Mentally ill children

[proud2BlibKansan]

The only mention on DU of kids with mental illnesses is when someone posts a thread accusing us of over medicating them. That is most likely true for SOME kids, but, IMO, there is a much larger group of kids who are suffering and not being treated or being treated incorrectly.

I'm not a psychiatrist and I don't play one on TV either, so I don't want to start diagnosing kids.

But these kids, critically ill children, are in our schools and our hands are tied. There is little or nothing we can do to help them. Educating them is nearly impossible. And they are disrupting the education of the kids they are in class with.

For each of the last 5 or 6 years, my classroom has been disrupted, destroyed, threatened, monopolized, by a child who is mentally ill. I'm not talking about kids with ADD. Or kids who are depressed. Or kids with various forms of autism. I'm talking about kids who are delusional, violent, critically ill.

One of my former students killed himself a couple years ago. He was 11. I had him in 1st and 2nd grade. I'll never forget (it haunts me now) his father at one meeting after another and his gruff voice (with a hint of pride) exclaiming "Ain't nuthin wrong with my boy!" Well, Dad, you didn't listen to us and your boy is now dead. We tried to tell you he needed help. We tried to tell you that 7 year olds shouldn't announce in class that they were going to kill themselves. We tried to tell you this was more than just an ornery little boy acting out. But you were in denial. When he was violent at school and hurt his classmates, you beat the shit out of him at home. Obviously that didn't help. We said take him to the doctor, get an evaluation, find a counselor. But for some reason I will never understand, you believed he would grow out of his rage and settle down.

The mentally ill student I had who was the worst was violent and extremely delusional. He came to school heavily medicated. Slept. Then he woke up, meds had worn off or were probably not the correct dosage or type in the first place, and went crazy. Assaulted the other kids because they were "gay" or "grabbed my penis" or "was talking smack to me on the bus" (This was directed to a child who did not ride the bus.) Ran out of class, raced in the halls yelling "I HATE THIS FUCKING SCHOOL" and "MY MOM IS GOING TO SUE YOU". So not only one class but an entire school was terrorized by this child.

'Experts' from all over came and observed this child. Some of them were assaulted. His parents believe he is autistic so the autism pros spent days watching him and logging his behavior. The last one left the classroom laughing. When he called the father to tell him this is not any kind of autism he has ever seen, the father hung up on him. Then one evening there was a local story on the news about a bullying incident at a school. Next day, the kid decided he was being bullied. Drew pictures of how he was going to hurt the kids who bullied him. Used up an entire red crayon. Then punched a hole in the wall that afternoon.

Interestingly enough, the violent kids don't ever assault me. I have watched them attack classmates and the principal. But never once have I been hit. My 'secret' is that as soon as they come towards me, I pull out my cell phone and tell them if I get hit I call the cops. That is usually followed by a stream of "YOU CAN'T ARREST ME!" or "MY MOM WILL SUE YOU" or a variety of other crazy statements, but I end up not being hit. In fact, that's the one consistent fact in all the experiences I have had as the teacher of a mentally ill child. I say "911" and they don't hit me.

So now the deformers want to pay me for raising kids' test scores. They have no ideas for dealing with children who are terrorizing my classroom, but they are promising me barrels of cash for increasing what they call achievement.

I used to get frustrated reading this deformer nonsense. Now I just laugh.

Every single person who supports this deform agenda needs to spend some time in a classroom with a mentally ill child. At the rate they are increasing, it shouldn't be too hard to find one.

[ck4829]

1. Ugh, these kids are nothing but statistics to these "reform" folks

Some of these kids sound like actually they have oppositional defiant disorder and others are just plain psychotic. They'll be able to live normal lives if they get treatment and medication ASAP.

Having these experts and some of these parents trying to get their kids diagnosed with the first disorder they see on TV or hear about from someone else is not going to help them, it's going to ruin them for life.

