if we set our expectations higher, we would perform at a higher level

[txlibdem]

Bill Gates, Sr. calls for more competition in the U.S. public school system. Gates says, "We have very low expectations of our public education system...if we set our expectations higher, we would perform at a higher level."

Complete video at:
http://fora.tv/2009/06/17/Bill_Gates_Sr_Showing_Up_For_Life

I'll say this: having low educational standards in this country certainly hasn't helped our students when compared to students from other western nations. Say what you will about this man but he is right on that point.

[dkf]

1. Agree 100%

We need to expect more from everyone.

[txlibdem]

3. It won't make the kids happy... but is that our only job?

Aren't we, the parents, supposed to be expecting our kids to achieve their potential (whatever that may be: scientist, artist, sculptor, master craftsman... whatever). Letting a child slide by in school is doing them a great disservice, IMO.

[Davis_X_Machina]

8. Making the kids happy *is* our only job..

...now that our job has been aligned with the jobs of everyone else in the service sector.

Consumer satisfaction. No unhappy customers.

I am the first person some of my students have ever heard, and this at the age of 14 or 15, tell them. "No. That answer is wrong. That's incorrect. That's shoddy work. How deeply you feel about the rightness or wrongness of your answer is irrelevant. What you wear, or what your daddy drives, is irrelevant to the quality of your work. Your answer is still incorrect. Your work is still shoddy."

Sometimes they cry. Sometimes they call my boss.

[txlibdem]

13. Your students have been very poorly served thus far. Thank you for trying

If only all their teachers up to this point had given as much of a crap about them as you do; enough to tell them they actually need to think, to learn facts and then it's play time, not before...

The decision to quit teaching children critical thinking skills was the worst, IMO.

[Warpy]

5. We also need a general diploma at 16

instead of expecting kids who aren't academically talented and want to get on with life to sit and suffer through 2 extra years of it. Europe does it this way and they're way ahead of us. We could solve our dropout problem overnight and stop writing these kids off and keeping them in the underclass.

Kids who stick it out would get academic diplomas that would entitle them to apply for higher academic education.

And yes, we need to raise the standards by a lot. Have you ever read high school textbooks from the 1920s?

[dkf]

6. Start working at 16?

Are they emancipated too?

[Warpy]

9. They already are working in most cases

and emancipation, as you know, is a separate issue.

However, not throwing them away with the label "dropout" is a step in the right direction, is it not?

[txlibdem]

10. My mom was born in 1921, they made her learn Latin in junior high school

She passed away at age 84 a few years ago, never went to college, but she had a far better education than I did. It seems like the schools just keep dropping the standards a little bit year after year... Pathetic.

I have another discussion that ties in with your question:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x30396

Are the kids dropping out because they're dumb? Or is it the school that needs to learn how to teach them? All students do not learn at the same pace, yet we stuff 30 to 50 kids in a classroom and force them all to march to beat of the same drum. It makes more sense to me that each student should be able to study at his or her own pace --and get assistance from a highly educated and highly skilled teacher only when they need it. I wonder how many students give up because the teacher either can't or doesn't feel like trying hard enough to reach them, to bring them up to speed with the rest of the class. Just a thought.

On the larger issue, there may be students who want to quit school early and start working so they can get a car and impress some girl or buy some stuff... but should we let students do whatever they want? Or should we, as parents and as society, impose some expectations on them that cannot be waived so easily?

[Warpy]

12. Kids can drop out at 16 now. Schools are not prisons

although they do feel that way from time to time.

The GED is available to anyone who quits early and wants to complete the work, get a diploma, and move on.

The general diploma should be at 16. Expecting all kids to be good academics and soldier on until 18 is clearly unrealistic. That's why we have dropout rates of 50% and higher in many schools.

[txlibdem]

15. Yes, but why aren't you asking them WHY they want to drop out of school

That should be the first question asked of them.

