Just did a radio show about Waiting for Superman and the reform movement

[proud2BlibKansan]

It was a wonderful experience. There were 8 teachers from suburban, rural and urban districts plus local union leaders. We discussed the film and the realities of our jobs. We each have different perspectives and serve very different communities but there were common threads evident. All of us agreed we are weary of being beat up and blamed for perceived problems in our public schools. We agreed teachers do not have a guaranteed job for life and abolishing tenure will not magically fix our public schools. We agreed charter schools are not the answer. All of us expressed concern about standardized tests as well as parental involvement and participation.

After the show we were talking and we discussed the changes to the free and reduced meal program that have caused many of our students to have to pay for meals at school for the first time. A couple of us said we are now buying food like breakfast bars to have on hand in our classrooms for hungry kids. That's what teachers do. We take care of kids. And it occurred to me that therein lies a big problem. We are taking care of the kids when we should be picking up the phone, writing letters to the editor and making noise about the increasing numbers of hungry kids in our classrooms. But as teachers so often do, we merely buy more food at the grocery store and clear off a shelf in our classroom closets for the food. Problem solved. But not really.

Something to think about anyway . . .

[snot]

1. Here's a request/suggestion

Can teachers or their union give me some succinct talking points, with back-up sources/authority for what you say, that I can use when someone starts giving me the conservative party line? Because telling them I think Arne Duncan et al. have an agenda only gets me so far. They have well-developed statistics, explanations, theories, a whole, plausible storyline in support of their agenda. I, on the other hand, have only vaguely-recalled anecdotes from madfloridian, bless her/him.

I got a terrific public edu back in the 60's, so I know it can be done. What are the REAL causes for public edu's decline? Is it because, in inflation-adjusted dollars, we spend significantly less per student now? Is it because, in most households, both parents are working now, plus they're working longer hours, so can't help with homework, attend PTA, be on edu boards?

What are the REAL fixes? What's already been tried, what's failed, in the US and in other countries? Sources, authority, statistics, comparisons?

If teachers/their union are not putting these kinds of talking points together, why not? Because if they're too busy doing other stuff, pretty soon they may have nothing to do at all.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Well there's lots of good stuff right here on DU

I would strongly recommend madfloridian's and Hannah Bell's posts. There are also many good references on both AFT and NEA websites.

I also think we need to point out the GOOD things about our public schools. The dropout rate has gone DOWN and many test scores are up. But there has been a 30 year long campaign to discredit our public schools so we hyperfocus on 'problems' that don't really exist and solutions that don't really work.

If you are really interested in being more well informed on this topic, I would strongly recommend Diane Ravitch's book: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BHXCoXYZL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465014917/

[snot]

6. I've read lots of Madfloridian's and Hannah Bell's stuff, and

I've sent lots of their stuff to local reporters and others, trying to get people to look into what's going on. But I'm not sure they even read it -- it's voluminous and anecdotal. I mean, anecdotes are great; but I think we need to be able to slot them into a simple, bullet-point big picture -- even if oversimplified a bit -- it has to be boiled down to talking points.

It's not enough just to say Arne has an agenda, and they're just trying to bust one of the few decent unions left in this country and privatize edu so they can scrape out more profits, etc. etc. You have to either convincingly make the case that kids are as well educated now as they ever were -- and I don't see tons of evidence of that -- or else you have to explain the causes in such a way as to establish that privatizing everything is NOT going to help. E.g., if the real causes are that parents are overworked and underfunded, privatizing won't fix that.

And you have to be put your 3 to 5 main points across succinctly. This is part of why Repubs have been winning and Dems losing p.r. battles.

I'll check out the book you've mentioned -- thanks! I'm sure it will be very helpful.

Fact remains, I don't have kids and haven't been inside a public school in 4 decades -- surely it would be better and infinitely easier for someone more involved to boil this story down to talking points that someone like me can use and be confident I'm not mangling the case.

So I'm asking people who know a lot more than I do to do that.

[madfloridian]

17. Depends on your definition of education.

Really it boils down to that. People do not want to be bothered to be informed, and that is the problem. The words "privatization" and "deregulation" which I often use here....should strike fear after what happened to our economy.

If parents think education is just taking a high-stakes test, then their children will pay the price of their lack of curiosity.

[Smarmie Doofus]

3. I'll ditto Proud2Be's suggestions. And , keep in mind...

... the public ed "crisis" is an *urban* public ed crisis.

If folks in leafy green well heeled suburbs are clamoring to have their PSs "reformed," it's news to me.

And yes, they have work rules, seniority, "lock-step" pay scales and ..... UNIONS.

[snot]

7. See, I wouldn't even know there's any difference betw urban/rural.

[teacher gal]

4. IMO, no one was better

at debunking their "statistics" than Gerald Bracey. Google him.

Diane Ravitch's new book "The Death and Life of the Great American School System" might be a good resource to counter their talking points.

[Hannah Bell]

8. First, you tell me:

1. What is the evidence for this "decline"?
2. When did this "decline" begin?
3. How large is this "decline"?
4. Where did your ideas about this "decline" come from?

[snot]

9. I KNOW NOTHING! That's why I want someone who knows more than I do to

summarize what's really going on!

But although I want someone to have backed it up with the facts, I want it short and sweet so I can tell it that way to others!

