Children should be able to learn at their own pace -- all lessons should be on computer

[txlibdem]

The current educational system is based on a factory model: the straw boss calls the pace and the pions/slaves react and try to keep up --or feel the sting of the lash. In the classroom the teacher has to perform a constant balancing act to go fast enough that the bright students don't get bored and quit school versus going too fast as to leave the slow learners or otherwise challenged students behind.

A better system would be one in which each student progressed at a pace that is right for him or her abilities and skillsets at the moment. Teachers should be a resource, not a knowledge spigot.

Put all lessons on computer, in multiple formats: video, audio, text only, and an interactive mode that helps kids to learn but is fun to do at the same time. Teachers would vote for the best presentation of each topic and that would be the one all American students use. No longer would students in poor or rural schools suffer from lower quality education. Add to that mandatory access for all students to the entire contents of human knowledge so they can seek out additional information on a topic or to better their understanding for whatever reason.

There should be one curriculum for our nation: the disastrous consequences of states making their own rules was exposed with the recent debacle of 10 Texas conservatives rewriting educational curiculum that could affect students in 10 states (due to how text books are published and purchased).

All education should be 100% free and accessible to 100% of American citizens, 100% of the time no matter where in America he or she lives. This digital learning system should include grades k-12 and on up, all the way through PHD.

[panader0]

1. You can't have a sock hop in the gym on the computer.

What about sports, music, social skills?

[txlibdem]

8. You can't have metal shop, drama class, and basket weaving. So what?

And sports? Puh-lease. What good does sports do for the students? Oh, yeah,it's great for the coach who gets freebies from equipment manufacturers and may even be able to ride the coat tails of a gifted athlete all the way to the big time. F sports. Our children need an education and they need to be more physically fit. Schools should offer yoga, pilates, dancer-cize, water-aerobics, and a host of other options that will benefit the students and make them healthy, productive members of society.

Sports causes lifetime debilitating injuries and helps pro sports teams by serving as both a training ground and to weed out the average athletes --free services to the sports industry. My tax dollars should NOT be going to service these billion dollar industries.

To your point that the exception proves the rule... pish tosh! Your argument doesn't hold water.

[panader0]

16. My daughters both played volleyball, basketball and softball

People who say F sports probably never made ateam and are resentful. Sports are beneficial, not just a boon to the "sports industry".

[txlibdem]

17. You're wrong on both counts

I'm so happy for your daughters. They must have been so intellectually challenged by catching the ball then throwing the ball, then catching the ball, then throwing the ball (repeat ad nauseum). Your comment is suitable for a discussion of what parents should be doing with their children after school not a discussion of education in America.

Your feeble attempt at ad hominem is both wrong-headed and just plain wrong. I was on the baseball, football and track teams. I practiced with a friend for the tennis team but other priorities got in the way of actually joining the team. I love to play sports. After school a group of friends from my neighborhood always had a game of some sort going on, football/baseball/soccer/tag in my younger years, and my mommy used to amuse me for hours with the peek-a-boo game (where's mommy? Hello! I see you! ha ha ha ha ha). The point is, these are activities that have no business taking place during school hours, nor being funded by my tax dollars!

What educational benefit does a student get out of being on a sports team? None.

You claim that sports are beneficial but do not say how, nor do you offer any proof. But I do thank you for admitting in the last part "not JUST A BOON TO THE SPORTS INDUSTRY," which tells me you know damn well that school sports ARE a giveaway to the multi-billion dollar sports industry.

[panader0]

19. Um, no

Neither daughter will go on to a pro career in sports. But they did benefit. Teamwork, physical fitness and much more.
Why are you so bitter? Have a rough time in school? My eldest daughter has a full scholorship in biochemical engineering.
Sitting behind a computer for your education is not right. I can remember many of my teachers, although it has been quite some time ago. Some were inspirational, some not. But a computer can not be inspirational.
Nothing wrong with shop or drama classes or art classes either. I have never seen a basket weaving class offered in my four kids' one through 12 education.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. "What good does sports do for the students?"

You're kidding, right?

