Digital Learning - the Future of Education

[txlibdem]

Saw this on Morning Joe this morning and thought it was interesting. What is it? I've been posting about this for years now.

Digital instruction available over the internet, national standards, the best and most engaging teachers are recorded on video and made available to every student in the nation --no matter whether they live in the most posh suburb or the poorest rural district, students learn at their own pace, only moving on once they've mastered a topic, the teacher in the classroom is a resource and a guide to the students. But, this is key, the student is 100% responsible for their own educational success. The teacher is freed up to offer more help to those students who need it and able to monitor every student's progress and step in when it is needed.

This is the educational system that I have been propounding for a very long time now with the exception (per Jeb Bush (yeccch!)) that the in-class teacher will use the digital stuff in concert with or in support of his or her lectures. I think the individually paced learning is the better way compared to a teacher based lecture that is paced properly for some students, too fast for some and far too slow for others. The students should be fully immersed in their own pace of learning in my opinion.

The Governors are working on this in a bipartisan effort, the conference is going on now and I have to admit that I hate almost all of the people who are involved but if they accomplish these improvements to education in America I can't gripe too much:

Our vision is an education that maximizes every child’s potential for learning, prepares every child with the knowledge and skills to succeed in college and careers, and launches every child into the world with the ability to pursue his or her dreams.

By unleashing the power of digital learning, America has the ability to realize that vision today.

Digital learning can customize and personalize education so all students learn in their own style at their own pace, which maximizes their chances for success in school and beyond. With digital learning, every student – from rural communities to inner cities – can access high quality and rigorous courses in every subject, including foreign languages, math and science.

Digital learning can also be the catalyst for transformational change in education. It is a tool that can address a myriad of challenges faced by schools, community leaders, and policymakers. Digital learning can connect students in the most remote areas with high quality college- and career-prep courses taught by a highly qualified teacher who does not work inside their school building. It can be a powerful tool for teachers who are struggling to meet a variety of student needs. And it can connect communities to a vast network of resources that will help their students compete and succeed in the global economy.

Governors conference on Digital Learning

They've laid out ten elements of the proposed high quality digital learning:

10 Elements of High Quality Digital Learning

1. Student Eligibility: All students are digital learners.

Actions for lawmakers and policymakers:
State ensures access to high quality digital content and online courses to all students.
State ensures access to high quality digital content and online courses to students in K-12 at any time in their academic career.

2. Student Access: All students have ...

10 Elements of High Quality Digital Learning, read them all here.

The Democratic Governor involved alliterates, "Boldly innovate, or be badly irrelevant":

“Be innovative or be irrelevant,” Wise told about 250 state legislators and free market policy advocates. “If you say, I’m going to hunker down, I’m not going to embrace the latest technology, you’ll get through the next couple years but in three to five years you will be badly outdated.”

Wise cited a 2003 Department of Commerce study that analyzed how industries use technology. U.S. education ranked 55th and LAST for technology effectiveness. By comparison, Wise said technology accounted for two-thirds of all productivity growth in the U.S. economy between the years 1995 and 2002.

Wise and former Florida Governor Jeb Bush launched the Digital Learning Council this year to focus on new strategies for digital change in education. Wise is president of the Alliance for Excellent Education, which he joined in 2005 after a single term as West Virginia governor. Bush served for two terms.

The Digital Learning Council’s goal is integrate online and virtual schools, blended learning, personalized learning, social networking and other new technologies into traditional public education as resources to expand current curriculum. Georgia has 452 high schools but, Wise said, the state has just 88 certified physics teachers. “It’s the same in West Virginia,” he said. “It’s the same everywhere.”

...more...

Need more info on The Digital Learning Council, who is involved, etc.

Note: by posting links I am not in any way supporting the views of the sites linked to here. I merely followed a google search to the information.

[pnorman]

1. I've been buying from this outfit for quite some time, and I think very highly of their products.

http://www.teach12.com/greatcourses.aspx?ai=16281 They started with audio tapes, then CDs , and then videos on DVD. More recently, they have downloadable audio versions that can be played in a pocket media player

I myself am WELL past my "school years", and being of a reclusive nature, do better by myself and at my own pace. But the thought of school age children having that as a large part of their education, is a chilling thought! It's essentially one-way communication, and very hierarchical{No "discussion or backtalk"). They NEED the socializing of class-rooms, as well as good and understanding teachers. And from what I gather, their "home life" is largely sitting in front of a TV!

[exboyfil]

2. Can't this be structured as lecture and recitation

just like at large universities? The lecture will be performed for a national audience, while the recitation sections are done by the local teachers. The testable material will be from the lectures and the textbooks/readings while additional explanation/discussion of the material can be done in the local classrooms (or wired in to net sessions to create larger groups if necessary). The model has worked well for large universities for years.

In a way I am already doing this with my daughter's homeschooling. We have a set of Annenberg lectures we watch together, and I comment on the information being presented to her. If you really want to get crazy and more democratic, have the net connected recitation sections decide which groups they want to join. They would have a tendency to gravitate to the best recitations (this may be unworkable but it is a nice idea).

I think this is workable at the middle school on up. The biggest turn off for my daughter in class are teachers who don't show passion for their subject (followed closely by teachers who just can't teach). The experiences of my older daughter has influenced my decision to homeschool my youngest in some subjects. I want to see passion for the subject from their teachers.

Another thing they would help the situation with Physics teachers is to pay more for hard to find certifications such as Physics. Learning Physics is hard, and those individuals who learn it could just as easily pursue engineering degrees.

[txlibdem]

3. Physics is one of the subjects Governors are discussing

The example they used was that there were 200 school districts but only 60 physics teachers. I didn't catch what area they were talking about. So with over 3 to 1 ratio that means a lot of students go under served. But with the discussed Digital Learning that problem would be much less damaging to student success. It would still be nice to have more Physics teachers but sometimes you have to work with what you have, not what you would want in the near term.

I agree so wholeheartedly with you about the excitement of the teacher rubbing off on the students (in most cases). I noticed that in my own school days.