"Improving test scores", why don't we just start referring to kids by their test scores instead?

[BrklynLiberal]

2. Interesting discussion on Democracy Now this AM. Dr says that most of the ADD and other "problems"

with children in school today are a result of societal problems and family dysfunction....and over medicating the kids is not the cure.

Video and Transcript:
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/24/dr_gabor_mat_on_adhd_bullying

Dr. Gabor Maté on ADHD, Bullying and the Destruction of American Childhood

A spike in diagnoses of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and other mental disorders has fueled an unprecedented reliance on pharmaceutical medications to treat children, with long-term effects that remain unknown. We speak with Canadian physician and best-selling author, Dr. Gabor Maté. He argues that these responses are treating surface symptoms as causes while ignoring deeper roots. Dr. Maté says children are in fact reacting to the broader collapse of the nurturing conditions needed for their healthy development.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. My OP is not about kids with ADD

Kids with ADD aren't delusional. And we have had decades of success treating kids with stimulant meds. I will never jump on the no meds for kids bandwagon.

I am talking about kids who are seriously mentally ill and their effect on their classmates.

[bobbolink]

4. This whole situation is so difficult from all angles!

Obviously, I sympathize with the teachers.

I also know that there is a very BAD situation of over-medication, and totally WRONG treatment.

I just don't think that any of us can judge any of this from a distance.

Sadly, it is something that just isn't a priority in this society, and THAT is what needs to change.

That, and getting the profit motive OUT of "treatment"!

Thank you for posting this, and my heart goes out to you! :hug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. Lots of incorrect medicating and treatment going on

The doctors rarely communicate with the school anymore. Used to be - kid on meds and the doctor would call the school once a month or ask us to fill out a behavior scale. That happens only rarely now.

[Starry Messenger]

6. I have friends with a child who is severely mentally ill.

My heart goes out to them, but they are bitterly disappointed with the way teachers and schools work with their child. I bite my tongue, but I wonder how they expect the public school system to deal with a child that has to be isolated from her younger sibling because she has threatened him. She has episodes of super-strength where she becomes very dangerous. She is in and out of institutions. There are very few resources at all for them and I feel bad, but there is no way she can just be "accommodated".

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. IMO, these kids don't even belong in school

They need to be in a hospital. And then a special school for kids with mental illnesses. They are a danger to the other kids. No way would I want my own kid in class with a seriously mentally ill child. No way.

[Starry Messenger]

8. They do hospitalize her, but then their insurance runs out.

It's all one big ugly system here in the free market. :( They are trying to work with other parents to set up a day school for kids with these severe problems. There's no way a public school can do what they need. Before the child's diagnosis they were forced to keep sending their kid to school because of the laws here, so it's been a nightmare for everyone involved.

[Tansy_Gold]

9. My son's kindergarten class had one of these kids

I've probably told the story here before, so I won't bore you with all the details, but the kid was there because his adoptive parents wanted a "normal" kindergarten for him because they knew he would never be able to be even remotely mainstreamed. And the principal at the time -- he now has a school named after him! -- encouraged this.

But the kid was violent and out of control and disrupted the entire class for a full year. Did he get anything out of it? No, nothing. He was incapable. But the other 30 or so kids were deprived of THEIR normal kindergarten, and it set a lot of them back.

I cannot begin to understand the heartbreak parents feel when they recognize their child is not going to be just like all the other kids, but neither can I understand how they can be in such denial that they would put their child and others at risk of serious harm.

But then again, mental illness still carries such a stigma that we can't have a rational dialogue about it. Not in kids, not in young people, not in old people. I guess we think if we ignore it it'll go away????



TG

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. This year at my school

we have 5 kids like this. FIVE. One is in kindergarten and it's just as you describe - a horrible experience for the other kids.

As a teacher, it's infuriating watching this.

