Seriously. As an LGBT person, why should I remain a member of this party?

[readmoreoften]

I can do a lot of good by spending more time trying to get local progressive Democrats--and other real progressives elected--and just join with others to publicly side-step the presidential election. I could also go more good by being involved in labor, working class issues, and not affiliating with a party. Obama has only made two moves that aren't--in my opinion--no worse than a Republican would make.

Am I contributing to the abuse of LGBT people by giving false friends who use us my vote for being the 'lesser evil'? This isn't really just about LGBT either. It's about having a voice as a progressive. If we threatened to sit the election out--the way the religious right do--wouldn't we push politicians to the left?

(I'm only asking other LGBT people, progressives, and socialists. I know very well the opinion of straight centrists who want my vote so that they can tell me to shut up.)

[jonnyblitz]

1. I am about ready to bolt the DEM party SHITHOLE.

i never was that loyal anyways considering i can't stand right wing jackasses and the DEM party is INFESTED with them.

[readmoreoften]

4. Even when I was organizing labor, the Democrats didn't do a damn thing for us.

And that was in NY.

[truedelphi]

23. And they do damn little for any person who works in the USA and

Doesn't manage a hedge fund (before they spend most of the day out golfing or playing the ponies, etc)

I am curious - you say there are two picks that Obama made that don't bug you - which are those??

I am okay with Hillary as SOS, but the rest strike me as awful.

Google Geithner, and Rubin. And then ask me why I oppose them.

[readmoreoften]

25. One pick: labor. She seems okay. The other "thing" he's doing is the public works project.

Although I wonder if it will be run by KBR or something similar.

[truedelphi]

28. You and I are on exactly the same page.

With the same exact concerns about KBR...

[yardwork]

2. This is something I'm pondering myself.

[Speck Tater]

3. Deleted: I'm a straight centrist, so what I think doesn't matter. nt

[nomorenomore08]

10. And what exactly will the current crop of Dems do about any of that?

Honestly, to me they seem like a bunch of wishy-washy cowards rolling over and playing fetch for the post-Reagan right-wing establishment. Sure, I voted for Obama, and I'd vote for him again, but that doesn't mean I think he or his party has all the answers. Not even remotely.

[readmoreoften]

12. I said, no straight centrists. But here's your answer.

All those things matter to me. And the democratic party has been an epic fail on all issues you mentioned. And Obama's appointments continue that tradition.

He is for war in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
He is for domestic spying.
He appointed an SEC insider to regulate the SEC.
He appointed someone who is for charter schools and the privatization of education.
As a union activist, I have UP CLOSE AND IN PERSON seen the NOTHING that the Dem party does for labor. Although I do approve of his pick.
Larry Summers is a sexist and heavily rumored to be involved in naked short selling. The worst of the worst.
Eric Holder is a disgrace who championed Chiquita's right to use paramilitary thugs to kill union activists in South America.

I'd vote for Democrats if they delivered on ANY of the above issues. But I see little substantive difference, thanks. If there were I'd be happy to be a Democrat again.

[DonEBrook]

16. The thing is, important as all those issues are, they don't really cut to the core of our

most inner being. It's kinda like the difference between somebody TPing your house and jamming a 9 iron up your butt.

[readmoreoften]

19. They cut to the core of my being. But it's a strawman because the Dems don't stand for those issues.

[DonEBrook]

26. Which makes it all the worse.

The guy who said "stand for nothing, fall for anything" must have had precognition of ... uh, ... us. :shrug:

[Jamastiene]

20. What has our party done that has had any affect on those issues

other than to curtail progress by standing with Bush for 8 years and spouting off shit like, "Impeachment is off the table?"

I mean, really, our party has been usurped by right wing ideologues and sycophants who do NOTHING to stand up for our issues, INCLUDING those issues you listed. It's all about the money and power with them. So few of them are really fighting for us. The ones who are get called leprechauns and gnomes and are ridiculed as not "feasible."

If not now, when?
If not in the last 8 years when they could have at least voted against something even if they were defeated, when?

Never. Until we make them listen to us, they'll continue making bad political moves that hurt our party and hurt our people.

You can't stop this movement. We aren't backing down. We are sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Either lead, follow, or move out of the way.

[derby378]

5. What sort of deal do you think you'll get from the Republicans?

The Greens have been neutralized by the Democrats' push towards renewable energy and higher fuel economy standards for automobiles. The Libertarians have had plenty of time to make headway by now, and I don't think they ever will. Any other political party isn't even worth mentioning in this context.

Obama screwed up. Big time. But just ask your Democratic neighbors if they think you should just sit down and shut up. I don't think any of mine would.