My father the coach would tell you that it gets the athletes in the school door in the morning. My mother the miser would tell you that it can pay for college. My sister the athlete would bend your ear about teamwork and peer relations.

But I'm not sure they'd be able to speak, with their jaws dropping on the floor.

"What good does sports do for the students?"

Wow. Just wow.

[txlibdem]

21. My father the coach -- who has an economic benefit from the status quo

As do I by extension, as his son who stands to inherit some or all of his accumulated wealth or possessions. You are biased on this topic, obviously, so why would your opinion carry any weight?

One question: why do these things have to be paid for by my taxes? Why take valuable school time and resources away from academic achievement --something the USA is sorely in need of-- for sports?

Is the USA #35 out of 38 in athletic ability? Ahhhhh, NO. But we damn sure are near the bottom of ALL western nations in math and science education, number of engineers and scientists graduating each year, and host of other important statistics. America needs to quit focusing on unimportant things and get to work fixing the infrastructure and the education in our country.

"It gets the athletes in the school door each morning?" You're only reinforcing my point that the public schools --and our tax dollars-- are subsidizing the multi-billion dollar sports industry. Thanks for helping everyone to see that we need to immediately cancel all school sports programs and replace them with fitness programs that will benefit all students, not just the athletes. Our kids need to be getting exercise in order to grow up strong and healthy (and regular exercise helps you learn as well). School sports drains vital funds away from programs that would help all students.

[postulater]

2. And teachers should be the facilitators of learning.

Their skill is in spotting the best way for a person to learn and helping the person make progress.

Knowing how to find the individual's immediate barrier to study is the best use of teachers.

Relegating them to baby-sitters and knowledge repositories is minimizing a teacher's value.

[txlibdem]

10. Thank you

Very insightful.

Your second sentence says it all. Isn't that why teachers choose that profession: to help kids get to the "Ah-ha moment," that split second when it all clicks into place and the child finally understands it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. This would isolate students from all other students

The way you describe it, the only contact the student has with other people is the teacher, who is there as a 'resource', like a help line, when the student thinks they have a problem with the computer course (to which the teacher has to conform). It sounds very impersonal.

[txlibdem]

9. One on one instruction when needed beats the hell out of the impersonal system we have now

The teacher has NO TIME to give one on one to every student every day. It can't be done. Teachers are highly skilled and highly trained but they are not friggin magicians. You can't just make extra time: there are limits for what one human can do in a day. The current system is failing our kids. Look around you at the young people you know, in the coffee shop, at school or work, the mall, wherever --they are not as educated as people in their 30s, 40s and beyond. The educational system is getting WORSE, not better over time.

[EmilyKent]

4. Yes! Absolutely!

That's exactly where we need to go!

[txlibdem]

14. I recall the frustration from my own school years -- then my daughter had the same problem

I often found myself becoming frustrated with the slow pace the teacher had to go: some students in class either were unprepared, hadn't read the material or done the homework, or shouldn't have been at that grade level and the teacher had to go back over and over the same material, material that I read and understood perfectly after reading the chapter the night before. My daughter told me the same things all through her schooling.

Then the bell rang and I went to my next class where I may have been the one who needed a little extra time on whatever subject. No student learns all things at the same speed, we all have our strengths and weaknesses and only self-paced study allows a student to achieve his or her potential.

I also think the educational criteria in this country have been dumbed down far too much. America scores far too low on standardized tests when compared to other countries. No wonder we're suffering economically. Standards should be tough and there should be one standard for the entire country: we are one nation, not 13 (or 50) colonies.

[RKP5637]

5. My first thought was what an absolutely boring educational experience.

Your model I agree with ... but social interaction face-to-face should also be included IMO.

[txlibdem]

13. When appropriate to the topic at hand, yes.

Studying philosophy on the computer might be possible up to a certain point, and then discussion groups can form, perhaps impromptu groups whose membership and location varies with the changing needs of the students --always guided by a teacher of course.

