Fierstein calls Obama a coward

[canis_lupus]

From PageOneQ:

Openly gay stage and screen actor Harvey Fierstein had pointed words on his Facebook page for the President-elect over his choice of Saddleback Church pastor Rick Warren to deliver the invocation on Inauguration Day:

"A couple of boys were calling my best friend a faggot one unhappy day at summer camp. Courses of action seemed slim to my adolescent mind. I could stand up for Jack branding myself a fag as well and insuring myself a miserable summer, or I could join in with the name callers, lose my closest friend, but assure my standing with the majority. I sacrificed my friend on the altar of popularity. I don't think I need to tell you that political expediency was a terrific short-term solution but a long-term nightmare. My summer concluded uneventfully but none of those boys became my friend or did me any favors. And forty years later I still feel the loss of Jack along with a piece of my self respect that I can never win back. Mine was an act of cowardice and betrayal.

"It seems Obama is now maneuvering through the summer camp of his political adolescence and is about to make the same bad choice as I. He can call the placing of a hate monger like Rick Warren on the world dais political healing or inclusiveness or any other nicety he'd like, but I call it pandering to the lowest instinct of the worst kind of politics.

"President Elect Obama, your victory was made possible in no small part to the votes and wallets of the gay and lesbian community along with our supporters. Turning your back on us does not make you more mainstream American. It just makes you a coward."

http://pageoneq.com/news/2008/Fierstein_calls_Obama_1223.html

[KitchenWitch]

1. Careful there, we only want warm fuzzy GLBT feelings for Rick Warren.

[Jamastiene]

2. It does make a difference when someone speaks out

compared to siding with the attackers or just doing nothing.

[gcomeau]

3. Fun.

Yeah! Obama should have spoken up! He should have stood right up and told everyone he disagreed with Warren's stance on gay rights! Instead, that pathetic coward told everyone he disagreed with.. Warren's... stance... on gay rights...

Wait, something isn't quite right here. Give me a second, I'm sure I'll nail it down if I have some time to think it over.

...


Got it! Fierstein is being an idiot. Factor that bit of information into the equation and everything makes sense again.

[yardwork]

8. Maybe Obama should have chosen somebody else to honor other than Rick Warren.

But if it makes you feel good to call people who have fewer rights than you "idiots" go ahead.

[gcomeau]

10. You know...

...if you can show me where I called people who have fewer rights than me idiots, I'll sincerely apologize. To the best of my knowledge however I said ONE PERSON was BEING an idiot. and I explained in what I think is a fairly clear manner exactly how that was so.

If you can't show me where I said what you just accused me of saying how about you consider apologizing? How does that sound?

I think this makes about half a dozen times this has been attempted on me in the last week. It's tiring.

[yardwork]

12. If it's been happening to you a lot, maybe you should cool down your rhetoric.

You called Harvey Fierstein an idiot just now, and he has fewer rights than you. Your posts on this and another thread are highly inflammatory. You're having a great time screaming at people - like me - who have fewer rights than you. Do you feel big?

[gcomeau]

16. Hold on a minute.

Are you actually trying to to argue that it's somehow morally or ethically wrong for me to point it out if someone is an idiot if they also happen to be gay and I'm not? Only gay people are allowed to call gay idiots, idiots? I have to restrict my criticisms to straight idiots? I don't suppose you'd care to present some justification for this apparent ethical philosophy of yours? Am I also not allowed to call idiots who are members of discriminated against ethnic minorities idiots because I'm white? How far does this principle extend exactly?

That aside, to repeat, no I did not call Fierstein an idiot. I said he was BEING an idiot. In this particular circumstance. I accompanied that with a perfectly clear explanation of my assessment of how he was being an idiot.

[yardwork]

17. Nice straw man you're kicking around there.

But yes, while we're on the subject, even though I hadn't gotten around to it yet - I do think that it is both morally and ethically wrong to pick on people who have fewer rights than you. Does this mean that you aren't allowed to point out idiocy? No, I never said that. I said it was wrong to pick on people who have fewer rights. You are picking on people with these posts. Not just me, but anyone who reads this thread and agrees with me. It's a form of intimidation.

And yes, I'd be careful about picking on people of color if I were you. You're white, you're straight. You have a lot of privileges. Be gracious.

[gcomeau]

19. ...

But yes, while we're on the subject, even though I hadn't gotten around to it yet - I do think that it is both morally and ethically wrong to pick on people who have fewer rights than you. Does this mean that you aren't allowed to point out idiocy? No, I never said that.

Actually, you said EXACTLY that. Because that is in fact the only thing I did, and you just told me... AGAIN... that by doing so I was "picking on" people with less rights than me. It's one or the other. Either it was fair game criticism, in which case it should be addressed on the merits of the argument presented in it's support and not by accusing me of bullying just for presenting the argument at all... or it wasn't.

So which is it?

[ooglymoogly]

21. No one should ever curb your right to call someone an idiot

and visa versa...You are a flaming idiot.

[gcomeau]

23. A couple nitpicks.

1. I said someone was being an idiot, which is significantly different than calling them an idiot. (Just for the sake of clarity you understand.)

2. When I did the above, I supported my conclusion with argument.

That is not to say that you are required to do the same of course, on either point. Restricting yourself solely to name calling is of course a right we all enjoy if that's the level you're comfortable operating on.

[NWHarkness]

18. So by my math

That makes at least a half a dozen times you've made a point out of throwing flames around on the issue.

