Firing Is Not Change!

[cjbgreen]

According to Valerie Strauss of the Washington Post, the Obama administration is not learning any lessons from Shirley Strauss. http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/07/30-8 Sadly, the Race to the Top still involves firing principals who are successful and not examining the context of their success. Why does this administration sacrifice so much to garner the approval of Republicans and big business?

[stray cat]

1. firing is by definition change

[Catshrink]

3. Wow, that was informative

and predictable.

[Catshrink]

2. It's one-size-fits-all thinking

It's applied to districts, schools, administrators, teachers, and students. It treats a district in a low SES community the same as one in a wealthy suburb. It treats a top notch principal whose school shows improvement and growth but doesn't make AYP the same as one who sits on her ass in a high performing district and let's the rest of the school carry her. It treats a teacher who works hundreds of extra hours a year tutoring her sped or low SES kids and thousands out of her own pocket the same as one who teaches 5 AP classes with 10 self-motivated, high-achieving kids. It treats the child who had no exposure to books and reading or math before kindergarten the same as one whose parents are avid readers, pay for preschool and enrichment activities, and enters school reading at a 3rd grade level.

That's what's wrong with the Duncan approach. WTF is wrong with Obama? Who is the Rasputin whispering in his ear?

[mopinko]

4. i disagree strongly with that statement.

but i guess we will see next school year what happens to those bottom 5% of schools that are targeted. from his remarks at the national press club the other day it sound to me like they are working with folks at the local level first. they do not step in until those processes have expended themselves.
i strongly recommend the npc speech, with the qa, if you can watch it with an open mind.
http://press.org/news-multimedia/videos/cspan/294785-1

[YvonneCa]

5. What you are missing is that they don't 'work with'...

...folks at the local level first, they set the tone...WITH POLICY. That tone HAS BEEN SET. Local schools...because they rightly want to prevent takeover tactics...will be the ones to act. They already are...that's why you see firings, teachers being harrassed, etc. This is the result of local school districts feeling the pressure. And it's being taken out on teachers...both good ones and bad ones.

[mopinko]

11. there is no reason for any kind of widespread panic

about takeovers. they are talking about the lowest achieving 5% of schools. those people ought to panic. and even so, they will get a couple years of increased assistance and an orderly process of improvements before anybody gets the axe. local folks are the ones writing the improvement plans for these schools. part of the application process.
and yes, they are very upfront that a big part of the purpose of rttt is to make local school districts and state doe's get their shit together. you have to be well on your way just to get to step one. leveraging change is the point.

[Catshrink]

12. Gotta link?

Where's your proof?

[mopinko]

19. i gave you a link. it's in the speech.

other than that all i ever claimed to be was a concerned and aware parent from arne's home town.

[YvonneCa]

15. I have been working for change in education since...

...1984. I agree with the goals. I just think RTTT is flawed.

As to PANIC... I have worked in a Title I district longer than I care to remember...so I have seen with my own eyes what the effect of NCLB and RTTT is. Some people DO panic and...when they do...they look out for themselves, not always the children or the teachers. There are unintended consequences to Obama's policy. I just want him to realize that and prevent 'collateral damage'.

[Hannah Bell]

20. i can't stand it any more. what crap.

[Catshrink]

6. You live in a dream world.

And I have no idea what statement you're referring to. But, if you really think they're working with people at the local level first, maybe you should look into the Central Falls SD.

What Arne really needs to do is buy me some chairs for my classroom.

[mopinko]

13. if your world is full of this sort of absolute distrust

i have to say that i don't think you are living in the actual real universe as it exists. i cop to being a bit of a dreamer, and take most people at face value. still a hope dope, i am. i have been disappointed. i have also seen amazing things actually come to pass. they all started with hope and trust. i get to be there because i can do that.
as obama has said- cynicism is a sorry sort of wisdom. i say you can't really build anything on it. i know of nothing big that was built on cynicism and distrust.

i sincerely ask that folks in this forum watch the video. it is an hour long. please find the time. try to take what is being said at face value, even just for that hour. if for no other reason that this is what is for as long as obama is president. at least try to know your enemy, if that is how you feel. then lets talk some more.

http://press.org/news-multimedia/videos/cspan/294785-1

[Catshrink]

14. Your world is based on misinformation or lack of information

and certainly lack of experience as an educator. A lot changes once you have responsibility for a classroom full of kids.

I see Arne's grand scam doing nothing to alleviate the stressful conditions public school teachers face and doing plenty to increase anxiety and hostility. I see myself and my colleagues facing class sizes of 40 kids with up to 20 of those special education students.

Do you have any clue about the extra amount of work that entails? Just keeping 20 IEPs straight is difficult enough - this student has a reading disability, that one a math, that one gets extra time on tests, that one can use notes on tests, that one can't. Then there is the huge number of modifications in lessons, assignments, and assessments that need to be made. And the meetings! IEP after IEP, the case managers interrupting classes to discuss ONE student's issues at the expense of the other students.

He is doing nothing that helps and only creating harm.

[YvonneCa]

16. C'mon. This is pretty 'over-the-top'...

...stuff:

If your world is full of this sort of absolute distrust i have to say that i don't think you are living in the actual real universe as it exists.

Your opinion, to which you are entitled.


i cop to being a bit of a dreamer, and take most people at face value. still a hope dope, i am. i have been disappointed. i have also seen amazing things actually come to pass. they all started with hope and trust.

So am I and I agree.

i get to be there because i can do that. as obama has said- cynicism is a sorry sort of wisdom. i say you can't really build anything on it. i know of nothing big that was built on cynicism and distrust.

