeconomic order.

"They want us dumb" might be a bit simplistic. But it can't be completely coincidental that most kids graduate high school not knowing that - for instance - the constitution is a *secular* document inspired by Enlightenment rationalism and not a *religious* one inspired by churches.

Schools want to avoid controversy. But you can't teach History that way. If you try.... then it's not "History".

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Harriet Tubman who? Phyllis Wheatley who? WEB Debois who?

Same thing with African American history. My first year teaching was in an all African American school. I had to teach myself AA history on the weekends so I could teach my kids. I was embarrassed for the schools I had attended. I had assumed I was well educated. And I was but for this portion of history left out of our curriculum.

[FBaggins]

11. Paine remains in the TX curriculum (as does Jefferson)

The error in TX is not in removing the founding fathers... it's in "creatively" describing who they were and what they stood for.

Jefferson wasn't removed from the textbooks, he was removed from a list of philosophers who influenced the european enlightenment.

Paine is listed in their 8th grade US History standards.


As always... covering these individuals correctly is up to a good teacher.

[white_wolf]

13. Are you sure?

I could be misinterpreting the article but here is the quote from the top of the article - Thomas Jefferson no longer included among writers influencing the nation’s intellectual origins. Here is the link for it: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts1253

[FBaggins]

14. Yes

Your cited article says just what I did.

Most consider the "nation's intellectual origins" to include the enlightenment. Conservatives don't agree/understand this... But more importantly don't recognize the same Jeffersonian connection- so he was removed from that list... But not from the curriculum overall. A couple people have said that he's mentioned more often than anyone but Washington.

[mbperrin]

16. Here's the actual Texas Education list of changes. Be sure to look

at all 9 pages.

http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/teks/social/HistoricalFiguresclustersOct2009.pdf


Paine will appear in only the 8th grade US History.

[FBaggins]

17. I don't understand...

...isn't 8th grade what I said?

I note that Jefferson is covered in 5th, 8th, World History, and US Govt.

[mbperrin]

18. Just thought you might like the whole list; sorry if the only interest

was in Paine and Jefferson.

Thought it was interesting that Albert Einstein, Eugene Debs, Robert La Follette, and Mother Theresa were out, among others.

[FBaggins]

19. Sorry.

It's no problem... I just assumed that your post was a correction/disagreement.

Thanks for the link.

[Catshrink]

20. OMG

Facts? Too confusing.

:hi:

[Catshrink]

12. The new curriculum

More education cartoons here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7963604

[FBaggins]

15. +1

n/t