I'm trying to help, but I have other issues I'm much more involved in, and I really can't take on a lot of study on this one.

I'm just saying if someone who knows more and can back it up can put together a coherent, succinct summary, I can use it. But it needs to do more than just say Arne is a union buster. If there's no decline, it has to say that, and there has to be something to back it up. If there is a decline, we need to be able to point to some causes and explain why charters can or cannot address those causes.

Seriously, did anyone see the asian chick on the Colbert Report the other night who was pushing Arne's cause, with Colbert loving it? And a good friend of mine saw Waiting for Superman, which I haven't seen but I have a feeling it's the RW p.o.v., and even though my friend is a staunch liberal, he was completely convinced.

If teachers have a different story to tell, somebody who understands it has to start telling it in a more-readily digestible form, and fast, 'cuz they're losing the p.r. war.

[Hannah Bell]

10. i asked you the questions because your request started out assuming there was a decline that needed

to be explained.

Your request is reasonable, but it isn't so easy as you think. To take just one measure, HS graduation rates, they're figured at least four different ways by the DOE alone & historical data isn't completely comparable to recent data.

Plus there's been a change in the demographic mix in public schools.

In addition, winger think tanks publish their own fiddles and measures.

So just to make one "bullet point" about HS graduation rates takes a bit of research & footnoting. It isn't as easy as a bullet point, in fact.

Then, you know, there are state tests, a national test, college entrance tests, international tests -
all with similar complications.

Then there's non-test cultural changes that are sometimes brought in as evidence for educational "decline" -- like the high percent of foreign students in graduate school, for example.

Then there's the data on the effectiveness of the proposed "solutions".

Then there's the data on the folks pushing the "solutions".

Then there's the long history of anti-school propaganda that could be documented -- which began, interestingly enough, at the very point when low-income & minority students started attending colleges & universities in historically significant numbers.

Of course the privatizers don't care about actually educating the public on the issue. They put out any statistical fiddle, out-of-context factoid, or outright lie & the media prints it as though it were gospel, & they have huge resources behind them.

So I start by asking, what decline, what evidence of decline are you talking about, etc., because the universe of items which might be contained in the "simple bullet point" handout you have in mind is much larger than you might imagine.

if you want someone to do the work to make something like that, it's also reasonable to ask what kind of evidence you have in mind.

and i don't think you've read too many of mad flo or my posts, as they're far from "anecdotal".

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. +1

[Smarmie Doofus]

16. Here's a link to recent Diane Ravitch articles.

http://www.dianeravitch.com/articles.html

Hope it helps.


You're right about us losing the pr war.

[roody]

15. Has it really declined? In the old days,

not all children went to school. Today we include all kids.

[luwik]

5. What occupies a childs mind today!

Do not underestimate the sponges that our childs minds are. They are learning! They may not be able to prove it on a single test nor do we sound intelligent with the lingo we use. We have the internet for math and language..... well old english is being phased out. what we have begun to learn, which is great, is intuition. We can interpret what is being said with more efficient and basic symbols. Grammar and syntax arent as necesary anymore. Math is the easiest language in the world what makes it difficult is not being interested. Dont try to force education on a child instead teach the child to ask questions, have them write their own tests, most importantly ask them what they want to learn. Remember Knowledge, Create Imagination. Those are the only concepts children need to learn in life and to balance the two Ideas is what creates a well rounded individual.

You have a great point that children neeed to be well fed to have the mental health that promotes growth. One thing to learn is how good/bad nutrition can affect our mood. The snacks that we have available and school lunches are not sufficient. We need quality food to sustain a growing mind and body. I suggest That if we expect so much from our children that we promote healthier brain foods rich in omega-3 fatty acids omega 6 and omega 9. Conjugated linoleic acids promote the production of muscle from fats. IN order to ensure our food is nutritious we have to look at the source. We eat meats and poultry products from feedlots, in doing so we reduce the nutritional value of the meat/poultry we eat.
In order to get the full satisfaction from cravings we need our livestock to be grassfed, but this will greatly reduce the quantity of meat we can consume.

I recomend reconsidering how we feed our children. Quality meat can replace the quantity of meet. Increasing the Carbohydrates, Fruits and vegetablese we consume will improve the digestion of our meats and help us to grow thoroughly.

these are just my opinions.

here is a link

http://www.grassfedfarms.com/

also, i am alll for non-profits. perhaps the teachers can band together and get some momentum growing in educating the public whilst taking donations finding grants from government sources, in if you have the opportunity to visit farms, talk to ranchers, maybe we can get some incentives for farmers to revert to grassfeeding their livestock for the sake of feeding our children well, generate some revenue for the these purposes. I dont know

[Riftaxe]

11. It was amusing propaganda, i will give you that

But remove your tin foil hat for a min...what if we gave teachers the power to peer review themselves...

Now i was unfortunate enough to attend a high school where everyone's favorite non democratic senator's brother taught in the sociology department *taught is a tough word, he was there and like the drunken lech he is, well...*

No one would call him on his behavior...If allowed and protected, the entire high school staff would have been blowing the whistle on the pervert.

[Riftaxe]

12. Yes, this is in reference to Bernie Sanders (nt)

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. We do have peer review

My only other comment would be to thank you for kicking the thread.