[Clovis Sangrail]

6. yes

working locally is better for your soul anyways.

bye
:hi:

[DBoon]

7. Party-based electoral politics follows but does not lead

for progressives to get elected, there needs to be a pre-existing base of community and workplace organizations representing progressive consituencies.

No politician is going to move farther than the base that elected her/him, at least no politician that expects to stay in office long (note that stealth "christian" school board members tend to turn over VERY quickly).

We need to build organizations with numbers and strength to push politicians from the left.

Grass-roots organizations can also perform valuable educational efforts, work in developing a progressive popular culture, and provide mutual support. Politicians can pass laws, but there is much more to reforming scoiety than this.

Go for it - you are strengthening the Democratic Party, not weakening it

[Idealism]

8. the LGBT community is in a precarious situation

the republicans know you won't ever vote for them, with their known hatred for gays and such, and the democrats think they can count on the GOP's hatred to keep you voting democratically. This gives them leverage to not bring up issues important to LGBT'ers because theres nowhere else to run, really. I hope this will soon pass, because civil rights shouldn't ever be put on the back burner.

On the other hand, every politician/political party will do things that many of us might not like, and some people say didn't go far enough. There will be disappointment in everyones life at some time, but the key here is to voice your concerns and try to initiate dialogue. You are doing no favors to yourself or your community by simply excommunicating yourself from politics. If no one is left to speak up for you, who will do it?

[readmoreoften]

13. Well, to start, we can speak for ourselves, and no one represents us NOW.

[yardwork]

The OP wasn't talking about "excommunicating" himself from politics.

There are other options beyond the Republicans and Democrats. I've always been against third-party voting, but maybe I've been a wimp.

I've only got one life to live. Do I live it going along with the wimpy Democrats, or strike out in a more radical way?

[Idealism]

33. Lets not kid ourselves

Not voting for Democrats is not being politically involved. Everything you stand for is loathed by most Republicans already so you can't really go there. Third party candidates last election got what-- less than 1% of the vote?

Thats no choice at all, which is why I say the entire community is in a bad spot :/

[yardwork]

34. I'm not feeling that discouraged.

[readmoreoften]

35. "Not voting for Democrats is not being politically involved?"

I think there are many, many ways to cause political change in this country. I'd argue that union organizers who don't vote for Democrats do more to change American than any voter who shoved a lever for Obama and stopped questioning him because he has a D after his name.

[Idealism]

38. Thats pretty obvious, isn't it?

In our plurality to win Electoral system, two parties will always reign. Good luck winning any seats, and thus any influence over the political spectrum, by endorsing third party candidates.

What ways can you 'change this country' outside of electing like-minded officials (if you can get the votes to)? Taking your case to the SCOTUS is probably the only way you will get Prop 8 over turned, but outside of that how will you not be marginalizing your concerns by promising not to vote? That makes no sense. It is pretty obvious you are being temporarily blinded by your disdain for what has happened to the LGBT community, and that is definately understandable, but this eye-for-an-eye mentality is counter productive and will not serve you well.

[readmoreoften]

42. Where are these "like-minded Democrats"?

I don't know if you bothered to notice, but I didn't endorse any other political party. There are ways to create political change without parties. In the US, it may be the ONLY way to change anything. No political shift to the left--or even substantive change-- has been created through the Democratic party in decades. The best that has been done is staving off the worst that can be done by the sociopathic dregs of our society.

The religious right has power because they giveth support AND taketh support away. We only giveth. Hence we have no representation.

[Idealism]

44. The Religious Right has power because they have bigger numbers

Numbers is everything. Think about this, even with over double the population of the LGBT community, it took decades of fighting for civil rights in the Supreme Court, threats from the government, and political displays to get African Americans their due place in America, and to this day, over 50 years after the Jim Crow laws were struck down, we have open racism and hatred against "the black menace."

Civil rights aren't freely given, they must be fought over. If you chose to sit out supporting a party, you don't really have a right to chastise the decisions that party makes, especially when it affects your rights.

[readmoreoften]

47. They don't have bigger numbers. They're 30% of the population. They are more organized

and militant.

I have the right to criticize the Democratic party for not running anything but corporate swine who represent corporate interests. If I VOTE for said swine, I have no right to complain. And since I voted, I'm pretty disgusted with myself.

Whatever. Your opinion is noted.

[glowing]

9. You are where so many progressives are every year.. AND really

grassroots is the only way to go.. get organized on the local levels. Get truly progressive people elected into office from the start. Then when they get to the top levels we get real change.. not some fairy dance of believing in something.

[Oregone]

11. Because the Green Party is evil

They started the Iraq War. The are complicit in Bush's crimes. Are you a traitor?