[txlibdem]

4. The Promise of Digital Learning

"The Promise of Digital Learning" was a panel at the 2010 Georgia Legislative Policy Briefing discussing how Georgia can take advantage of the coming disruptive innovation of digital learning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5tRcKt0tWA

One shocking statistic from the above video: the US has 50 million students but 30% of them drop out of school, never graduate; China has 60 million students that they consider gifted.

We cannot continue with this disastrous school system we have. Digital Learning will give every student access to the top teachers in every subject, the best, brightest, most innovate, most motivating. In short, the best teachers in the nation will be providing the instruction for all children. Who could be against this? Do I hear anyone out there saying, "Oh, no you don't. I want a mediocre teacher for my kids!" (crickets...) Nope, I don't hear that.

The teacher in the classroom should be there to assist the children in learning objectives. But the students have to be made the masters of their own education. The student has to be able to set the pace, to seek out additional resources until he or she fully understands a topic. And they should never be allowed to continue on to the next objective until they have mastered the current one.

Contrast that with our current schools where students are passed along whether they understand the lessons or not, and the teacher is held accountable for their test scores. Idiotic. Put the students in the driver's seat for their education. If they are able to learn the material faster then by all means let them go as fast as they are able, but testing must be rigorous not a joke as testing is in many states today -- dumbed down standards, dumbed down tests, producing dumbed down students, dumbed down citizens. NO! Rigorous testing that demands a complete understanding of the topic before the student can progress is the only logical way to ensure each child is being properly educated. Each child is going to learn at their own pace, the problem with schools today is that there is only one pace: that of the teacher and the time limits that are externally imposed. Students are failing and dropping out because the teacher has no choice but to move on due to time constraints, they get farther and farther behind until they get frustrated and drop out, stop giving a crap, or (worse) start thinking that they are stupid and can't learn! Wrong! It's our current educational system that is stupid. All those students need is to be able to learn at their own pace and they will graduate and become productive in the society.

And kids have areas of strengths and areas where they are weaker in understanding. One child may zoom through basic Math while needing remedial help with English or History. Then the next year it may be Math that that child needs help on and he or she zooms through the English criteria at top speed. Each child develops at their own pace and should be able to learn 100% at their own pace, not by some externally imposed schedule. Only by allowing that child to fully control the pace of his or her learning will you end up with an educated, productive adult at the end of all that schooling. Every child could be a PHD if given the proper resources and the proper instruction. Contrary to the apparent belief of teachers and educators in America there are no throw-away children in this world.

How many dropouts could have been the next Einstein given different circumstances? The next Marconi? The next Michaelangelo? The next Jonas Salk (inventor of the polio vaccine)? What wonders are we throwing away because we want to stick with a failing educational system just because "that's the way we always done it?"

[Hannah Bell]

5. The future of $$profits$$. Bipartisanly supported by Jeb Bush & Bill Gates.

[txlibdem]

6. Companies aren't making profits off the current system?

I know you are passionate about your profession but can we both agree that a 30% dropout rate is unacceptable in America.

Read my post above: how many of those dropouts could have been the next Einstein given different circumstances? Or the next Jonas Salk? The next Marconi? The next Michaelangelo or Da Vinci?

How many students can we afford to throw away? We have 50 million students in the US, while in China there are 60 million students that are considered "gifted." Now ask again what number of our students we can afford to throw away.

[Hannah Bell]

7. I'm not a teacher & I don't work in the public schools. So there's one knee-jerk assumption popped.

85% of US adults 25 or older have a high school diploma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States.

75% of US high school students graduate on time -- the majority of the remainder graduate late or get a GED.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2010/section3/indicator18.asp

The "dropout rate" in the US is NOT 30%, & has never been 30%. It's about 8%.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=16.


- China has 1.3 billion people, or about 4.5 times more than the US. The fact (if true) that 4% of their population is classified by someone as "gifted" is irrelevant to any discussion of education in the US.

- Education is mandatory in China for 9 years only (to age 15). Only 85% of the population completes the mandated 9 years.

- Attendance in primary school is 99%, but attendance in primary & secondary schools combined is only 80%, which suggests that more than 20% of students "drop out" sometime after primary school (ends at age 12) but before the end of secondary school.

- Students must pay some part of the cost for education above the mandatory 9 years.

Since the majority of China's population is still very poor, less than half of China's students go to school past the mandated age 15 (43%), because after that they have to start paying.

BTW, that's about 8 million kids in senior high school, so where the hell your "60 million gifted" statistic comes from I have no clue.

- In 2004 there were about 4.4 million Chinese students enrolled in institutions of "higher learning," including trade schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China

There were 14-18 million US students enrolled in institutes of "higher learning" in 2007.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_education_in_the_United_States

[txlibdem]

8. Sorry for my bad memory. I thought you were a teacher.

Your stats on the number of students in higher learning in China, however are wrong:

Statistics indicate that the number of university students in China has increased rapidly in recent years, from 1.08 million in 1998 to over 17 million in 2003. As the country continues to enlarge its recruitment for higher education, the figure will keep growing.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GA06Ad06.html

How do you get 17 million university students from a population of only 4.4 million K-12 students? Aaaah-I don't think so.

In 2002, the literacy rate in China was 90.8%; 95.1% of males and 86.5% of females.<4>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China

How do you get that high a literacy rate having only .004 percent of your population going to school? Aaaaah-I don't think so.

Today, 250 million Chinese get three levels of school education, (elementary, junior and senior high school) doubling the rate of increase in the rest of the world during the same period. Net elementary school enrollment has reached 98.9 percent, and the gross enrollment rate in junior high schools 94.1 percent.

...

China has over 200 million elementary and high school students, who, together with pre-school children, account for one sixth of the total population. For this reason the Central Government has prioritized basic education as a key field of infrastructure construction and educational development.
In recent years, senior high school education has developed steadily. In 2004 enrollment was 8.215 million, 2.3 times that of 1988. Gross national enrollment in senior high schools has reached 43.8 percent, still lower than that of developed countries.
The government has created a special fund to improve conditions in China's elementary and high schools, for new construction, expansion and the re-building of run-down structures. Per-capita educational expenditure for elementary and high school students has grown greatly, teaching and research equipment, books and documents being updated and renewed every year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China

Gosh, that's the same link that you used but comes to a different conclusion... 43.8 percent of Chinese of high school age ARE attending high school. And gosh, I wonder if 60 million students out of 250 million PLUS 17 million might be gifted...