BTW, I am also free to shoot myself in the foot. And to cut off my own arm with a butter knife. Read some of my posts and ask yourself if I've done either of those things. And why not? Because I know that would be harmful for me in the long run. Freedom does not come free. We all need to make sure that each and every citizen of this Democracy is educated as much as possible so they will be less likely to be swayed by idiots on TV or hate radio. These aren't optional in a functioning Democracy, and a Democracy will not long survive without an intelligent and well educated voting population.

[Warpy]

20. What we are doing now is not working

Is. Not. Working.

It doesn't matter what the kids toss off as reasons. Of course they'll sound stupid to adults. Behind all those surface reasons of wanting to work full time to get a car or being bored is a kid who has no talent for or interest in academics and wants to get the hell on with his life and chances are very good that he's right most of the time.

Either you bull on ahead and try to bully these kids to stay in school, in which case they'll just ditch anyway, or you give them a general diploma that allows them to do more than be janitors or dig ditches, like train for a skilled trade.

I'm recognizing what is and going with that. You want to force kids to be what you think they ought to be. Your way hasn't worked. Time to try mine.

[txlibdem]

23. You fail to see the forest for the trees, my friend

The child isn't "a kid who has no talent." He or she is a child whose teachers failed to take the time to help him or her get up to speed and they got so far behind that it was an embarrassment just going to class each day, and an exercise in extreme frustration. Cause and effect: check up on it when you have time.

Give each child the ability to study at his how pace and give him access to the brightest minds in the nation starting from kindergarten and you will not see a child with "no talent" you'll see a child who had some rough patches but worked through them.

I'm not saying to turn it on like a light switch for all students. I'm saying to start with the kindergarten age students and any other student in higher grades that wants to switch. Those that do not want to switch can stay with the status quo.

[Warpy]

25. Baloney

Face it, the world isn't just the way you want it to be and kids have talents that are different from your own and those talents don't include academic study.

You just want to continue doing the wrong thing over and over again and expecting a different result and you know what that means, don't you?

[Hannah Bell]

26. yeah, the bill gates model will be better. lol. dream on.

the only kids that are going to get tlc from kindeygarden are those whose parents can pay for it.

the masses are going to get bigger classes, cut-rate revolving teachers, & canned curricula.

you folks can dream up as many lovely schemes as you like.

the money men aren't listening; they have their own dreams, & *your* children don't figure in them except as profit centers.

[txlibdem]

27. Poor sweet Hannah, I knew thee not well

I understand your cynicism when it comes to big companies trying to make money off of our childrens' schooling. Like the text book industry which is a multi-billion dollar industry with a captive customer base that has zero ability to "shop around" for better deals --it's always take it or leave it when it comes to buying books for your schools. The CEOs of these textbook publishers are the cynics when it comes to school. All they see are $$$ Dollar Signs $$$ instead of children in those seats.

The only thing that keeps this current corrupt educational system we have today is the over-the-top hard work and dedication of the teachers. Every other aspect of the educational system is an impediment to the success of our children. The teachers are the only, the singular thing that is keeping this leaky, rusting education freighter from plunging under the waves is the kick-ass job our teachers are doing.

I want the educational system to get out of the way of teaching our kids and provide the best we, as a nation, can provide and provide it to each and every child no matter where they live, no matter what the "budget" of the school is. And by the way, budgets only get cut for the children and teachers --a recent report shows school administration gets nice, fat pay raises even in troubled times. Wonderful job if you can get it.

And please don't forget to include in your definition of "the money men" the multi-billion dollar text book industry. You are fighting, and that's good, but don't forget to include all the villains, not just the one on tv.

[Hannah Bell]

29. bullshit.

[txlibdem]

30. You'll have to do better than a one word post

Isn't there some kind of etiquette to online posting?

[Davis_X_Machina]

16. This is moot...

... "but should we let students do whatever they want?"

The answer is 'Of course. Their parents vote.'

'Power without Responsibility, I'd like you to meet Responsibility without Power. I'm sure you have lots to talk about, and will get along nicely.'