I don't disagree with you but the vast majority of what children need to master before sprouting their wings should be done this way, at that student's pace rather than the pace set by the school board or arbitrary time constraints. You must read and understand Descartes (for example) before you can discuss and internalize his ideas. And an interactive computerized lesson would definitely NOT be boring. Being chained to your chair, forced to listen to the teacher drone on and on about Nihilism versus Puritanism (or whatever) is what kills students thirst for knowledge.

[madrchsod]

6. won`t work

[txlibdem]

11. will work

eom

[stray cat]

7. Then we don't need teachers or at least can cut way back

although medical research for a PhD is a little tough to do on a computer screen


Also some of those first graders may not feel like sitting at their computer at home by themselves while their parents work

[txlibdem]

12. We would need far more teachers, not fewer

Whatever makes you think that teachers could be dispensed with? We need far more teachers, not fewer! Allowing the students to go at their own pace presents an even bigger challenge to a teacher: he or she will have to be fluent in the subject area covering 3, 4 or even more of the current grade levels because some students will zoom through their studies and others will need more time.

We will need to rethink the "classroom" and maybe hold school in rooms the size of a school gymnasium, with 10 teachers and 100 students. That way each student will have access to a teacher who is best at the same level the student is at: some teachers are masters at 5th grade but will need more training to go above that level while some are ok on up to PHD levels, each student needs to have access to the teacher best equipped to help them with the topic they're studying no matter how advanced.

[Hannah Bell]

22. lol. lab monitors, you mean. pay them minimum wage for some "certificate"

they earn in 6 months & call them "teachers".

shilling for gates

[txlibdem]

23. So bitter for such a handsome young man (according to your avatar at least)

I wish I could ease the pain in your soul. I cannot. Please take solace in the knowledge that the entire Capitalist world is now embroiled in the same class warfare to which you are about to be subjected.

For me, my job was outsourced over a decade ago so I had the jump on you by quite a bit. Why don't you think of the past 10 years as your lucky break, your fortune at landing in a safe place for so long. The rest of us Americans have cameras on us at work, we have our phone calls recorded, we have our emails invaded and available to the bosses at any time. We have had our wages slashed to half what they were in the 1990s and we still have zero job security. (added on edit:) And we have crappy benefits that cover less and less with each passing year, copays that just go higher and higher despite the increase in things no longer even covered. I'm sorry that you believe you may be joining the rest of soon. I don't think things will get quite that bad for you, though. Take heart!

The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long. And you have burned so very brightly, Hannah Bell!

[Hannah Bell]

24. lol.

[txlibdem]

26. Well, praise Jesus! You DO still have a sense of humor!

Glad to see it.

[southerncrone]

33. This teacher has experienced all of the above, too. We are not

exempt from the perils of the workplace. I can't remember EVER having my 25 minute lunch w/o some type of work required on top of walking students to cafeteria, over 300 ft each way. Can you go to the bathroom at will while at work? I cannot.

[txlibdem]

15. The Digital University: A Digital Future?

The Digital University: A Digital Future?

A forum held at CUNY on the future of education and how best to include digital learning:
http://fora.tv/2010/04/21/The_Digital_University_A_Digital_Future

[noamnety]

25. I couldn't tell if this was parody or not.

You started out with each student needing to learn at their own pace; a basic understanding that educational needs are individual and one size doesn't fit all. I agree with that.

But then you switched to exactly the opposite, trying to standardize everything. Teachers vote on one presentation that all students use, one curriculum for everyone.

Students don't just learn at their own pace; they learn in their own style. For some, computer learning is best for intellectual and emotional reasons. For some, face to face interaction is best and they need the strong relationship with a live teacher to keep their motivation.

[txlibdem]

27. Thank you for asking that question

I didn't really mean that only one video would be available per topic. I'll have to go back and reread the post you're talking about, I didn't think that's what I wrote and it certainly isn't what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

The point I was trying to make was that the presentation of the content would be voted on by someone other than some brainless bureaucrat (or even worse, 10 idiots from Texas who want to remove Thomas Jefferson from history). And who better than teachers to know which presentation best conveys the material while being both engaging and interesting.

