Have to hand it to Obama - he said he wanted to start a dialogue

[BR_Parkway]

and that has certainly occurred. Am I still pissed? Absolutely.

But I'm thinking to the conversations I've had with various friends and acquaintances these past few days, people who have revealed that even though they've been supportive and 100% in my corner, still didn't understand all the issues involved or how ingrained certain homophobic things were in our culture that allow them under the guise of religion.

Now, I can't say that I've converted anyone who wasn't already on the side of equal rights, but I can say that there's at least a dozen in my circle who are finally understanding that just because their religion says something, doesn't excuse it from being bigotry - the KKK has been a perfect example as has mixed marriages.

I'm not ready to cheer the Rev on the platform, but I am willing to admit that there's been enough talk about this already to have opened some eyes in ways that are beneficial. We still have a long way to go - and my hat will be off to the first reporter who asks the good Reverend why they always excuse divorce in spite of Christ's direct condemnation of it but are always willing to decry homosexuality.

I'll say this - it's a start. And potentially a little further down the road to equality than we were last week.


(and for those who want to flame, do a search at my other postings on Warren this week)

[nashville_brook]

1. i'd really like to see the president-elect join in this dialogue.

seems terribly irresponsible not to.

[NWHarkness]

2. You're making sense to me

Even some of the voices speaking strongly in defense of the Warren decision will most likely have a greater awareness on the issues than they did beforehand.

[babylonsister]

3. Nice post. I do hope something positive comes from this,

and asked and answered. I would have preferred a more serious response, and he may have given one somewhere.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8024835

snip//

Q: Which do you think is a greater threat to the American family - divorce or gay marriage? A: {laughs} That's a no brainer. Divorce. There's no doubt about it.

Q: So why do we hear so much more - especially from religious conservatives - about gay marriage than about divorce?

A: Oh we always love to talk about other sins more than ours. Why do we hear more about drug use than about being overweight? {Note: Warren is quite overweight.}

Q: Just to clarify, do you support civil unions or domestic partnerships?

A: I don't know if I'd use the term there but I support full equal rights for everybody in America. I don't believe we should have unequal rights depending on particular lifestyles so I fully support equal rights.

Q: What about partnership benefits in terms of insurance or hospital visitation?

A: You know, not a problem with me.

[Truth Teller]

10. Wow, he's okay with me after all

:sarcasm:

[babylonsister]

11. The OP asked, I answered. Got a problem with that?

"my hat will be off to the first reporter who asks the good Reverend why they always excuse divorce in spite of Christ's direct condemnation of it but are always willing to decry homosexuality."

[Truth Teller]

12. Nope

Got a problem with me making a sarcastic comment about Warren being okay with me now? :eyes:

[bluedawg12]

16. Warren supported Hate8 which took away civil rights.

That action cannot be justified in the name of preserving a legal term "marriage," that is truly immoral and abhorrent, if that is his position.

To be clear: if he supports all legal and equal rights for gays, and if his sole objection is the use of the term "marriage" and that's why he supported taking away full and eqaul rights in California, that is an abomination.

The solution would have been to take a principled stand by saying: " I support full and equal State issued same sex marriage rights. Since the State of California has issued such "secular" marriage rights, I will not fight against those rights.

But, as a Pastor, I reserve the right to call marriage in my Church, which is rightfully and accordng to my faith restricted to one man and one woman, I will call that a "Christian Marriage," as opposed to the secular State legal meaning of the word marriage, which I will not disturb or resist."

He cannot have it both ways. He fought to take away legal marriage rights in the name or a word. Nope, not buying.

[Mike 03]

4. I'm praying he won't disappoint you. He has the hardest road ahead of him

I can think of for any president.

I just hope to god he won't let down this community.

[BeyondGeography]

5. Four more weeks of white hot rage isn't going to happen

There will be dialogue, and some of it will actually be constructive, as you point out. I expect that trend to continue. If anyone has been put on the defensive, it's Warren, not Obama. Barack has been criticized for his judgment; Warren for his beliefs. Big difference.

[HillWilliam]

6. Well, neighbor, none of us would have been so pissed

if it weren't for the "do as I say, but don't do as I do" attitudes coming from the far-right for so long. I was raised in a house that despised hypocrites and I still do. I think the "good reverend" has a lot of 'splainin' to do about how he can stand to make a lovely, tax-exempt living by picking the pockets of willing fools who are all-too happy to "feel the love" of superiority about themselves whilst smugly hating some other group. Funny, as much as I've studied the Bible (and it's been a lot), Jesus never said anything about hating anyone.

He sure did preach an awful lot of object-lessons about hypocrites, though.

From where I sit, all I can see is Warren's words and actions and they loudly scream "hypocrite". F'rinstance, the hasty scrubbing of his site, the slumming in WeHo, all right after he joined in filing paperwork to make sure that the same-sex marriages that have already been performed in California will be rendered null and void.

If that isn't a talking snake, I've never heard tell of one.

From me, he'll have no peace, no mercy, no quarter. I didn't start this fight. But I'll damnsure stay to finish it.