[southerncrone]

33. I agree, proud2BlibKansan.

They need to be in an appropriate HOSPITAL environment w/people who can help them & give them what they need. There is no way we teachers can ever even begin to "deal" w/them while juggling 25-30 other students & the other massive demands placed on us today. And, yes, there are more every year. One in a class makes it impossible, but more than one is simply a nightmare for everyone. My experience has been that administration does nothing when we ask for help....they are too fearful of parents & don't want to have any "confrontation" w/parents. So, teachers are left to "just deal w/it" (i.e. abandoned). I have had 4 students who went to mental hospitals & had no idea where they had been when they returned.....I found out "by accident" from outside sources. It makes me wonder how many I DON'T know about. That is a law that needs to be changed for the safety of the many (the rest of kids & faculty).

About 4 yrs ago, I joked w/a colleague that one day soon we would have one school per county that was the "normal" school & the rest would be "alternative" schools ......just the opposite of what we have now. I don't JOKE about that now.....I see it as an absolute reality in the next decade.

As long as TPTB continue to focus on "fixing" teachers, instead of accepting that we have a societal cesspool that breeds mental illness daily.....drug abuse; improper material available to kids b/4 they are mature enough to process; the absentee parents; physical, emotional, sexual & psychological abuse in families.....(the list is extensive); this problem will just continue to grow.
:cry:

[MichiganVote]

10. Like you, I've been around education and these kids for a long time.

When I was growing up, anybody who had a crummy homelife,(and there were a lot of us) was still usually able to cope at school. Hence the myth that kids feel safer in school and respect its structure as a better trade off than the crazy home life.

That is no longer true. Kids who are maladjusted for one reason or another hear their parents, the neighbors, society, the press, hell even the President of the United States bad mouth school authority. And I'm not talking about bad school authority folks I'm talking about an average and age appropriate demand for civilized behavior.

I work with the mentally ill kids. And I work with the kids who are not mentally ill but who are socially maladjusted. I know these kids and I know the difference between them, when there is a difference. I 'get' how the family system works when it works at all.

I'm here to tell you DU, we are breeding these kids at a faster rate than any PTSD from the wars. You want to worry about how to pay for Social Security? Worry about who is actually going to be there to support it. Because these kids won't. No one will appreciate me for saying this but I'm going to say it anyway---the same parent(s) that can't somehow manage consistent and fair parenting b/c they don't know how or don't care to learn WILL make sure that their maladjusted kid is diagnosed with something to get SSI. As a society we buy off these people for seldom having supported them into real adulthood in the first place. We are paying for a different generation's dereliction of duty.

But now the problem is becoming epidemic. And boy do the powers that be and the billionaires know it. How do we know this? Because they have found their perfect scapegoat in the form of teachers. The highly educated teachers must 'keep the secret' of the US fucked up kids and their economically maimed families so that they can buy another yacht or support some charity overseas to feel good.

So the Doctors will continue to function under the same dysfunctional rules. See a kid, hear the parents, give a diagnosis, give a script' and then bitch about the schools. Oh yeah, the Doc's love to slam the schools while they literally write "special education classroom" on a prescription pad. These 140 or so IQ heads haven't figured out that somehow pharmacies don't happen to carry a "special education" class. The very rarely contact the people in the schools, like myself, who actually know what to do and what to report. Nooooo...that's too hard. Instead they demean those of us who see these kids ripped up inside and who in turn, destroy an educational environment.

THAT'S how little we really value education in our country. And you know what America? The people who know how to work with these kids, their families--we're leaving you. We're retiring as fast as we can or we're just outright leaving education.

The other sad fact is we are still running into the same issues that we have since the 60's-poverty and drug use. We have some expensive but really pretty shitty social programs out there in America but they still don't "reform" much of anything. Eventually the kids are either remanded to juvenile. put in the few self contained special education programs that exist or they run away to the gangs. Their offspring will be America's revolutionaries in the next generation.

