Here is where I do agree with the Christian Right Wing on Gay Marriage

[La Lioness Priyanka]

The bigots of all homophobic denominations within christianity often reiterate that once we allow gay marriage we legitimize homosexuality. I completely and utterly agree with this sentiment. This is why the fight for marriage is crucial for us.

Even if you plan on being single, polyamorous or just slutty (all of which are legitimate choices for us) I urge you to join the fight for marriage. Even if it doesn't personally benefit you, we owe it to the next generation of gays and lesbians to come out and know that they are equals.

This is not a selfish focus. Our next generation has a right to know equality, to not have to suffer through internalized homophobia, to not have to deal with separate and unequal. I think a lot of us have suffered through self destructive behavior, much of which I think is rooted in internalized homophobia and growing up knowing that you are less than. I don't want the next generation to suffer through any of this.

The generation before me fought to give me safety. They may not have been 100% successful, but I am not afraid of cops coming in and disrupting our bars. I owe it to the next generation to give them equality. I may not be 100% successful, but to tell me my fight is selfish is ludicrous. It's not.
It's our obligation to the future.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. two rec and no replies...

harumph

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. thanks for this

Now I understand why the term "marriage" is so important. Frankly (and please forgive me) I thought that giving gays full legal equality and calling the legal marriage contract something else would be a decent compromise--providing that ALL rights were given. But now I see why the term "marriage" is considered so important.

BTW, I would also fight to ban ministers from being able to legally marry someone. Ministers (and the church) should only be involved with spiritual matters. Have the ministers perform spiritual unions, but not legal ones. I'm saying this as an ordained minister, btw. I have only legally married one couple, but have spiritually joined others.

[Lost-in-FL]

3. K&R, nt

[BOSSHOG]

4. I must disagree My Dear

This old fart white straight guy thinks "homosexuality is legitimate" in the land of the free regardless of what hateful political position a bunch of hateful zealots puts forth. Gays should have every right to marry and the ignorant evangelists amongst us can deal with it or leave to form their much sought after theocracy. Christians do not give a fuck about the sanctity of marriage and the constitution is not a weapon.

To modify my sig line:

MEN AND WOMEN IN UNIFORMED SERVICE OF THE UNITED STATES DO NOT PUT THEIR ASSES ON THE LINE TO PROTECT AND DEFEND THE BIBLE.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. by disagreeing you are agreeing though! we deserve equality and marriage is a way of symbolizing

this equality

[BOSSHOG]

12. However

I could not possibly care less about what a bunch of people who hate in the name of Jesus Christ think. Homosexuality is legitimate without the wickets that haters say must be met. Their criteria is irrelevant. The constitution trumps their religious books 100% of the time. You don't need their say so or OK to legitimize your life in the LAND OF THE FREE. God Bless You and Yours.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

29. yes, homosexuality is just as legitimate as heterosexualy, even if they don't see it

[TheWraith]

18. Actually, I think BOSSHOG makes an important distinction.

Gay marriage isn't legitimizing being gay, it's legitimizing the principle of equal protection under the law. Or put another way, if the law says something is wrong that isn't, that doesn't make the thing wrong, it makes the law unjust.

[yardwork]

30. BOSSHOG, I haven't told you that I love you yet today. I love you!

:loveya:

[GodlessBiker]

5. Saying the LGBT fight is selfish is like saying Rosa Parks was selfish when she refused...

to change her seat. It's just ridiculous.

Thank you for your post.

[Hydra]

7. This is where the battle line has been drawn

And thus, this is where the fight must occur.

The evangelicals were smart to fight using this wording- I prefer the term "Human Rights" to "Marriage rights", but besides the advantage that slant gives them the essence is there: If they lose this, then there will be no reason to deny the LBGT community any other rights.

[mitchtv]

8. Lawrence V Texas did that for me

I REMEMBER SOME NASTY pro gay demos in the 60's, Getting thrown off the Dais by the socalled anti war radicals(Brown Berets) now we have True Believers. In "I shall be released" , Dylan says 'I remember the face of every man who put me here'

[Truth Teller]

9. Great point!

K & R

[enigmatic]

10. yep

We're all fighting for the next generation, as well as for everyone now.

Fighting for your rights is never ludicrous; it's a part of who everyone should be.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. thank you enigmatic and thank you for being such a champion for equal rights

[enigmatic]

14. We're all in this together

:hug:

[NMMNG]

13. I disagree with one sentiment

The bigots of all homophobic denominations within christianity often reiterate that once we allow gay marriage we legitimize homosexuality.

What they mean by that is that "it's considered equal in the eyes of the law and we have to accept it/condone it/support it". That's why they fight so hard against any form of rights and protections for us--they loathe the idea of losing their self-declared "right" to discriminate against us.

But what they don't get is that equal rights under the law in no way forces anybody to accept/condone/support anybody else. Christianity is legal and completely protected under the law but I in no way accept many of its tenets, and in fact wholly detest certain forms of it. I'm completely free to do so under the law and I can even speak out against Christianity and Christians if I choose. I can't, however, legally discriminate against people merely because they're Christian.

The problem is that the bigots think they should have the right not only to say "we hate homos" but to legally discriminate against us too. They falsely claim that by giving us the same legal protections they have they'll lose their right to say "we hate homos", or rather "express their deeply held religious beliefs". Sadly because they couch everything in terms of their religion people keep kowtowing to them.


We're not trying to "legitimize homosexuality" because there's nothing illegitimate about it. We just want equal rights and protections under the law. If the bigots want to keep preaching their garbage in church or wherever they're free to do so just as I'm free to say what I think about them. So long as we have the same legal protections as they do the game is won.




Other than that, I agree with you fully.

[Deep13]

21. "But what they don't get ...