Do a bit better googling next time, eh?

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[Hannah Bell]

52. sure, that's where you heard it, in public school, lol. because it's in the interest

of public schools to tell children even *einstein* couldn't tolerate their methods. and because that factoid is the most important thing public schools want to teach about einstein.

sure, you learned it in public school. of course you did.

the origins of that little factoid is right-wing sources like readers' digest & it has been adopted as fact by elements of the ed deform/homeschooling movement.

Go ahead, google "Einstein failed math". You'll find a bunch of sites rebutting it. The rest are homeschool sites quoting it as fact in support of homeschooling.



Let the Children Lead the WayJul 26, 2010 ... If you are unable to homeschool, for whatever reason, ... Einstein failed math! I can say that one class I had in college had three teachers ...
www.naturemoms.com/blog/2010/07/.../let-the-children-lead-the-way/ - Cached

How to help the school child who dreads tests - Homework & Testing ...This has happened throughout history, look at Albert Einstein, he failed math! .... Are public school students better prepared for college than homeschool ...
www.helium.com/.../333209-how-to-help-the-school-child-who-dreads-tests - Cached

Ralph Jordan Blog - homeschool math and homeschool logiccritical thinking, math, and logic for homeschool education. ... Imagine Einstein on Ritalin. He was a behavior problem that failed math. ...
www.ralphjordanblog.com/ - Cached - Similar

Parenting an ADHD Child: A Father's PerspectiveYou know by now that Thomas Edison had ADHD, that Leonardo Da Vinci was severely dyslexic, and that Albert Einstein failed math and couldn't get a teaching ...
www.christian-mommies.com/.../parenting-an-adhd-child-a-fathers- perspective/ - Cached - Similar

My son, who has a genius IQ hates school and is flunking. How do I ...Home school him. Allow him to take the courses in school that he likes. .... A high IQ and good grades don't go hand in hand. Einstein failed math. ...
www.answerbag.com/q_view/1862277 - Cached - Similar

The Life and Works of Albert Einstein Summary | BookRags.comBefore this time his mother had homeschooled him. ... At this point in time he gave up on math and science for the Solomon and the ethics of his ... Next came Einstein with a score of fifty-four. Mileva failed with a forty-four. ...
www.bookrags.com/essay-2005/4/12/185154/470 - Cached - Similar

Am An Unschooled AdultThat's when I heard about homeschooling. It made complete sense to me. ... I recently learned that Albert Einstein failed mathematics in school. ...
www.homeedmag.com/HEM/156/156.98_art_nschldlt.html - Cached - Similar

Homeschool and Education QuotesTexas Homeschool Info ... Karl Arbeiter: former teacher of Albert Einstein. You' re aware the boy failed my grade school math class, I take it? ...
www.sahomeschool.com/resources/Quotes.asp - Cached


What if I Fail 9th Grade Math? (Part 1) | The Math Mojo ChroniclesDec 13, 2007 ... Einstein hated math (although he didn't fail it like some people think – see .... 2 Homeschooling Blogs. Homeschooling – The Middle Years ...
www.mathmojo.com/chronicles/2007/12/13/9th-grade-math-1/ - Cached

[txlibdem]

55. I did google it and found out that you are right and I was wrong

That does not change the fact that it was what I was taught in school. Perhaps some right wing types have taken some of the things you believe and twisted them to suit their purpose as well? Does that make you a Socialist? I don't understand the inference. What I did, however, was stand up like a man and tell you I was wrong. And I thanked you for helping me learn something.

My moral fiber is not in question in this little tête à tête amoureux we seem to be having.

[Hannah Bell]

57. wherever you learned it, you used it precisely as the ed deformer do -- to illustrate some

presumed incompetence of public schools.

here's a page of definitions & links.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=219&topic_id=29858&mesg_id=29948

perhaps you'll now do me the courtesy of admitting the US high school dropout rate is not 30%, nor is it 25%.

[txlibdem]

62. Ridiculous.

This needs no response. I don't need the help of Einstein to demonstrate failures in our educational system.

I'll admit that the dropout rate is not 30%, but 31% and a heck of a lot higher in some states.

[Hannah Bell]

64. oh, the dropout rate is now 31%? gee, you said it was 30, then 25, now it's 31? link?

[txlibdem]

9. I see the problem

The wiki figure is incorrect: 8.2 million high school students.

12. In 2002, the whole education in senior high school stage (including senior high school, vocational high school, adult high school, common special secondary schools, adult special secondary schools and technical school) includes 33,200 schools, decreased by 1027 compared with last year. All these schools enroll 117,692,000 new students, increased by 1,889,300 (19.12%) compared with last year. There are 29,138,500 students at school, increased by 3,129,200 (12.03%). The gross enrollment ratio reaches 42.8% in senior high school stage.

http://202.205.177.9/edoas/website18/en/planning_s.htm

But that does not excuse the high dropout rate of US schools. I dispute your 8% figure:

Public School Graduation Rates in the United States

Jay P. Greene, Ph.D.
Senior Fellow, Manhattan Institute for Policy Research
Marcus A. Winters
Research Associate, Manhattan Institute for Policy Research

...

The report’s main findings are the following:

The national graduation rate for the public school class of 2000 was 69%. The rate for white students was 76%; for Asian students it was 79%; for African-American students it was 55%; for Hispanic students it was 53%; and for Native Americans it was 57%.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_31.htm

So back to the real question: how many students are, according to you, throw-away? It sounds like your comment says that 8% of our population are throw-away people, but when adjusted with accurate figures that goes up to around 30%.

I ask again: how many of those millions of human beings could have been the next Einstein? The next Beethoven? The next Bill Gates? The next Stephen Hawking? Given an opportunity to achieve everything that they are capable of.

[Hannah Bell]

10. It's not "my" figure. It's the figure of the Dept of Ed. You've cited the Manhattan

Institute, a right-wing think tank in your "dispute".

Sorry, all the Manhattan Institute does is crunch (spin) numbers they get from the Dept of Ed.

[MichiganVote]

12. AND the Dept.of Ed's stats are not a "study". They are mere raw numbers for funding/planning only.

[Hannah Bell]

14. yes, they're raw numbers. raw numbers, not spun numbers from a right-wing think

tank.