[BR_Parkway]

15. Well, it looks as if part of the dialogue is about the hypocrisy - and

I don't think that's a bad thing. Especially when those who may have been lukewarm allies are given reason to question all of his statements and find them lacking.

Again, it's not to say that I'm not pissed at Obama for creating this mess or the insult of it in the first place. I'm not even willing to give him credit that this was the outcome he intended. But I am willing to see that there may be some unintended benefit to the GLBT community from this - which is further down the road from last week when all I saw was the negative side of it.

[HillWilliam]

17. I'm one who writes my Congresscritters regularly and

holds their feeties to the fire. There's a lot more to be gained from letting them know how we feel than clamming up and saying, "I don't feel like playing any more." There's an art to tantrums, knowing when and how to have them. I also learned the art of the pointed-but-polite memo long ago. Ranting and letting it all out on a political forum is one thing; I can get the yelling out of my system here (and I have and I do). Then when the storm is over, I can compose in peace with a firmness of purpose. I suppose one could call it channeling anger into resolve.

I spring from old NC Revolutionary and Colonial families. I often think, "how would my ancestors have handled the British?" There's a way to proceed, I think. History can be a teacher and having delved deeply into my genealogy, I've read a shitpot of it. I often call this struggle for LGBT equality "How to be an Insurrectionist without being Shot for an Insurrectionist 101" :) Sometimes, it's a lot like that. The Quaker settlers (from whom I'm also sprung) took disobedience-without-being-reallllllly-disobedient to a fine art. Like all of those, we have to keep pressing our point, never giving up, until we have our full-and-equal citizenship.

We are as Spirit created us. We are born; we don't choose. These are simple facts. Just because some idiots choose to use the maunderings of long-dead sun-baked half-crazies that happened to get written down in a book as weapons of hatred to steal dignity and humanity from us doesn't mean we have to accept it. That also means that reasonable, educated people shouldn't blindly accept it or give it tacit approval, either. Know'm'sayin'?

I cannot give PEBO a free pass on this one. I'm not turning my back, either, for two reasons. First, I wouldn't turn my back on a potential ally -- we may need one another. Second, I wouldn't turn my back on someone who I feel has betrayed a trust -- he may stick a knife in it. My jury is still pondering which it is at this point.

I'm watching. Closely.

[bluedawg12]

18. I think in Japanese Disaster and opportunity are the same words.

We can take this Warren thing and Hate8 and any other thing they throw at us in the future and turn it into a positive.

Yes we can.

[HillWilliam]

19. Ah, there y'are

that was the wisdom I PM'd for. It was late and I was on DU-overload.

Bon mot!

[bluedawg12]

20. Great minds!

:hi:

[Hydra]

7. Any good that comes from this

Came from the good that was us, and we had an uphill battle to do it.

Obama was not clever, not understanding, and not honest in his dealings with us. We're taking up the battle that he should have fought for us.

The media and the others cheered Obama for ignoring the "minority" of the country that want HUMAN RIGHTS for all of us. Obama did what was politically to his benefit(Consolidating power by support of a church), but we were the ones who shined when we said "This is not the change we need."

Obama may come to regret his rhetoric- we wanted change. BADLY. We will NOT take "no" for an answer.

[tandot]

8. There is an interview about Warren and his thoughts about divorce

http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2008/12/Rick-Warren-Transcript.aspx?p=7


"Which do you think is a greater threat to the American family – divorce or gay marriage?

That’s a no brainer. Divorce. There’s no doubt about it. "

<snip>

"So why do we hear so much more – especially from religious conservatives – about gay marriage than about divorce?

Oh we always love to talk about other sins more than ours. Why do we hear more about drug use than about being overweight? Why do we hear more about anything else than about wasting time or gossip? We want to point that my sins are perfectly acceptable. Your sins are hideous and evil."

more at link ...

--------

Not that it makes it better. He is still a bad choice. Just to say that there could be ANY thread to "traditional" marriage if gays are allowed to marry is insane.



on edit: I just saw that babylonsister already posted that further up. My apologies :hi:

[GOPisEvil]

9. I will admit I was forced to attach more firmament to my own opinion.

I'm also much more willing to engage people on the issue now than I was before.

In the same way that George Bush woke me from my political slumber, this Warren thing has forced me to take more of a stand.

[BR_Parkway]

13. Yeah, I would agree with that - and also some in my circle - like I said

they were supportive, but they didn't totally understand until now.

That is not to say that I'm giving Warren a pass on any of his "opinions" - but it is nice to see him having to defend those opinions in a court of public opinion that is showing more and more that they are not going to accept his brand of intolerance, especially when the hypocrisy is so glaring on other issues.

[jgraz]

14. Next he'll nuke Iran to start a dialogue on counter-proliferation.

:eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

21. With all of the hawks in his cabinet and WH staff, I wouldn't put it past him

Pat Robertson will love him even more if he nukes Tehran.

[jgraz]

22. Maybe first he can send Unca Pat there on a fact-finding mission