[yardwork]

20. And blaming the people who complain.

[gcomeau]

24. That would be one...

...completely unsubstantiated guess one could make about what happened, yes. Well done.

[NWHarkness]

25. Well, it could not have been anything you said!

The darn gays are just so emotional!

[laconicsax]

15. Obama's 'disagreement' with Warren's stance is unbelievably vague and disingenuous

Obama: "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman."
Warren: "Marriage is between a man and a woman, and gays are dangerous, incestuous pedophiles."
Obama: "I disagree with Rev. Warren's views on gay rights."

[FiveGoodMen]

29. I don't agree with this mister ... Hitler, is it? ... but I thought we should all hear him speak

(Fuck Godwin)

[Toasterlad]

30. Wow. There's a Box of Hammers and Then There's You.

Either you're an incredible moron, or you think we are.

Obama is a coward for inviting someone with whom he claims to disagree, someone who has said reprehensible things about many people. Obama is a coward for pandering to the worst, most despicable people this country's got to offer, at the very real expense of men and women who worked hard for him and want nothing more than to live their lives in the same dignity of which you are unworthy.

[racaulk]

4. But Melissa says he's A-OK, and that's fine with me!

:sarcasm:

[Skittles]

5. Mr. Fierstein calls it like it is

it IS indeed "pandering to the lowest instinct of the worst kind of politics"

[Orsino]

37. It's not that simple.

It smells of cowardice, sure, and it hurts just the same, but Obama really does seem to be trying to build that Big-Ass Tent. It takes a kind of courage to juggle conflicting loyalties, and to be willing to play the game at all, even if pandering is one of the tools he'll have to use.

Fierstein is right to remind Obama of the terrible cost of the Warren deal, but calling complex, calculating political deals mere cowardice is oversimplifying matters greatly. If wooing the right for a while can gain him the support needed to save jobs, or the economy as a whole, will we eventually be okay with this particular pact with Satan? Will we at least register our pain with the new president, so that someone else has to pay the next time a sacrifice is demanded? Will Warren's temporary whitewashing of his anti-GLBT record turn into a long-term moderation of his stance?

I dunno. I'm willing to complain all day long about the pandering to Warren's base, but Obama has proven several times that he's smarter than I am. However we criticize #44, let's be willing to delve beyond labels such as "coward," even as we keep careful track of the political capital Obama is spending and earning.

I won't tell anyone how to feel about Warren and Obama, but I hope we can all realize that we won't always feel as we do now--depending on the outcome.

[Zuiderelle]

6. "Obama is now maneuvering through the summer camp of his political adolescence"

My God, that's a good analogy from Fierstein!

:applause:

[The Doctor.]

7. God I love that man.

I hope he's wrong, but he's a very wise fellow... just like most people with the same exact birthday. :party:

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. How long until this thread is locked?

After all, it links to something that calls the President Elect a coward because of his relationship with Rick Warren. Or will this post and any responses be summarily deleted without comment and, if so, how quickly?

[MNBrewer]

14. It will no doubt be locked

Obama shows no leadership on the issue of gay rights. He is purely a follower, and goes where the political wind blows.

[Neshanic]

11. Now THAT'S a response. I love that guy!

[Bluebear]

13. IBTL

[ooglymoogly]

22. Harvey you're the greatest ....kr nt

[ronnykmarshall]

26. Why does he want to spoil this for the rest of us???

I will NEVER forgive the asshole that wrote that.

[Bluebear]

27. Me. Neither.

[ronnykmarshall]

28. and they can ban me for pointing that shit out.

[Toasterlad]

31. Oh, I Need To Hear This One. Please PM Me.

[jonnyblitz]

32. that dude has always been a fuckin JACKASS. nt

[LostinVA]

34. What are you talking about?

[Bluebear]

35. --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=7990779

[glitch]

38. I clicked on that link and got "you are ignoring the author of this thread" nt

[Cherchez la Femme]

40. Only took 110 posts to lock that thread

:eyes: and hysterical :rofl: simultaneously

Sad.

[joeybee12]

33. Anyone got audio of that...Harvey's voice, liek sandpaper, saying this?

It's a very distinctive voice. Good for him.

[tavalon]

36. Good. Smack him hard.

Warren is a dead man walking, at this point, though. And by that, I mean that he will bow out sometime next week. Obama won't officially ask him to and that's somewhat cowardly but Warren will back out.

[Marrah_G]

39. Most politicians are political cowards. Including many of our favorites

Almost no politician ever says what they truly think in the way they truly want to say it. There is always another election coming up.

I think a good chunk of Democrats are FOR 100% equality including marriage. But they are to afraid to speak out. To afraid to take a risk.

At least I hope that is it.

The alternative is that they are bigots who really are against equality for all.

[pnorman]

41. Hey, lighten up fellers! Christmas will soon be on us!

Have a BALL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-Ui9hZDiFc

pnorman

[Mark Twain Girl]

42. Good. Cowardice is the kindest thing that I would call this pattern.

Playing all sides against, then sitting back and pretending to have clean hands. "Who, me?" Tell the fundies they'll get legitimacy and acceptance; tell GLBT that they'll get legitimacy and acceptance; act bemused when all hell breaks loose. That's what reaching across the aisle entails here. It was absolutely predictable what hurt this choice of Warren would cause and it was a course of action chosen deliberately. I don't understand why anyone would make a nutjob like Warren a legit presence on the national stage.

And yeah, GLBT money will always be good enough for the taking.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

43. You GO, Harvey!

I'm sure you are only saying what most of the LGBTQ community is thinking these days. I luv ya, Harvey!