[MichiganVote]

15. Its an oxymoron-right wing THINK tank.

[Hannah Bell]

21. true that. i should have said "propaganda & pr" tank.

[txlibdem]

22. I suppose the New York Times is also a right wing think tank?

President Obama pledged today to tackle the dropout rate of American high school students, calling it an economic imperative if the United States intends to remain competitive in the global society.

“We know that the success of every American will be tied more closely than ever before to the level of education that they achieve,” Mr. Obama said. “The jobs will go to the people with the knowledge and the skills to do them. It’s that simple.”

...

In his budget presented to Congress for the 2011 fiscal year, Mr. Obama proposed creating a system to improve how states evaluate the success or failure of schools. For the first time, the administration will ask states to identify the schools that perform the worst and have graduation rates of 60 percent.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/01/obama-takes-aim-at-school-dropout-rates/

If the drop out rate were no problem at all why would the President of The United States make such a statement? Why have a program to locate schools that have a 60% grad rate?

Yup. You're right. The current school system is just peachy!

The report cites two statistics. The national graduation rate increased to 75 percent in 2008, from 72 percent in 2001. And the number of high schools that researchers call dropout factories — based on a formula that compares a school’s 12th-grade enrollment with its 9th-grade enrollment three years earlier — declined to about 1,750 in 2008, from about 2,000 such schools in 2002.

But the report notes that progress in some states and school districts had not been matched in others. Tennessee and New York made “breakthrough gains,” sharply raising their graduation rates from 2002 to 2008, the report says. In Arizona, Utah and Nevada, graduation rates dropped significantly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/education/30graduation.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=high%20school%20graduation%20rate&st=cse

There's some good news: only 25% of our students are drop outs. Hooray!

[MichiganVote]

24. Cynicism on your part is no substitute for critical thinking on my part

As to the comments of the President, which was not a part of the former discussion, I can only imagine his reasons. He hasn't spoken to me yet.

[Name removed]

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[MichiganVote]

36. So what you really want then is a pissing match. Sorry life's too short.

[txlibdem]

38. Say something intelligent and I'll probably respond. n/t

[MichiganVote]

40. Apparently I just did. :)

[txlibdem]

50. Good one.

Ya got me. :hide:

[Hannah Bell]

29. 75% is exactly the number I linked. You seem to think the "graduation rate" means

all the rest are "drop-outs".

But they're not. The graduation rate is the percent of students who graduate ON SCHEDULE.

It's not the percent of students who STAY IN SCHOOL.

Oh, & PS: the NYT has been one of the biggest cheerleaders & propagandists for ed deform. Not quite as big as the WaPo, but then, the NYT doesn't make 70% of its profits from its for-profit education arm, Kaplan Ed.

[txlibdem]

19. They use a misleading calculation to mask the real numbers

Dept of Ed (as it says in your link that YOU provided) includes students who merely pass a GED test. Guess what? Those are high school dropouts! The real figures are the ones I quoted. Yours are misleading and give a false impression of success in our school system.

[Hannah Bell]

23. A person who does GED is not a high school dropout, nor were they necessarily a dropout

when they did their GED.

And if they were actually drop-outs who left school, they nevertheless completed a GED -- typically by taking remedial classes in a community college setting.

Your appear to be "throwing away" & disparaging the students who made that effort by calling them "drop-outs".

But ed deformers aren't noted for their consistency.

But you don't like that data, so here's *event* dropouts, i.e. the actual percent of students who drop out (LEAVE SCHOOL) every year in grades 9-12.

It was 4.4% in 2006-2007.

Multiply that by 3 years you get 13.2%.

But of course, you can't assume all those kids *stayed* dropped out.

[txlibdem]

25. Failed education system pundits love to toss out crap numbers and avoid answering questions

Your apparent level of intelligence is dropping with each post. Is that even possible?

Answer the question. How many American children do not deserve to fulfill their potential? How many children will you toss onto the garbage heap?

[Hannah Bell]

32. you're tiresome & have nothing of interest to say. I've demonstrated, with facts,

that you're wrong about china & wrong about the US drop-out rate.

all you have left is personal attack & disingenuous questions.

The intellectual poverty & dishonesty of the ed deform movement is astonishing.

[txlibdem]

37. You've demonstrated your inability to google

You've demonstrated your ability to dissemble.
You've demonstrated your lack of humanity.
You've demonstrated your fear of this question and your inability to openly admit that you are wrong.
You've demonstrated that you are a supporter and cheerleader for a failing educational system.

You can deny all you want. You can make up numbers, then change them, then change them again.

Answer the question. How many millions of American children are not worth "caring about" enough to have the chance to be all that they can be.

[Hannah Bell]

44. lol. says the person who says she got her 30% figure by googling "a bunch of sites".

says the person who says einstein failed math class.

it would be funny if it didn't represent the typical ed deform acolyte.

btw, please link me to the numbers I "made up".

because i seem to recall referencing every fact i cited. from actual dept of ed sites, not right-wing think tanks.

and please don't tell me the dept of ed is some far-left place that's trying to hide the facts. the dept of ed is full on-board with ed deform, & has been since bush, at minimum.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Wow.

You've demonstrated two things in this thread:

1. You don't understand the stats you keep quoting are twisted to suit an agenda.

2. You resort to personal attacks when proven wrong.

[MichiganVote]

33. All parents of children want their young to fulfill their potential

Which is why the parents of college graduates today are dismayed to see that their college graduate knee deep in debt kids thanks to the Republicans kids are now parking cars, waiting tables or doing other work beneath their "potential".

As stated, teh US public education system does not and never has promised an education that enables students to fulfill their "potential". There are state by state standards that students are taught to meet. If that translates to "potential" to you, more power to ya'.

[MichiganVote]

31. Students opt for the GED for many reasons. GED students are not considered drop outs.

[txlibdem]

45. They are not considered drop outs.. by you.

And by the ed.gov website which includes them in "Graduation rates" to artificially inflate the numbers.

So, please enlighten me. What exactly will a GED holder do for a career? What percentage of GED holders go on to college? How many of them get a high paying job or one that makes them feel like they are doing what they SHOULD be doing in life.