[readmoreoften]

15. Uh, who gives a fuck about the Green Party. And the Democratic Party is equally complicit.

[jonnyblitz]

24. people like you are why i can't stand the DEMs. nt

[Oregone]

48. People like me?

Those who make unwanted, inappropriate sarcastic jokes?

[noiretextatique]

39. the green party did no "start the iraq" war...bush, inc

a criminal enterprise, did. they were allowed to do that by another criminal enterprise, SCOTU

[mitchtv]

14. take the pledge

I support only candidates who are are marriage equality.

[John Q. Citizen]

17. Dude, take over your local party with real progressives. It's fun and it can be easier

than you think if you plan it out ahead.

Then you can pass resolutions. And send representatives.

I think Obama is too afraid to stand up to Warren and tell him exactly where and why he disagrees with him. He is fearful of specifically and explicitly addressing the bigoted and misogynistic world view and statements of his friend.

[readmoreoften]

21. I understand how you can think that Obama is just afraid.

I personally think he is simply siding with the stronger faction and cynically triangulating us knowing that we have nowhere else to go.

[John Q. Citizen]

31. His behavior is cowardly. Perhaps it's also cynical?

There are more progressives than there are evangelicals, but not a whole lot more. Yet i don't think Obama will attract that many evangelicals.

[readmoreoften]

37. I think it's cynical.

Which should completely call into question the entire tone of his campaign--and tone was all it had going for it, in my opinion.

[Jamastiene]

18. I wish you could repost this old post of yours.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2594149&mesg_id=2594149

Most of the photos are missing now though. That would be the re-post to recommend.

If the Democratic Party was truly a progressive party and not really homophobic, Dennis Kucinich would have been our presidential nominee. He supports us. Why wasn't he? Because our party has been usurped by right wing ideologues. We are fucked unless we come up with something good enough that we can take all our allies and split.

[billyoc]

22. You shouldn't. The Electoral College mathematically forces there to be only two parties.

That doesn't mean you should be trapped into joining one of them. I'm not. :hi:

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

27. You shouldn't.

Sounds like you have a good game plan.

As for progressive sitting out affecting an election, it would only backfire on us. It seems that conservatives can mobilize to move in lock-step so that a minority can more or less hijack an entire party's agenda. Progressive, on the other hand... well, in my experience, it's a lot like herding cats. We support a broad array of issues (lack of focus), and we seem to be anti-authoritarian by nature (lack of structure). As things stand now, we could never raise a big enough stink for people to even notice besides a footnote in your local "alternative" newspaper.

[noamnety]

29. Hmmm. Maybe because

they only symbolically spit in your face?

(well, that and vote against human/civil rights much of the time ... but you know, that's only so they can get reelected, so you shouldn't worry yourself over that.)

[kenny blankenship]

30. I don't have an answer for that one, not since yesterday

The only thing I can say in favor of the "stay" position is that so many assholes want you to leave and disappear.
If you go quietly they get what they want for free.
I'm inclined to get as much payback as I can before they carry me out.

[readmoreoften]

36. But they just want us to shut up, not leave. They want the vote.

They don't want an organized LGBT resistance for all the crap the right-wing of the party puts us through.

[NMMNG]

32. Excellent question

K&R

[noiretextatique]

40. the democratic party lost me as member several years ago

i still vote for democrats unless there is a viable green in the race, but symbolically at least, i split when clinton started triangulating.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. thats my problem w,this party, its not just my 1500 rights...

its other issues too.. yes, they are better than the republicans.. but my themselves they are so disappointing

the problem is our lack of real choice

[LostinVA]

43. I'm not a member of this Party, and may never vote for a Dem candidate again

I wanted to vote Third Party this year -- either the SP candidate or Cynthia McKinney/Green Party. Palin pissed me and Haruka off so much we both changed our minds and vored for Obama. No fool like a queer fool, eh? YES SIR, ONE MORE! Ugh. Local level Dems maybe, but that's it. FUCK THEM on a Federal level until they do something for ME for a change. Or, at least giving me a nice "HA HA, moran! We got your money and vote -- screw you!"

[Politicub]

45. I'm going to remain a dem, but raise hell

If we didn't have a two party system, I would consider voting 3rd party. But for now, the reality is the country is better off under a dem administration rather than a republican one - DOMA and DADT notwithstanding.

[TechBear_Seattle]

46. "Who else are you going to vote for?"

I would sooner give up the elective franchise altogether -- at least that way, I am not having to decide between someone who wants to beat me to death and someone who is content to leave me out in the freezing winter and die out of sight.

[DarkTirade]

49. First off, this is where we'll find the most allies. Second, to work for change from within.

That, and let's face it, Dems are better for economy and whatnot too. And right now that's a big issue facing everyone including us.