As to students learning in their own style I take that as an endorsement of my idea and an indictment of our current "teacher spouting facts in front of a room of students" system of edutainment. Your point is right on the money, just so you don't misunderstand my meaning. You,re right that there are different types of learners. Most students need a combination of two or more of these learning styles in order to get the most out of their education. The only question is exactly how many there are:

This person says there are three: (but they give great examples of how they differ)
http://www.worldwidelearn.com/education-articles/how-do-you-learn.htm

These two say there are 7 different types of learning:
http://www.tecweb.org/styles/gardner.html
http://www.lessontutor.com/sm1.html

Our current educational system works best for only a small percentage of students. Giving students the ability to choose how they receive the information, and to change it at any time, and they are working at their own pace remember so they have total freedom to go over it as many times as they want, to watch the video then read the text or read it then listen to the lesson audio only. Or, maybe someone a lot smarter than I will come up with a way that students can interact physically with the information in addition to the other methods. See below.

One possibility is called "Claymatter" or "catoms" which is being studied by Carnegie Mellon University. In a nutshell, it's an interactive grouping of a million tiny robots (or more accurately, computers that can move and connect to each other). The end result is that a student can form these catoms into a representation of whatever they are studying.

Another option would be to incorporate something like the Xbox Kinect, which would enable a student to interact with a computerized lesson or a 3d environment.

I love it! Thank you for bringing up my mistake --it caused me to actually think.

[noamnety]

28. I think you're still missing a piece, though we agree on a lot.

I'm thinking you and I probably learn just fine through computers, otherwise we wouldn't be drawn to message board formats.

But some people do not do well with that format at all, not whether the online information is audio, or video, or message forums, etc. I think the choices need to include the face to face format as well as online delivery.

I prefer online, my masters was online, I know students who do far better with online format. Myself, I don't get why someone would want to spend all the commute time and expense driving back and forth to a campus just to spend an hour day dreaming while an instructor or other students drone on and on. That was my experience. But I also know some of my colleagues tried online classes and freaked out about the lack of interaction and for them they needed to see a person and have "real" conversations. I view my online relationships with people as real relationships and I can connect with people that way just fine. Not everyone has that same sense though - some feel like they are talking with a dehumanized computer, not a person, and they get stressed out by things like file directories or technical glitches to the point where the stress interferes with the learning. Maybe they need the actual eye contact as a form of reassurance or connection.

[Hannah Bell]

29. he's not talking about adults.

[noamnety]

30. Yes, I understood that. (nt)

[txlibdem]

31. All of the young folks I know are more comfortable online than face to face

Perhaps the Microsoft Kinect type device supporting a 3D learning environment could be used for remote student-teacher interactions if the student requests, or if the teacher notices that student is not progressing as well as could be. It could also be useful for virtual classes, like virtual wood shop, virtual sculpting class, etc.

[noamnety]

34. Most of the students I know are comfortable online.

but there are some who really aren't, and some who couldn't handle a virtual wood shop or sculpture class. It's funny you used those as examples because I taught a sculpture course last year that had a wood shop component. Some of the girls in particular freaked out at having to use a circular saw and I know absolutely that if they'd had a remote course they would have had their dads or male friends do that portion of the work for them. They tried even within the classroom to get away with that but I made it clear early on I was watching them like a hawk and there would be no dudes doing the carpentry work for the girls in my class, and no girls doing the sewing/fabric work for the guys. Being a woman and a former sgt I was able to lay down the law on that score.

With some of the girls, it took me leading them to the circular saw, putting on hand on their shoulder and the other hand on top of their hand, and saying "okay now we are going to raise and lower the saw without turning it on ..." "okay, now we are just going to keep it in the up position and turn it on just so you can hear the noise and get over the jumping reaction before you even start to cut anything with it." Even like that, there were a couple who screamed when it first started. I strongly believe it took me as a woman in the room showing them that it wasn't men's work, and me physically going through the process with human contact to reassure them that this was something they could do as well as any of the boys.