My thesis is that allowing students to be 100% responsible for their own educational achievement will be a good thing for them, allowing them to study at their own pace and use the teacher only as a backup, a trusted and vitally important resource will help them get more out of school and ultimately have the potential to get more out of life. Digital Learning that is available to 100% of students in America will give our students access to the best information we can give them. How is that a bad thing?

[MichiganVote]

47. GED holders can go to college and often do, in my experience.

But it hardly matters at this point since college is out of reach for most kids because of the costs, the time, transportation, living costs and so on and so forth.

That's not a K-12 problem. That's a 'we have a bunch of pig headed, rich, white, gonna make another buck off the backs of kids' problem.

Digital learning HAS been around for a long time in the HS schools for credit retrieval. The students are 100% in charge of their progress using that format. Have you researched any of that? Doubtful.

[Hannah Bell]

48. you say so. you provide no evidence.

um, let's see. last time I checked GED holders were eligible to attend college, just like everyone else.

your assumption that all GED students are morons who will lead failed lives sounds suspiciously like someone "throwing away" those students.

But the fact is, 75% of US high school students graduate on time, and at least 5% more graduate late, but with a high school diploma, not a GED.

my assumption is that on-line education will be good for profits, and all the rest of the bullshit used to talk it up ignores reality.

such as the bullshit in your post there. students are going to "study at their own pace"? that will work exactly to the extent that their parents have the time, motivation & knowledge base to be involved in their education.

[txlibdem]

53. Parents need to be involved in their child's education, yes, but it will be teachers who monitor

The current proposals are that 100% of all learning will be available digitally, available to 100% of American students, 100% of the time, at any time they want. They will be able to access much more information than they are now able to. And, yes, they will be working at their own pace. They will be expected to actually learn a segment before they are allowed to just continue on, confirmed by testing on the computer. Teachers will no longer be able to pass students who do not meet the requirements and standards.

I understand you have some kind of bug up your butt about Digital Learning and allowing students to go at their own pace. You'll have to get over that because this is the new reality for education in America. The teachers will be trained in monitoring all their students' progress and will have the computer data to show where each student is at all times. There will be no more or less need for parent involvement than there is now. I said nothing of the kind.

Teachers in one Denver school that switched to digital self-paced learning all love it --and so do the students. They polled the students and none of them wanted to go back to the old way of learning.

[MichiganVote]

59. And I will predict there will not be any teachers in a system like that.

You complain teachers fail students.

Then you complain that they artificially inflate student grades

Yet you claim that teachers will be available to act as monitors for a computer based type of learning which is already in use in most HS programs throughout the US---and guess what? It is used among the very "failed" students you want to advocate for.

"Self paced learning" is also what the GED is all about. And IF you know anything about the GED program you would know that that too is computer driven and that the requirements are much higher today than they were in the past. And guess what else?

The computer based programming DOES allow for students to pass over some of the lessons or tests for various reasons that a TEACHER is capable of assessing. Not a hall monitor, not a truck driver out of a job who wants to sit a desk and drink coffee all day--an actual, educated, credentialed teacher.

Some facts to think about.

[txlibdem]

69. The conference on education covered everything you post about

Did you read the links in the OP? Please do so to help facilitate an intelligent conversation.

[MichiganVote]

74. Oh was I supposed to assume that was a conference on education? Why?

Because they called it that? Because they used the word "education"? Sure. They'll have to dress it up more than that to overcome the expectations that people now have about education.

[txlibdem]

77. Well, my first link does say "Governors conference on Digital Learning"

I guess it's possible to confuse that with something else... I just don't see myself ever falling into that trap, though.

:banghead:

[MichiganVote]

90. All I felt I was reading was another profit scheme for wealthy barons.

That doesn't signify education. Oh sure, they can drop in the word. Big deal.

[Hannah Bell]

60. it will be "teachers" "monitoring" 100s of children, at a distance, destroying

most possibilities for actual monitoring that respected the student's individual strengths/weaknesses/personal issues.

good luck with that. don't tell me the "teachers" won't be "monitoring" many more students than are even in today's crowded classrooms.

there's no benefit otherwise for those who stand to profit. no matter what garbage they feed the public.

[MichiganVote]

61. And all forms of state standards will be thrown out the window.

[Hannah Bell]

63. no problem, bill gates has written core standards for the nation.

required 8th-grade reading = little women.

yeah, that'll be a big hit with inner-city 8th grade boys.

[MichiganVote]

67. Oh shit You have got to be kidding me! LOL! Oh yeah, they'll love that!

Hell they don't even like the George Washington stuff. White guy saves America so black people can become slaves.Oh yeah, they'll think the Little Women are just so poor, down and out.

[Hannah Bell]

68. not kidding.

I am a longtime 7-8th grade teacher. The Common Core Curricululm maps do not offer a representation of any area of a classroom I have seen or would want anyone I care about to be a part of.

Little Women posited as an exemplary text for 8th graders provides a useful snapshot of what is wrong with these Common Core Curriculum maps.

I consider myself a good teacher but I can't imagine trying to pull any 13-year-old through this book. I still have the copy of Little Women that I read and loved eons ago--many years before I was in 8th grade. My father and I started it together. His bookmark remains in Chapter 3. He never got any further. Even I wouldn't have tolerated the book as an 8th grader. Take a look at the text for yourself.

From the outdated to the bizarre, James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man is recommended for "advanced" 8th graders. Here's how it begins:

"Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a moocow coming down along the road and this moocow that was coming down along the road met a nicens little boy named baby tuckoo. His father told him that story: his father looked at him through a glass: he had a hairy face. He was baby tuckoo. The moocow came down the road where Betty Byrne lived: she sold lemon platt."

http://www.susanohanian.org/show_commentary.php?id=830.


prep school ed deformers are fools.


I read little women & all the alcott books before i got to middle school. i loved them, but my friends did not. and they were girls. i would never, never make middle-school *boys* read them, & not just inner-city boys.

i still remember how our junior high sent the entire school into seattle to see "west side story" at a theater for a field trip. it was a disaster once the jets started dancing. laughter, things thrown at the screen, etc.

and these were "nice" middle class kids in the 60s.

neither of those recommendations have any sense of the age group. yeah, right, i want to read james joyce in 8th grade.