Good for you...some of us hopeful folks are not 'there.' Hoping to improve Obama's education policy through debate so that it is successful and avoid pitfalls that could lead to failure is not cynicism. It is because some of us DO trust Obama's motivation and intelligence and ability that we appeal to him to hear us.

i sincerely ask that folks in this forum watch the video. it is an hour long. please find the time. try to take what is being said at face value, even just for that hour. if for no other reason that this is what is for as long as obama is president.

I did watch the speech yesterday. I thought it was excellent. I agree with his goals and much of his policy. I also regularly watch Secretary Duncan's events. It is a priority for me. As to "this is what is', I think you are wrong. NCLB (now ESEA again) has not yet been re-authorized. I think it can be made even better AND that President Obama can listen to positive criticism and avoid pitfalls.


at least try to know your enemy, if that is how you feel. then lets talk some more.

ENEMY? Where does that come from? How does debate on policy create an enemy? I don't know who/what you are referring to here..

[Catshrink]

17. Check out the list of mods for this forum.

[cjbgreen]

23. This is not about enemies! This is about what works!

I appreciate your providing the link, and I believe that there are many sincere people who think the strategy works because there are many ways the public school system fails that need correction. However if you follow this form of reform and even follow the tenure of Michelle Rhee I think you will discover that the press (remember who owns the press, not the people, and follow the editor's) you may find that there are some special interests who have a vested interest in privatizing schools.

[cjbgreen]

7. It Doesn't Work

Seriously look at the data, I don't mean one school that is successful, I mean all of the schools where this strategy is in place and compare the data on students and disaggregate the data. I do not think educators who are not committed to all children making progress should be in our public school system, but seriously, there are some students who for any number of reasons may not make progress in a 9 month block of time. Maybe the student or family is struggling with a foreclosure, health care, hunger etc. Perhaps the student does have an undiagnosed or misdiagnosed disability. This doesn't mean the student's teacher gives up. But firing, do we fire doctors who can't diagnose an illness, lawyers who loose cases. And please don't use the free market system with me because it is non existent.

[mopinko]

9. got a link to all that data? i would love to look it over.

and btw, i was interested to hear arne talk, dismissively i thought, about 'bubble tests'. he also went out of his way to make the point that when a school starts to really turn around and get focused, the test scores will fall. just the fallout of change. he talked about making sure that those schools 'got cover' from up the chain of command.

[Catshrink]

10. Why do you insist that others do your research for you?

You spout all kinds of crap on a regular basis with nothing to back it up except your own self-rarified opinion. Let's start seeing some data from you for a change.

[YvonneCa]

18. Here are a couple of examples that...

...describe the problem:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/dc-schools/were-some-dc-teacher-dismissal.html

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/debonis/2010/07/wtu_says_dcps_fired_far_fewer.html?hpid=newswell


Edited to add: If anyone thinks DC is the only place where the data is messed up and misused they are SO, so wrong. :(

[txlibdem]

26. Learning should be the student's responsibility

When did the system become wrapped around the idea that it is the teacher's sole responsibility to make sure Jimmy learns. The student ought to understand that it is their future at stake. They won't see that teacher again for the rest of their life so twisting the system so the teacher is solely responsible is just as wrong as having absolutely no oversight of teachers at all.

Show kids a video interviewing people who work in fast food restaurants, meat packing plants, etc., to let them know where people with no or little education end up. Hopefully they will admit candidly that they didn't apply themselves in school and life could have been different if they'd worked just a little harder.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Well if they really are working with folks at the local level,

(which I doubt) do you think I could get some pencils? That's really all I want from the feds at this point. I haven't had a classroom supply budget in years. So if the president really wanted to help, he could start with pencils. I'm tired of buying them myself.

[cjbgreen]

22. Resources on change and why RTTT is harmful

For those of you who think Race to the Top is the right strategy or worse case scenario benign, please consider the former Assistant Secretary of Education to George Bush,Diane Ravitch's opinion regarding Race to the Top. She believes the strategy is wrong and harmful. At one time during her distinguished career, she was an advocate of for charter schools but has changed her position based on research. I find Arne discounting the concerns of respected educators and labeling the opposition as resistant to change a cliche and an excuse that is emblematic of poorly conceived change. Regarding Gates belief that after three years professionals don't change, there is ample research that indicates this is not true and I doubt if Gates would select a lawyer or doctor with only three years experience.
Here is a link to Ravitch who was interviewed on todays episode of Democracy Now.
http://www.aolnews.com/brooklyn-school/article/opinion-dont-close-failing-schools-fix-them/19534446

Also for those skeptics or sincere advocates of Arne's strategy please review the research on effective schools and reform, Hall and Hord, Larry Lezotte, Ron Edmunds. Guskey etc.
And also consider the research on brain-based learning which describes the physiological response to fear and how and why fear interferes with learning and think about these threats to schools. And FYI, layoffs of teachers are occurring across the country because in part because money is being re-directed to Charter Schools which are not unionized.

[mopinko]

24. layoffs are occurring because state and local governments

are broke. doesn't have a damn thing to do with charter schools.

[Catshrink]

25. You're batting 1000 - wrong again

money that would go to public schools is diverted to charters - that includes of course the money to build them, etc.

[MichiganVote]

21. Since when does an "open mind" consist of agreement with this misadministration

in regard to..uh..

Healthcare
Iraq
Afghanistan
Gitmo
Education
Bailouts
Economics
Tax breaks
Tax bailouts
Oil spills

To charge that people do not have an open mind because they raise rational items to discuss or disagree is a lame attempt to manipulate the very persons you say you want to learn something. Maybe you need to learn something from others instead of blocking discussion by trying out the whole bogus "open mind" BS.

Just sayin'