Also, my experience is probably colored by teaching in a school with a strong choir, a dance department, instrumental music - the performing arts often require ensemble work and physical interaction - a dance teacher moving a student's leg into the proper position, a band instructor coming up behind a student and lifting their shoulders up to improve their posture. Even in the math tutoring I do, the face to face contact lets me see from a student's eyes when they get it or when I need to back up and explain things a different way. And in the computer lab, I can watch a student's work habits to correct things on the spot, like when they are doing something that will work in 15 steps, but I can show them how to do it more efficiently with one step. It's why with my beginning students I won't let them take work home as homework and give me a finished product. That's a great way to find out how good the parents are with computers - I often find that "homework" gets done with a high skill level, and the students can't duplicate the process in the classroom. The parents get so "helpful" they want to do the work for the kids and turn in something that gets an A, and the kid ends up with learned dependency issues instead of skills they can use independently.

[txlibdem]

35. I just got my wife a new camera for Christmas

It has a setting on it that will automatically take picture after picture --only when the people are smiling. Air Force pilot's helmets have a sensor which can follow their eyes to target an enemy jet. Microsoft Kinect can key in on your body posture to change the interaction between you and the video game.

I'm sorry that some of the girls in your wood shop class didn't really want to do the "man's work" with the power tools. My daughter is an only child and she wanted to hang out with me while I was doing all kinds of work with tools and I've never, not once, seen her squeal or shy away from doing a tough job. Some girls want to avoid stepping outside the social norms, either to avoid the possibility of ridicule or so as not to lose "social status" within their little clique or in general. The situation you describe has no bearing on how educational content is delivered. They could just as easily be watching a series of videos with women using these tools and carefully going over all the tools' features, then don a VR helmet and force feedback sensor gloves and interact with a computer generated set of tools to build up their confidence and skills. For the general student population there may never be a need to actually get their hands on the power equipment, since they have learned all that they need to learn via the computer. Now if some of them go on to carpentry school later on they will have the basics and the school will never have had to purchase the equipment, dedicated the limited classroom space to it, etc.

By the way, the social structure inside a school can often reinforce an environment of bullying and may need to be looked at in the future for its deleterious effect on the quality of education given to each student.

[txlibdem]

39. Times have moved on yet our school system is an 1850 factory model

Why? Whose interests does that serve? Certainly not the interests of the students.

America has saved itself from irrelevancy multiple times over the past 150 years by new technologies, tossing out the old way of doing things and inventing new ways that are better, cheaper, faster, etc.

And almost all of those improvements that we cherish today were a reaction to either a crisis in the country or because of a well-defined goal our leaders chose (the moon landing stands out as one that has fueled so many new technologies that it's difficult to actually count them all).

Admit it or not, we are in an education crisis today that is well along in a downhill slide that will destroy our society. We can either sing a happy song because "we're moving" or we can open our eyes and realize that we are going in the WRONG direction, find solutions and let the dead weight of today's educational system fall to the wayside so we can get back on track, reverse the decline and start rebuilding a technological society with scientists, engineers and skilled tradesmen.

[southerncrone]

32. It's already happening. We have a virtual high school within our

school for those wanting to graduate early for a variety of reasons, transfers who are behind, & those wanting to take classes not offered at our school. The majority of the students are "behavior" problems, or have trouble socially.

If ALL students went to this, social skills, which are already sorely lacking, would simply become extinct. School is about much more that "gaining information", it is about becoming a FUNCTIONING member of society. This includes being able to deal & cope with other people. You cannot gain those skills interacting w/a computer.

Next step.....No need for school buildings w/computerized training. Govt could save A LOT of $ doing away w/maintaining schools & not needing to provide transportation. Parents would need to stay home & supervise their kids....not something most of them want to do today. We would need to enlist a lot of home auditors to make sure kids aren't home alone unsupervised. Heck we need that now.
This would just open the door for more kids to be neglected & abused.

Wow! a neocon dream!
.

[txlibdem]

36. You're contradicting yourself it seems

You start off stating that some variety of virtual high school works right there in your school. Then you state that it would be disastrous for the students. Which is it?