I sympathize with parents of kids who are mentally ill or who are otherwise unable to control their behavior. I sympathize with them but I'm sick of them too. I had a kid with an IQ of about 52 who had 30 incidents of aggression against staff just this year alone. You would think that the staff was SUPPOSED to take this from the kid per the parents. Now how is a kid, any kid, supposed to learn anything with role models like that?

But that's alright cuz' Billy Gates says he knows how to fix it all and his lapdog Arne Dumbhead is going to get er' done. Christ, I've got 70 year old Grandparents trying to raise these hellions!

Real Einstein's in this administration.

Edited to add: I have never been hit by a kid but I have told an adult parent that if they didn't settle down I would call 911. And guess what? I did call.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. So true about SSI

I should have added that to my OP.

Another thing is the court papers these families have on file. Mom has an order of protection against Dad. Dad has legal custody and Mom is suing him. And on and on. Always about the damn check. Never about wanting to help the kid.

I'm also noticing bigger and bigger families. I've had mentally ill kids with as many as 10 siblings.

[knitter4democracy]

17. Some of us need those court papers. Just sayin'.

I have those. My ex lost all legal and physical custody this fall, and no, it wasn't about the check, though he says it is. It was about the abuse and neglect my kids have suffered at his house. It's about protecting them as best I can.

I had the fun job of copying off the court order for each school and writing a cover letter to go with it with what's in the order that affects the school with page numbers so they can find it easily and put it in my children's computer files. Trust me, it's not fun to do any of that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Didn't mean to paint a broad brush there

Sorry if I did.

[knitter4democracy]

27. Thank you. It's something I'm touchy about.

My ex has vowed to fight for custody until the youngest is 18. We've had over 20 hearings in less than 2 years, so I have quite the pile of paperwork.

[knitter4democracy]

16. They get sent to the alternative high schools like mine.

I work with them, too, as the writing coach. I entirely agree with your entire post and think it should be its own thread.

People have no idea how deeply angry, how full of rage so many teens are these days. They hit their boiling point pretty often, and the juvenile system is overloaded and broken, too. It's really not good.

[txlibdem]

13. Lock up the mentally ill kids... right after you lock up the mentally ill teachers

The first indication of a mental illness in your child's teacher is a Palin 2012 bumper sticker or a copy of her pop-up book on their shelf. This serious mental deficiency is the main contributor to disruption in the classroom and the failure of those kids to learn anything of substance. They may, however, know how to find Russia from their house. Another sign to look for are teabags hanging from the brim of their hat, a cold disregard for others, a lifelong focus on profit at the expense of all else, and lastly (most egregiously) a teacher who does NOT drive an electric car. Watch for these signs and know when to take appropriate action.

This serious situation demands to be put on the forefront, it is a national tragedy and needs to be corrected and reversed immediately.

[knitter4democracy]

15. Nah, they just send them all to the alternative schools.

We alt. ed. teachers are here for a reason, as we don't fit in anywhere else very well, and our students are here for the same reason.

[txlibdem]

19. It makes your job so much easier when you can make a "trouble" child become someone else's problem

When I was in high school they tried to push me into alt. ed section because of my Asperger's. I'm sure I drove my English teacher bonkers the year I memorized the Websters Collegiate dictionary and kept correcting her word use and her tests. She thought I was cheating somehow so she stood me in front of the class and randomly opened to a dictionary page and selected a word. I was able to recite every definition, in order for all but one of the words she chose. Some had 4 definitions and I said them all, in numerical order. On a different occasion, she tried to trick me by telling me I was wrong about a word definition but I told her that the one she said was correct was the #3 definition in the dictionary for that word (can't remember the word now).

Later in life I learned German and could speak it fluently.

I am very saddened since I turned thirty I've been losing all my memorized knowledge, a little bit each year, till now I can't remember even a 10th of what I used to know (if that). I can't remember why I am in some room of my house. I forget common words on a daily basis, like "table," "sunlight," "spoon," etc., sometimes 10 to 20 times a day.