[txlibdem]

70. Which of your posts is the lie, post #7 or this one?

Hannah Bell (1000+ posts) Fri Dec-03-10 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I'm not a teacher & I don't work in the public schools.

So you are not a teacher but you ARE a longtime 7th and 8th grade teacher? Message received.

[Hannah Bell]

72. you really can't read, can you? check the link. here, i'll link the text again for you.

http://www.susanohanian.org/show_commentary.php?id=830 .

I am a longtime 7-8th grade teacher. The Common Core Curricululm maps do not offer a representation of any area of a classroom I have seen or would want anyone I care about to be a part of.



now, what do you think about requiring 8th grade boys to read little women? will that help all those kids that have been "thrown away" to reach their "full potential"?

lol.

perhaps you prefer a book that goes on for 1000 pages speaking in modernist code about moocows & tucows in 19th-century dublin as a potential-enhancer for 8th-graders.

yeah, that's the ticket.

[txlibdem]

78. Properly formatting quoted paragraphs aids others in understanding your meaning

Your post started not with the link but with the statement: I am a longtime 7th to 8th grade Teacher...

I guess I should have looked down the page about 4 paragraphs to see a link there and inferred that you didn't know how to use the HTML formatting options available to every poster here on DU. I'll gladly send you a PM to let you know how to use the "div" code so others don't confuse others' words for your own as I did.

Sorry for calling you a teacher. I didn't mean it as an insult. I loved almost all of my teachers and only thought that around 5% or 10% of them should be helped to find other careers. I've had some of the most highly motivated, best teachers in the world, teachers that managed to take a troubled youth and make him give a crap about his education, enough to achieve far more than my parents' wildest dreams for me (they had quite low expectations based on my wild upbringing....) O8)

[Hannah Bell]

84. lol. you didn't read anything but the first line.

[txlibdem]

88. lol. you didn't refute anything I said...

Or, to you would that be "refudiate?"

[MichiganVote]

73. Lol, I am the rare reader who was reading Joyce and Faulkner by 8th grade

But then my sisters left Valley of the Dolls lying around and I read that too. Totally messed up the literary "potential" in me as I then went on to read The Carpetbaggers. :) Thanks for the memories. Too funny.

[Hannah Bell]

75. faulkner is at least comprehensible. i picked up joyce once & never

wanted to repeat the exercise.

to say you "enjoyed" it before 8th grade -- mind-boggling.

[MichiganVote]

76. I know. :) But Bill Gates would be so proud. And that's the difference.

I could read smut and high brow literary works AND understand them whereas Bill Gates can't read either. But somehow he's the big success story because he built his business off the backs of the knowledge others provided to him.

[Hannah Bell]

54. Definition of High School Dropout Rate

How Is the Dropout Rate Calculated?

The U.S. Department of Education's National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) reports three types of dropout rates:

1. event rates reflect the percentage of students who drop out in a single year without completing high school;

2. status rates reflect the percentage of the population in a given age range who have not finished high school or are not enrolled in school at one point in time; and

3. cohort rates reflect the percentage of a single group of students who drop out over time.

Status rates are higher than event rates, since they reflect the number of students in a given age range who have dropped out of school over a number of years, rather than a "snapshot" of one year.

For example, the national event dropout rate <1> in grades 10 through 12 for 1993 was 4.5 percent, while the 1993 national status dropout rate <2> for 16- to 24-year-olds was 11.0 percent.

What Are the Trends?

NCES publishes an annual report that allows readers to compare dropout rates over time (McMillen et.al., 1994). Nationwide, dropout rates have declined during the last decade:

The status dropout rate for 16- to 24-year-olds declined from 14.6 percent in 1972 to 11.0 percent in 1992 and 1993;

The event dropout rate for ages 15 through 24 in grades 10 through 12 has fallen from 6.1 percent in 1972 to 4.5 percent in 1993; and

The cohort rate <3> for students who were sophomores in 1980 and dropped out between grades 10 and 12 was 11.4 percent, while the cohort rate for a comparable group of 1990 sophomores was 6.2 percent.

http://www2.ed.gov/pubs/OR/ConsumerGuides/dropout.html


Trends

Dropout rates of young people ages 16 to 24 in the civilian, non-institutionalized
population gradually declined between 1972 and 2005, from 15 percent to a low of 9 in
2005. (See Table 2) In this indicator, dropouts are defined as individuals ages 16 to 24 who are not enrolled in and have not completed high school.

In 1972, the dropout rate among non-Hispanic blacks was 21 percent, 12 percent among non-Hispanic whites, and 34 percent for Hispanic youth.

These rates have since declined substantially for each
group. The dropout rate for non-Hispanic black youth reached an historic low of 11
percent in 2005. (See Figure 1)

This drop is at least in part related to increased
incarceration rates among black male high school dropouts, which more than doubled
between 1980 and 1999, thus removing them from the civilian non-institutionalized
population on which these estimates are based.8

Rates among Hispanic youth have declined in last few years from 30 percent in 1998 to 23 percent in 2005.

http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/pdf/1_PDF.pdf


Compact Rate Definition

The numerator of the Compact Rate is made up of graduates who receive regular or advanced diplomas within four years of entering ninth grade.

Students who continue high school in the fall following their expected graduation date or receive General Educational Development (GED) certificates are not considered graduates in the Compact Rate.

http://ritter.tea.state.tx.us/research/pdfs/NGA_compact_rate_policy_brief.pdf

[txlibdem]

79. Thanks to the compact rate definition link to tea.state.tx.us

The chart in that link shows that only 1 state has graduation rates for Hispanic students that exceed 72%, only 4 states show African-American students graduate at more than a 72% rate. Native Americans fare even worse than those two.

I see my error. I'm white so I should have been concerned only about the White kids. I shouldn't give a crap about "those" people's children at all. Thank you for straightening out my outlook on life. My daughter, by the way, is half Asian and their grad rate is better than Whites in a lot of states so I should be singing the praises of the current ed system even more than you. Since I am White.
:sarcasm: <--- for the sarcasm challenged, the above paragraph was

I have to go throw up now...