And please tell me exactly what part of developing social skills does sitting in a room with 30 other bored teens listening to a teacher drone on about (whatever) subject? You're arguing just for the sake of arguing it seems.

Neocon dream? No. The schools we have TODAY are the Neo-Con dream, failing to educate our kids, failing to teach critical thinking, forcing 30% (50% of minority) students to drop out of school altogether. Look at all those uneducated, easily manipulated, low skill and low wage worker slaves your fabulous schools have churned out!

[southerncrone]

38. I am not contradicting myself.

Just as one-size-fits-all seldom works in other areas, neither does it in education. Our VH is a pilot program. I did not say it was "working", only that it exists. It is a smoke-screen to get the graduation rate up. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. Most of the kids in it would be at our alternative school because of behavior problems, i.e. they cannot exist peacefully among their peers. Because our alternative school is overcrowded, this is a way to "get the behavior problems out" of the regular classrooms, & out of our school more quickly while not expanding our alternative HS. Most of these would drop-out because they have socialization problems (anger issues, emotional issues, multiple family issues, etc.) which are being ignored. When these kids "graduate", they will still have these problems. They will still struggle in dealing w/others. Instead of placing them in a computer lab, we should be focusing on helping them cope with their problems, so they might integrate into the "real" world in a successful manner. Diploma, or not, if they can't get along w/their fellow workers, they will not keep jobs. More serious situations are likely to develop as a result.

I also facilitate a distance-learning class, projected via video camera from another school in our county to our school. My students feel there is a big difference in having the instructing teacher IN THE SAME ROOM vs. over the video. I asked them what made that so, but they couldn't really verbalize it, but said the "presence" of the instructing teacher made a difference to them. These types of classes are common on the college level, but we are talking about HS kids. I suspect younger kids would feel even stronger about having that "presence".

I am not saying that computerized learning systems don't have their place, I use them frequently in my discipline (Business & IT), but they should be a complementary form of instruction.....not the sole vehicle. Students still need to INTERACT with EACH OTHER & TEACHERS.

Educators have been pigeon-holed by administrators & legislators into struggling to present classes at all. We are drowning in paperwork, REQUIRED extra-curricular activities, & other NON-PRODUCTIVE activities that don't serve to educate kids (you mentioned sports--there are many more), REQUIRED pre-designed curriculum which is often not realistic (& boring). It is getting worse every year. If we could do what we were HIRED to do....TEACH.....you would see better-educated kids. Much of what is required of us comes from administrators shoving down part of their responsibilities onto the backs of the classroom teachers. (I average 11-12 hr days.)

Worse, is the "presenting a front" to the community & legislators under the guise of "educating" the kids. So much of what happens today in education is to basically maintain the status quo.... make sure certain administrators keep their jobs. More time is spent crafting a structure to enable this than improving the schools. The kids are simply pawns. It is an absolutely sad state of affairs.

Then...there is the lack of support from parents (not all, but way too many). I have many students who go weeks w/o seeing their parents....some have been thrown out, some have moved out & are living w/friends' families, some are homeless. Many live in hellholes because of drug &/or alcohol abuse, mental illness, or extreme poverty.....social problems that are not being addressed & increasing every day. These kids do not have good social role models & need the experience of "playing well w/others" that they can get in school.

There is a wide variety of schools across this nation filled with individuals. Virtual classes might work well in some, while not in others. Again, one-size does not fit all. Should it be an option....probably; mandatory, no. And....it must be put in place with THE BEST INTEREST OF THE STUDENTS IN MIND, not to white-wash a bad situation. Can we depend on that happening? Doubtful, from my experience. (Not that we shouldn't be hopeful for positive change.)

BTW, I have more to do than argue for the sake of arguing. "Arguing" is not something I waste my time doing. I state my opinion or relay experiences. Take them or leave them. And, those are OUR fabulous schools.....we all have a role to play. Citizens can start by ending "teacher bashing" & investigating what is REALLY going on in education, starting at the decision-making level. Teachers & STUDENTS must live by the decisions handed down by administrators & legislators.

[w4rma]

37. That is stupid. (nt)