I think that we've made some good points.

[yardwork]

As I reflect on this past week I see some good results:

1. A number of DUers have posted that they understand more about the need for gay rights in recent days. Exchanges here have informed them, or they've done some research on their own, and now they know more facts than they did before.

2. More DUers know a little bit more about Stonewall and its history in the struggle for gay rights.

3. A whole lot of DUers - including many who haven't posted much - are aware that gay people are willing to be loud and obnoxious in speaking up for ourselves. While many people think that this is counter-productive of us, my personal feeling is that it's better to be disliked for being too loud than to be disrespected for being easily intimidated. Prop 8 and the Rev Warren flap may be remembered as moments in the struggle for GLBTQ rights when gay people finally refused to shut the fuck up - even when begged to do so by some of our straight allies. There comes a time in every revolution when people will no longer be denied, and those moments tend to be noisy.

If anyone reading this thread is interested in doing some more reading, there's a book I'd like to recommend. It's called Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg (alyson books, 1993, new edition 2003. In addition to being a very interesting account of the experience of gay and transgendered people in the 1950s-1980s, it's also about labor rights and the struggles of blue-collar workers in the northeastern U.S. during a time of continuing crisis.

I recommend it especially to folks who think that all this fuss about gay rights is nothing but a hobby for wealthy queers of leisure. If anyone else would like to add more books or movies or resources to this thread, it might turn out to be really useful to many folks - gay and straight and everything else - who want to learn more.

Thanks.

[bicentennial_baby]

1. I second your book recommendation

Excellent book. :thumbsup:

[Skittles]

2. you know it, yardwork

some DUers have given me hope, and thanks for your reading suggestion - I am always looking for a good book :)

[bluedawg12]

3. I think this was a productive week -even through some real ugliness

When confronted with bullies standing up for oneself is much better than cowering and remaining a target.

Thank you for the book rec's!

[jonnyblitz]

4. I have met Leslie Feinberg and his wife/partner Minnie.

they are affilliated with the NYC International Action Center and ANSWER (the antiwar group everybody loves to trash.) I went to a few weekend seminers and various other meetings off and on of the GLBT contingient of these groups at the beginning of the war in 2003 and 2004 and Leslie spoke a few times. Minnie, his wife, is very sweet. just thought I would share.

[yardwork]

6. Thank you for sharing that. I would like to meet them.

I hear that Leslie is not well.

[jonnyblitz]

9. i lost touch with that whole crowd. it seems like the anti-war

folks just faded away. I am sure they are still there in NYC but I don't hear of the HUGE rallies and seminars like before.

[yardwork]

12. That reminds me to do more.

[NMDemDist2]

5. I am one who has avoided the flame wars it's true.

but my sigline changed the day after the Warren announcement and I did just post this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4704347&mesg_id=4704980

but I didn't need educated, I watch Ann and Andy every week on FSTV and I get all their news from GayUSA

even my hubby has gotten a lot more sympathetic since he has to watch them too, with me, every Saturday night

:evilgrin:

I am appalled at some of the sick shit I am reading here and amazed Skinner hasn't dropped the axe on a few to tighten up the joint.

I have a feeling he's not around, or is weighing what to do with the other Admins.

They move with glacial slowness sometimes I've noticed.

I just feel really sorry for the mods, it's got to be a horrible time in the mod forum right now. In fact, I thank the mod forum and some gay mods back when I moderated for educating me even further about the emotional side of it.

Terrya being one of them, ncrainbowgrrl another

[yardwork]

7. Thank you!

[jonnyblitz]

8. many here imply we are exaggerating the extent of this backlash

and we don't really see what we see so i always appreciate posts like yours. thanks! :hi:

[NMDemDist2]

11. shit, the thread I linked got disappeared too. wow

although I did alert on the guy I responded to, it wasn't the OP

the mods are starting to pull the trigger quick.

:hi:

[jonnyblitz]

15. what happens is that all the nasty crap on DU gets disappeared

and then when we tell people about it they say prove it with links and we can't because it is GONE. a bunch of us had this discussion the other day in here, yesterday i think. the people that are being jackasses are the ones claiming it isn't happening. i am glad there are unbiased(in their eyes) witnesses like you. our antagonists always frame it as though it is just us gays on one side and they neglect to acknowledge we have many straight allies here.

one good thing out of all this mess is i have met super nice people I never interacted with before, mostly straight! :hi:

[NMDemDist2]

16. well, I don't blame them for making it go poof, it's wrong and embarassing

just send em my way, or we'll call Skittle and she can kick some ass for us

:evilgrin:

[Two Americas]

22. absolutely

It is horrific. That is part of disappearing people - marginalizing them and isolating them - by denying that they saw what they saw.

[yardwork]

10. By the way, your link connects to a "missing topic."

[NMDemDist2]

13. yeah I just noticed that. some fool told me I was kneejerking over a

mountain vs a molehill

I had alerted on him, but it wasn't the OP I alerted, now the whole thread is gone.

geez.

[ropi]

14. I agree 110%, Yardwork

Stone Butch Blues is a must read! :-)

[bluedawg12]

17. So what happens now? Does the Warren thing die down

and we post mostly on GLBT?

Do we wait for March and the California Supreme Court decision?

It seems like despite it being a good week it took it's toll on a lot of good people, some left a few are suspended, it's an odd sense here tonight, compared to last night and the week-end.

I know it's the holiday season. What's the strategy?

I am still for fighting for our cause.

[NMDemDist2]

18. well we've got a month to keep bombarding change.gov

I'll send another missive off tomorrow

[readmoreoften]

19. I third your book recommendation.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. It has been a VERY interesting few days.

Several people exposed themselves (and not in the good way) as to what they really are. I guess the one thing which astonished me was how so many couldn't see the real issue or that homophobia goes beyond calling someone a "faggot" or beating them senseless.

A good book, though a tad outdated, is "Making History" and "Looking at Gay and Lesbian Life." A really good movie is "But...I'm a Cheerleader." Gays in the Holocaust: "Paragraph 175" and "Bent."

And, for those too stupid to realize this was not a "marriage" issue, they really need to watch "The Laramie Project" and "Boys Don't Cry," and "Soldier's Girl." THAT is why we are so pissed, or at least why I am.

[Two Americas]

21. agreed

I have been completely radicalized over the last few days.

The hatred and bigotry being expressed here - hourly - with all of the right wing talking rhetoric is despicable, but very educational for me.

There is an effort going on to marginalize and isolate GLBTQ people, to cut them off from the herd and throw them to the wolves. That has to be resisted and fought, by all of us, unambiguously and forthrightly.

This is not about "the gays" and "their agenda" it is about the bigots and haters and their agenda. People resisting persecution and abuse are not the ones making trouble, the persecutors and abusers are. But many here at DU are trying to promote these ideas, reinforce the separation and alienation, maneuver GLBTQ folks into a corner, paint the fight for justice and equality as a "special interest" that "they want" and that somehow is interfering with the glorious progressive program - desperately, aggressively, cruelly. How is that different from the religious right? Change "progressive agenda" to "God's plan" and we have identical arguments. I won't stand for it. I won't stay quiet. It is immoral as well as politically reactionary.

I can't stand to see human beings separated and isolated, and then ridiculed and mocked and tormented. It is wrong.

I apologize for being so dense and so slow to understand this.

[yardwork]

23. Thank you very much for your post. That is what this is all about.

You really get it. Thank you for posting it.