[CTyankee]

18. Hell, back in the 50s I was required to take 2 years of Latin before I could take French or Spanish.

And this was in a public school in Texas...altho I hated the Latin I have to admit of all my high school courses, Latin was the most important in terms of my reading and writing ability...

[Davis_X_Machina]

21. Planê;...

...praeceptorēs tuī optimī fuērunt, et eōrum vestigia tēcum manent usque ad praesens.

[CTyankee]

22. some of this I get but also because I have some Italian now...however

would you please translate.

Thanks!

[Davis_X_Machina]

24. Clearly you had excellent teachers.

...since traces of them remain with you right up until now.

[txlibdem]

31. Excellent teachers leave their traces on you for life

That is so right, you said it exactly. Our educational system has been reducing standards for decades, more parents have to work two or three jobs, schools and society pushes our kids to focus on sports so they get what amounts to a free pass all the way through school (just listen to interviews with most of the "Pro" ball players for you proof of that. So it is only by the exceptional work and constant struggle of our teachers that we've been able to prevent collapse thus far.

But we're at the breaking point right now: the ignorant and easily manipulated greatly outnumber the citizens who have the ability to think critically. Does anybody think this is an accident?!?

[Davis_X_Machina]

2. The problem is, as Mr. Dooley pointed out a century ago:

"In a Democracy, ivry man is as good as his neighbor, and often a sight better..."

Setting a bar means some will not clear it, and many of those who will not clear it, or whose children will not clear it, will vote.

Public education is by definition the education the public wants, or will settle for. It wasn't imposed from without by an occupying power.

[txlibdem]

4. I may have misunderstood your post

Are you advocating for NO educational standards, lest some children "do not clear the bar?"

[Davis_X_Machina]

7. No, the reverse.

There is by definition no constituency for excellence in a majoritarian world. So we won't ever see policies leading to it in coming from the political sphere.

The push has to come from elsewhere.

[txlibdem]

11. We've been waiting for school administrators and maybe teachers to do this...

It's been about 50 years now... We're still waiting for those inside the educational system to "solve those problems."

[Davis_X_Machina]

14. Every time it's tried...

...it's filleted, and watered down, and then everyone's kid passes and they go back to sleep. Seen it happen with Coalition of Essential Schools schools in this state, in a number of towns.

Wait ten years, and you're back to the old model, with a cherry on top. But the school board that replaced the poor, usually accidental, rebels who backed the change? -- they keep getting re-elected for their role in re-instating the status quo.

Stuff we know works, but costs too much, or doesn't look like a traditional school, or rubs voters the wrong way for some reason. Wars over things like what the report card looks like.

There's a reason why attempts to move the stone always come from foundations, or higher academia, or philanthropic millionaires. Those with the ideas don't have the resources, and those with the resources don't have the ideas.

[txlibdem]

17. It is not in the interests of the powers that be within the education machine

A new program is trotted out every couple of years --far too soon to even tell if the old program was working or not. This is by accident? I don't think so. If there is a new program brought in before the effects of the old program can be measured then there can be no accountability: nobody loses their nice cushy job, their paycheck or their retirement. Oh, the kids? The what?

[Ozymanithrax]

19. I think Capitalism as a good model for Microsoft...

and an abysmal model for schools. Students are not a product that we can ship to China to be made for the cheapest possible price. When we try to reduce the cost of the process we just make more poor students.

[txlibdem]

28. So we're agreed: we need to stop using textbooks and put all education on the computer

Thanks for making my point.

The multi-billion dollar text book industry is raking in such an obscene amount of money that could be better used to hire teachers.

Let's end the nightmare of having NO CHOICE in textbook purchases and give students the choice of where and how they get their information from, all of which is informed by the national testing standards --standards that set the bar high enough so that our students will be ready for college when the graduate (they are NOT today), and so that they will be smarter than the other western nations' children (not ranking almost at the bottom as they are today).