...is that equal rights under the law in no way forces anybody to accept/condone/support anybody else."

The problem with religious thought is that it assumes it is bigger than any personal or social or even national interest. By accepting the idea that their social standards come from god, it gives them a logical rationale to impose their views on the rest of us. Liberal religious thought is a step back from that conclusion by insisting all beliefs are valid. This obviously is not possible. Either YHWH is the one true god or else he isn't. The exclusivity of Christianity, for example, cannot be true if the polytheistic Hindu pantheon is true. So, being convinced that they somehow have the single right answer, that gives them license int heir own minds to force compliance from everyone else. When the Vatican flew Mother Theresa to Ireland in the 1990s to campain against a referendum on allowing women to divorce abuse husbands, it did not occur to them to allow the Catholic women continue to be battered while allowing Protestant and other Irish women to get a better life.

Those who hold to religious dogma will never be happy until ever knee is bent.

[bluedawg12]

22. Exactly! Gay rights should always be framed in terms of legal justice

because that is what the fight is about.

I don't expect the haters to think I am ever going to be legitamate and I don't care.

I do care that I/we have full rights under State and Federal law.

[whopis01]

23. Exactly - it is about punishment

It will never be enough for them to just "not condone" it. They will always seek to punish others for not believing the same as them.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

26. That is Precisely What We Are Dealing With...

The Christian religion has little or nothing to do with love and everything to do with the treat of punishment. I also agree that they are so dead set against giving us legal rights, including the right to marry and the protections that go along with that right because they want to punish us for being who we are. It is about time that the country quits giving this religion a free ride in the form of tax exempt status. They will always preach hate and seek to meddle in politics. Fine, then pay for the fucking privildge!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. K&R

[Deep13]

16. It would be a significant step, but insufficient by itself.

There would still be millions of people who regard it as something other than "normal." The priests would still be railing against it and people would draw a distinction between "real marriage" and others. My guess is that only nuclear families with children who were married in a religious ceremony will be "real" while the rest of us will be something less than that. After the legality of interracial marriage was finally recognized, it was still regarded as weird (I've heard it called "disgusting") for decades later.

I am in favor of gay marriage for the simple reason that many people want it and that there is no public policy reason to oppose it. I would also like to see Federal or at least more state legislation protecting gay people from workplace discrimination. Right now in Ohio an employer may openly refuse to hire gay people, discriminate in pay and fire them because they are gay. Some states prohibit this, but to the best of my knowledge Federal law does not.

I agree with Fundamentalists on something too. Unlike liberal religious believers, I agree with the conservatives that there is only one reality. Either they are right and homosexuality is an offense against god or else they are completely wrong and deserve no deference for their beliefs. The facts are on the side of the so-called "homosexual agenda" and not on the side of any of the religions that oppose it.

So, yeah. It's necessary, but there would still be a lot of deprogramming of prejudice afterwards.

[TheWraith]

19. Some people are going to rail about it for years anyway. That's just reality.

People forget how slow social progress usually is. Compared to the history of rights movements--blacks, women, workers, children, and on--gay rights is moving at breakneck speed. The old opinions are dying out faster, too. I think everyone will be surprised by where we are in ten years.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

17. I think we should apply their rules in their fairy tale to them.

force their women to carry their bloody sheets with them forever. Allow them to sell their underaged daughters into sexual slavery. (saves on them purity bowls, too!) and make them wimin folk hide themselves during menstruation. How dare them wimin bleed like that? Filthy filthy evil wimin.

Or, let's follow the catholic church. In 1968, Pope Paul issued his landmark ruling, called an encyclical, the Humanae Vitae. In it, he said that “every conjugal act to be open to the transmission of life.” Translated, he insisted that consensual sex can only be used for reproduction. He also insisted that any act that interfered with his massive Christian procreation plan, including all forms of contraception, abortion, even mutual masturbation, were mortal sins.

Yeah, sex among America's religious conservatives DOES involve the transmission of something. We call it an STD. Thanks to Bush, these have been on the rise in the states for 6 yrs.

[Deep13]

20. “every conjugal act to be open to the transmission of life.”

That's ultimately what the conservatives want. Making abortion unavailable and forcing gays back into the closet are just first steps.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. one more kick as people ask us why it has to be marriage

[Ioo]

25. great way to look at it. We have found common ground, now give me marriage.

[sundog]

27. "I owe it to the next generation to give them equality."

so true

that's what so much of this is about

it's NOT just about us - it's also about those who will follow after & the world we will leave behind for them to live in

thanks for this post

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. yes, just because these children are not our children, doesnt mean we shouldnt fight for them

its not fair that another generation has to grow up hating themselves

[yardwork]

31. Thank you. Good post.

[lightningandsnow]

32. Yes.

Tried to recommend, but I couldn't. Awesome post!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. it was a few days old. i kicked it because i am vain like that

:)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. kicking as well.

:kick: it was pertinent then and still is pertinent now

[xchrom]

35. kick

[Toasterlad]

36. Agreed. I Have No Plans to Ever Marry...But Equality Is Important to EVERYONE.

Whether I choose to exercise a right or not has no bearing on whether or not I should be entitled to it.

[Divine Discontent]

37. agreed - fight for the rights even if you don't wanna use them! eom

[Withywindle]

38. Dang! I can't rec this thread!

I can kick it though.

It just boggles me that so many people can't see this. If we honor and respect the human rights struggles of the past - all of them - then we are called upon to keep them moving in the present and future. It's not "selfish." It's selfish for people to sit on their asses and snipe at the people who are still struggling.

And it's selfish for politicians to play it safe for themselves and let the real fighters twist in the wind. I'm horrified by how poisonously silent Obama has been about this. It upsets me more than anything else he's done (or hasn't done) so far. I can't figure out why he can't see this is important, I really can't.