As they said in the movie Blade Runner: "The flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long."

[knitter4democracy]

20. At the alternative high school where I teach, we would love a kid like you.

We take all the smart ones who don't fit in and do our best to challenge them and push them (doesn't always work, but we do try). I look at it like we take all those who are the independent thinkers, the square pegs who don't fit into the round holes, and give them a place to fit in, a set of friends, a safe place to be themselves and learn.

Not all alternative high schools are bad places: I teach in a great one with supportive, caring teachers who don't mind being corrected or given a different answer.

[txlibdem]

21. I'm 49 now so it's a bit late to redo for me

Back then, I lived in a small town where there was only the one high school. The "special ed" kids had separate classes. One of my friends was in them and he liked it but I lived in such denial about my condition that I refused to even discuss going to special ed.

Also, they were the subject of ridicule and derision constantly and I didn't want to volunteer for that.

[knitter4democracy]

22. Times in most areas have changed.

Even small towns have alternative high schools now or send their students to a place like our school. Not all alternative high schools are good (there's an entirely wretched one across town, and we get many students escaping from there), but many are.

[txlibdem]

31. Thank you for the well wishes anyway

Very much appreciated.

:-)

[Odin2005]

38. Hi, fellow Aspie!

:hi:

[knitter4democracy]

14. We have one of those, a sociopath who's changed with meds.

He threatened me and meant it, was flat-out scary to many of the students and staff, would masturbate in class, refuse to do any work, and lie and manipulate everyone. He was evil, and we all kept begging the principal to kick him out permanently. Only the school secretary believed in him and knew there was a good kid in there. She finally convinced the counselor to fight the parents to get him on meds. His mom, after beating the crap out of him in the school parking lot in front of our secretary and principal, finally gave in and got him to the doctor and got him on meds.

He's an entirely different kid. I'm the one who's (still) grading the writing pre-assessments, and he ended up doing two, one before meds and one after, because of the writing class he's in this quarter. I'm still dumbfounded: his handwriting is so different you'd swear it's a different person (different letter formations, spacing, angles, etc.), his writing style is entirely different and actually is clear and makes sense, and the voice in his writing is entirely different, too. If I hadn't seen him write both and had his name on the papers, I would have sworn they were from two different kids.

He's respectful and nice now. The other students love working with him in class. He's voluntarily apologized to everyone for his behavior before, and he's actually stopping other kids from acting out. The lying is still there, but he's nowhere near the sociopathic manipulator he was. He's actually a joy to have in class now. It's the darndest thing.

We're all still in shock. We've seen kids change with medication, change in drastic and amazing ways. We've even done collections amongst the staff to help students pay for their meds until Medicaid kicks in. This one, though, has taken our breath away, and we wonder why it took until he was 17 and almost done with high school for him to get the help he needed until we remember how we gave up on him but our secretary never did.

Yes, sociopaths are in our classrooms, as are bipolar or borderline kids, kids with Oppositional Defiance Disorder and worse. Many of them end up in my school, the good alternative high school in town, and we're better set up for them, but it's not like it's easy working with students with such massive strikes against them before they even walk into the classroom. Not all students who need meds are on them, and not all parents listen to our advice. You're right: it's laughable that we'd say those students can learn at the same rate the other students can or the rate some person sitting on some state committee says they can.

They can change, though, with help, perseverance, love, and medication. They really can.

[Bosso 63]

18. I agree, but what do we do?

As I see it, their are multiple problems. The first one, is a general failure to recognize the scale and scope of the issue, as most people don't see it. Mental illness is an invisible disability, with a stigma that encourages silence.
In addition, the population of kids with mental illness is extremely heterogeneous, so there is no single solution, but as a society, we like "simple" solutions. Even the professionals that work with these kids tend to see the issue from a single perspective,i.e. drugs, family dynamics, education, . . ., so they don't talk to each other much.
If parents recognize the problem, they find that it difficult if not impossible to navigate through the fraying, underfunded patch-work of services that are out there, which only adds to unbelievable amount of stress that the parents already face. As a result of this, even those well meaning parents, who were sane to begin with often end up with stress disorders, depression and or chemical dependency issues, which in turn add to the problems of the child.
We need greater advocacy for the issue.