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. Yeah me too

the throwing up part, that is :puke:

[txlibdem]

83. I'm not sure I get your message

Are you saying that, since I am White, I should never care that up to 50% of African-American, Hispanic, and Native American children graduate high school? And that my criticism of the current educational system is so irrational despite those facts?

Or are you saying that it upsets you as much as it does me that there are so many people in this nation that have lost all humanity when it comes to "those" people? Or that so many so-called good Americans wouldn't experience a spark of emotion if they saw someone suffering right before their very eyes, let alone read about it, or heard about it anecdotally from your neighbor/cousin/coworker, etc?

I'm sure you aren't one of the inhuman "morans" who think that consigning so many millions of non-whites to poverty for life is just peachy...

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. And I'm not surprised to see you don't get it.

You do seem to have a knack for making nonsensical assumptions.

[Hannah Bell]

85. bad faith or abysmal reading skills, which is it?

[MichiganVote]

11. Contrary to your assumption that students who do not progress to graduation are

"thrown away"....none of these studies account for what percentage of US or Chinese students are unmotivated,leave education for employment and / or what percentage do not "graduate" because they are special education students who take part in post HS programs that do not recognize them as "graduates".

Its nice to think that there is only one "type" of student who is somehow deprived of an education but that is a narrow identification of reality. Moreover, the US public education system does not and never has promised US students "an opportunity to achieve everything they are capable of". That too is an erroneous assumption. I hardly think that China promises anything of the sort either.

But go ahead and believe that every student in the US who does not achieve a diploma or a certificate of completion or a GED is somehow "thrown away" if it makes you feel better.

[txlibdem]

17. Do they fulfill their potential?

How might they do that? How many millions of American children can we afford to "lose" to low skill labor, which is all you'll get without at least graduating high school. Your high sounding rhetoric rings hollow.

How many of those students might have been the one to cure cancer? How many might have developed a revolutionary power source? A revolutionary battery that makes electric cars cost half as much as gas powered cars? A new computer chip? A new chemical coating that generates energy from the sun? Etc. What are we losing as a society by allowing the current educational system to continue tossing our potential scientists, engineers and inventors on the trash heap.

Einstein flunked math class. You'd probably be okay with the next Einstein living a life of obscurity and poverty instead of coming up with amazing breakthroughs or discoveries?

[MichiganVote]

35. Define "potential"

You seem to want to disallow a discussion and simply propose that education and educators defile children. That's pretty sad and since I know that is not what the majority of education workers at any level do, your arguing does not persuade me.

[txlibdem]

41. Your words, not mine.

I said no such thing. I merely quoted accurate figures and asked a simple question.

But please don't act dumb. You and I both know what achieving one's potential means. I am neither trying to persuade you (a futile task in all likelihood) nor do I really care what you think about the OP.

If you want to add something constructive to the discussion about Digital Learning and how it will help America's students, you are most certainly welcome.

[Hannah Bell]

42. you said 30% of US high school students become drop outs. Completely false.

No "accurate" figures there.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

39. Einstein didn't flunk math class. seriously, you read too much ed deform propaganda.

it's prevented you from fulfilling your potential.

One widely held belief about Einstein is that he failed math as a student, an assertion that is made, often accompanied by the phrase “as everyone knows,” by scores of books and thousands of websites designed to reassure underachieving students. A Google search of Einstein failed math turns up more than 500,000 references. The allegation even made it into the famous “Ripley’s Believe it or Not!” newspaper column.

Alas, Einstein’s childhood offers history many savory ironies, but this is not one of them. In 1935, a rabbi in Princeton showed him a clipping of the Ripley’s column with the headline “Greatest living mathematician failed in mathematics.”

Einstein laughed. “I never failed in mathematics,” he replied, correctly. “Before I was fifteen I had mastered differential and integral calculus.” In primary school, he was at the top of his class and “far above the school requirements” in math. By age 12, his sister recalled, “he already had a predilection for solving complicated problems in applied arithmetic,” and he decided to see if he could jump ahead by learning geometry and algebra on his own.

His parents bought him the textbooks in advance so that he could master them over summer vacation. Not only did he learn the proofs in the books, he also tackled the new theories by trying to prove them on his own. He even came up on his own with a way to prove the Pythagorean theory.

http://www.time.com/time/2007/einstein/3.html


When he was in an elite gymnasium completing his education, he rebelled against the rigid teaching methods (akin to what the ed deformers want to give to poor kids), but he never flunked a class. He was always a top student.

He came from the upper middle class & got an excellent education. Plus he had involved parents & his family's circle of acquaintances was highly educated.

Plus his father was an engineer who founded a company that manufactured electrical equipment -- at the beginnngs of the industry, in competition with Siemens -- & Einstein was exposed to math & physics from an early age -- both practically & theoretically.

In other words, Einstein came from a family with a good deal of capital (economic & "cultural"). Unlike most poor families.

The ed deformers & home schoolers who rant about how "Einstein flunked math" because of poor teachers are laughable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein.

[txlibdem]

58. That's the exact link I used

and the exact text.

Are you feeling ok?

[Hannah Bell]

65. lol. now i know you're playing games. good to know so i won't have a moment

of weakness & think you might possibly really believe what you're spouting.

[Hannah Bell]

51. Manhattan Institute: "developing ideas that foster economic choice and individual responsibility."

lol.

Trustees = a bunch of financiers, & include:

William Kristol, neocon perennial

Maurice Greenberg (CV Starr, i.e. AIG, founded on opium & heroin money), #214 on the world's most rich list.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/trustees.htm

[txlibdem]

56. I already answered this

Read my answer above.

[Hannah Bell]

66. just random googling to find the 30% figure you wanted, sure. too bad you could only find

it from right-wing sources.


i think we all know who's pushing "digital education" -- folks like bill gates, jeb bush, & other such prep-school boys with a personal interest -- in their own pocketbooks.

[RetAZEd]

81. My personal observations

I can understand why this approach seems so appealing, but i wonder if txlibdem has worked with children. I have and had the chance to see elementary age kids, especially, interact with technology for the past few decades. Two examples: I used to have several computers available for ed games during recess. A great one is Oregon Trail. It's great for problem solving, reading and math practice. But the kids always wanted to jump to the part called "hunt for food", what they called "the hunting/shooting game". My husband worked for a while in a charter high school with an on-line curriculum. He taught math and the program consisted of short lessons and follow-up quizzes. Without careful monitorng, the students would skip the lesson and just keep taking the quizzes until they eliminated the wrong choices. Poor design? Yes, but your post makes me think that you think kids are "self-motivated" just to learn. I'm sorry, whether it's parents or teachers as teachers, they need the motivation/direction of caring and knowledgeable adults.

Also, don't you know/understand how much Bill Gates is drooling over the idea of a national curriculum, powered by Microsoft. Read about "credit recovery" and maybe you'll understand what I'm talking about.

[txlibdem]

82. I appreciate your point of view on this topic

I understood that it would get a little heat when I posted it. There are some teachers who think they are God's gift to pedagogy and no one or no thing could ever equal their supreme awesomeness in the classroom. There are also some teachers who are Luddites and want nothing more technological than a chalkboard. And there are a lot of people in the current education system who do not want to see a single thing changed, for whatever reason: they have tenure and a secure job for life (unlike the other 99% of Americans), the "I got mine" attitude; they have built up a career off of inside knowledge of "the system" and don't want to lose their usefulness/edge; they financially profit off the existing system (textbooks, supplies, learning aids, dioramas, what-have-you); they are frightened of change and don't want anything to change in ANY aspect of their professional or personal lives, etc. But I didn't anticipate the bashing I was going to get.

My perspective is "if it helps the students" then it's a good change to make. I will never agree with someone who is telling me that locking 30 students into a single pace of learning is superior to letting each student learn at his or her own pace, faster in the subjects they grasp easily but more slowly in subjects with which they have difficulty. The drop out statistics show that the current educational system fails up to 50% of African-American, Hispanic and Native American children. Not graduating high school is the #1 indicator of your future earning potential. So, how can suggesting something that will help students potentially avoid a life of grinding poverty and drudgery, how can that be a terrible thing.

[Hannah Bell]

86. lol. your discussion in this thread is all about bad faith.

[txlibdem]

87. Look closely. This is me disagreeing with you.

If anything, a lot of the discussion has been centered around the bad faith and lack of human compassion of a number of people. I'm not naming any names...

:nopity:

[Hannah Bell]

100. listen closely. disagreeing & playing games are two different things.

[txlibdem]

106. And then you can guess exactly how much your opinion matters to me...

After our fun little exchanges I value your opinion about as much as Mitch McConnell's. I an concerned about your feelings for me or my ideas about as much as I care what Ronnie Raygun would think of them.

Blather on, though, if it makes your typing fingers feel happy. :hi:

[Hannah Bell]

108. funny, since both reagan & mcconnell would loooove digital education, like all wingnuts.

[txlibdem]

109. I'm not a cookie cutter

Sometimes a person believes strongly about something because they're sure it's the right thing to do, not because they're a Nazi or a secret Republican-in-Dems-clothing like our President. Point #2, you assume that only the Pukes are on the committee, you would be wrong; it is a bipartisan working group.

What really confuses me is why the teachers union hasn't been the one who is championing Digital Learning. They are too busy defending turf and championing the status quo (despite well documented evidence of the glaring failures of our current educational system). That puts me at odds with them and their lock-step supporters? So be it.

[MichiganVote]

89. Exactly how do "some" teachers "profit" from textbooks in a classroom?

Your first paragraph contains a dearth of opinion but no facts. You don't even have so much as a teacher anecdotal report to make. So you're whining. Do you even know what technology teachers of every age now use? Does it even occur to you to wonder what training they have? And do you even care?

I mean really if these professionals are so bothersome to you, what the hell do you care? You want to invest in an unproven profit driven scheme that is clearly intended to move educational dollars out of the hands of local control and into the pockets of billionaires.

That's progress? Prove it.

[txlibdem]

92. Here is my exact quote

"And there are a lot of people in the current education system who do not want to see a single thing changed, for whatever reason"

Please find for me the word "teacher" in there...

[MichiganVote]

95. Referring to teachers you said.......

Referring to teachers you said

"they financially profit off the existing system (textbooks, supplies, learning aids, dioramas,)

So explain to me how teachers profit from a diorama. I'm dying to know.

[txlibdem]

96. Remedial reading class recommended.

Please read it again. I said some teachers are Luddites, please provide a rebuttal to that fact. Then I said that there are some in the educational system who wanted no changes. Are teachers the only profession within the educational system? I do not think so. Please go back and actually read the post. Thank you.

[MichiganVote]

101. "some" is not a researched based figure. And you were referring to teachers.

Diorama:The word diorama can refers to a theatre device, or, a three-dimensional full-size or miniature model, sometimes enclosed in a glass showcase for a museum. Usually in elementary school kids build them out of cardboard boxes with hand made materials and their parent assist them to bring them to school. Often used as a part of a Science project in a school Science fair.

So once again, how is it that educators of any stripe make money off Diorama's?

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MichiganVote]

107. Merry Christmas!

[MichiganVote]

91. Exactly right. The kids usually try to test out prior to reading/studying/retaining

the needed information. Then when that doesn't work, they do one of two things, they give up, skip school and generally fool around OR they have one of their friends given them the answers to the quiz. Then when a State accountability test is given to them they bomb.

And just think...we can all blame the teachers all over again!

[txlibdem]

93. You're not a teacher, are you?

With such a negative view of our nations' students I sure hope not.

1. Not all students are lazy cheaters as you seem to think.
2. Whose job is it to watch the stats to make sure kids are not goofing off? Hint: same as it is today...
3. When children are given goals to achieve and positive reinforcement they will WANT to achieve
4. The students who are turned off of education are the product of the current system, its direct result

The Digital Learning links I provided explain that students cannot jump ahead to the test, the teacher (or other authority) will be able to set limits on the number of times a test can be attempted before a red flag is sent out.

Anyone can poke holes in a proposed system. It's easy to find fault. Why not put your obvious intellect to work coming up with improvements to the Digital Learning system and communicating that to the correct persons?

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. Bravo

[MichiganVote]

102. :) the good posts always die young.

[txlibdem]

105. When they can be so easily disproven, by quoting the author!

:rofl:

[Starry Messenger]

99. +100,000