KICK !

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. I wish I knew the answer

Clearly we need alternative settings for violent kids. Beyond that, I'm not sure what the answer is.

[Kucinich Feingold]

23. So are any of the autism/add/depression students this violent?

Or is it just the mentally ill students

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. Not in my experience, no.

As I said in the OP, these are seriously mentally ill kids. I've never seen a kid with ADD or autism or depression be this violent.

[knitter4democracy]

28. It's usually not those diagnoses who are that violent.

It's the bipolars and borderlines that are often the ones we watch more closely.

[DebJ]

29. Consider yourself lucky if your city has sufficient placements

in alternative schools or other placement types. We don't have that here. Just was in a classroom where a child who had assaulted a teacher (and been prosecuted for it) was placed right back in the same teacher's classroom, although there were several other classrooms he could have gone to. The teacher was visibly frightened. Just heard about another such case this week as well. A student who was violent in our school on several occasions (assaults) was sent to an alternative hospital-type facility....then thrown out 3 days later for fighting and placed in the same classroom. This alternative facility was supposed to find the right med mix to help him. Can't do that in 3 days. He was sent to that facility because of his violent behaviors, and they reject him for the same reason????!!!! Happens all the time around here. The alternative schools need to be expanded 3fold to help all of the kids they should be helping. Instead, the plan here is to 'include' all special needs students all of the time...including emotional support students. Except, I would hope, the severely autistic and life-skills students...but I wouldn't put anything past this school board. We actually have a lot of teachers hoping for a state take over, where at least some one with some type of experience in education would be making the decisions, and maybe give kids a chance.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. No of course we don't have sufficient placements

I also wouldn't wish for a state takeover if I were you. Then you risk losing your collective bargaining agreement, tenure, maybe a reduction in pay. The state took over St Louis schools and they are no better.

[knitter4democracy]

32. Our school could be three times the size.

We've been talking about it. We have a ten page waiting list right now, but we worry about getting too big and sacrificing what makes our school special.

We don't put up with violence, however. We call the cops and don't let the student back until massive changes have happened.

[txlibdem]

34. That situation would clearly be helped by Digital Learning

All students progress will be logged on the computer system at all points through the day so there will be a data trail to print out and show parents and mental health professionals.

You are definitely right that more resources need to be diverted away from Corporate giveaways, tax breaks for the rich, and tax credits for companies that ship American jobs overseas.

Our society has collapsed so much, there are so many different areas that are on the verge of disaster at any moment. Infrastructure, consumer protections, food safety, health care, mental health, etc., have all been subordinated to short term Corporate profits. Yet, our politicians haggle how best to get another tax break for the wealthy.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. LOL and if the students break the computer?

Then there's the struggle of which to do - restrain a dangerous child or run over to the computer to log their behavior. Decisions, decisions. LOL

[Smarmie Doofus]

35. In NYC, calling 911 will not necessarily get the kid arrested.

City cops have been known to show up at our bldg. and refuse to take the kid in because the violence is "part of the handicapping condition."

Usually they're relieved if the kid has an iep 'cause they can get away with this and thus avoid a shitload of onerous paperwork . Schmoozing your shift away while munching on donuts is much more gratifying.

Ed admins will generally back them up.

A reeeeaaaaalllll paradise Gloomberg has created here.

[Odin2005]

37. Sounds like SEVERE Bipolar, what idiotic parents and school.

I knew a adult with Bipolar who acts just like that. "Knew" because I do not interact with him any more after he tried to choke me.