it's not about everybody. -- it's about lgbtiq people.

[xchrom]

while i have volunteered and given money to civil rights struggles -- was deeply involved with the ERA --

the marriage equality issue ISN'T about every body's equality -- it's about equality for lgbtiq people.

you might want to erase our distinctions -- but i never will.

[Why Syzygy]

1. How very special for you.

You DU righters have convinced me my efforts to achieve equality for ALL are better spent with issues other than YOUR marriage issue. Thanks so much.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. huh? that makes no sense

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Blackmail for support?

Well let's hear all about your efforts over the years. I doubt the loss of your energies will be noticed. But feel free to list them. Tell us of your 'efforts'. Ready? Begin.

[bluedawg12]

14. Another "sunshine patriot" - thanks so much.

:sarcasm:

[racaulk]

20. Oh FFS!

If an anonymous post on an Internet message board will convince you to not continue to work for the cause of marriage equality, then trust me, your support wasn't that solid or dependable to begin with.

See ya.

[yardwork]

24. Me too post.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. the problem is when people start saying equality for all, they dont reall mean us

we are their smallest group, and therefore most dispensable in their struggle for "all"

this is why we need to make sure that our struggle remains alive and well defined as our rights. else in this big struggle for all we will continuously get lost

[xchrom]

4. EXACTLY.

it has become a way of making lgbtiq people invisible. again.

[Creideiki]

5. Ironically, it's usually the weakest subgroup, the Ts that suffer first

And some LGBs that are willing to sacrifices the Ts for their own benefit, or at the altar of "incrementalism".

Societies are judged based on how they treat their most vulnerable. Right now, the US isn't looking too hot (not just LGBT here--there are a lot of vulnerable groups that others seem willing to sacrifice). Meanwhile, I'll keep fighting for the rights of everyone, even groups I'm not a part of.

[TechBear_Seattle]

11. Very well stated

As usual. :fistbump:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. aww thank you!

:toast:

[Iggo]

30. I really mean you.

And I'm people.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

6. For me it is about everybody.

First they'll suppress your right to marry. Next will be forced treatments for the mentally ill or shoving the homeless further onto the fringes of society. From there it's a hop, skip and goosestep away from suppressing the rights of all non-white, male Protestants (and even then the mainstream churches might be in trouble).

[xchrom]

8. i'm not saying there isn't an all encompassing slippery slope --

but this is OUR struggle OUR fight.

yes -- all can benefit -- but this is ours.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

9. I'm down with that.

Mind if I help?

[unpossibles]

10. I both agree and disagree

I don't want to downplay or erase the very real point you make, and now that you mention it I suppose it could come across that way when I try to frame it as equal marriage rights for all. My point is not to diminish the GLBTQ community or the very real lack of equal rights, but to get straight and narrow people to consider that they are not that different from us, to try to get it to sink in that it is an equal rights issue, and not "just a gay issue" which they can then write off with religious, socially acceptable bigotry.

[xchrom]

12. people who are quite liberal in other areas of their lives

can be very bigoted -- often without knowing it -- when it comes to lgbtiq people.

it really is OUR struggle.

straight people haven't been first in trying to get these rights for us -- though all lgbtiq people are very very grateful for our straight allies and thie efforts.

but this is OUR struggle.

[unpossibles]

16. I agree. Much like how sexism is both not uncommon and often not noticed

less so with racism, but it's definitely there. And the only solution is to educate and try to point out to people when they are acting in a way that displays their bigotry. I generally try to give someone the benefit of the doubt - everyone has a chance to prove they aren't an asshole - because it is so culturally acceptable and encouraged to be homophobic that I think sometimes people don't realize it.

There's a guy in our scooter club who I got into a big argument with over marriage rights. He's not a bad guy at heart, but he is very misguided and in my opinion, gets too much info from rightwing radio. But what's weird is, while he repeats the stupid talking points, he really is friends with many GLBT people in the club, although I've wondered if he even realizes it, so I try to see him as a potential ally instead of just attacking him - although I definitely don't just ignore his occasional statement either. Now, unfortunately, for the one of him, there are two or three guys who are proud to be bigoted assholes, so I don't give them the benefit of the doubt at all.

But it's a difficult issue. My friend Laurie and I were discussing plastering his bike with equal rights stickers and pink triangles. We've both gotten pretty pissed at him more than once, and rightfully so. While I don't normally get very guerilla tactic anymore, I do think it's an amusing idea. I don't know. I do feel that experience and education go a long way though toward acceptance: as someone who grew up in a tiny town, it took me moving to a city to get to know people from all over the world and to realize that people are people. I never considered myself prejudiced, but being exposed to more people I probably never would have met in a small town, made me realize that I had my own preconceptions to get over.

[bluedawg12]

18. Learned my lesson on the eve of PropHate8

When debating with people whom I had considered otherwise benign and tolerant and reasonable open minded people.

They had never made a homophobic statement, there had been openly gay folks in that online community and no one attacked them.

But when they went a little deeper into their own attitudes and especially about their prized "marriage" het gold standard, then all of the right wing talking points came out.

Our society has been inundated with right wing talking points about gays for decades.

Until recently, prior to Hate8, gay rights issues were discussed by str8 pundits on the MSM, both pro and con.

These attitudes will take a long time and a lot of work to change.

The comforting thought for me is that, as I think about other civil rights justice movements, laws changed long before attitudes changed.

I am putting my bet on using the legal arguments for justice to win equal rights.

One more thing, putting any human rights up for a popularity contest is a terrible idea. Few people have taken the time to really learn the issues and fall prey to clever ads and misinformation and then vote out of a fearful gut reaction.

The point in this thread is just right: We are the change we need.

If we don't fight for our rights, no one else will.

Yes, we need allies. But the drive, passion and leadership must come from within our own community.

Then, we need to stand together, G -L-B-T-I-Q. Every letter means something and represents someone human.

[xchrom]

23. one of those replies i wish i could recommend.

[tekisui]

13. You are right.

I am married. My rights are not on the chopping block at every election. I can empathize, I can stand with you, I can march with you, I can support you. But, I do not feel what you feel. I am do not face the discrimination you do.

It is your struggle. And, I am offended and outraged that my country puts you in that position. And, I will do what I can to progress your rights.

[xchrom]

17. thank you very very much. -- nt

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

19. when one group of people aren't equal, no one is equal. IMHO. Equality is about everyone.

[xchrom]

21. that's your humble opinion. nt

[MNBrewer]

22. and we all have assholes, right?

[yardwork]

25. I tend to disagree. I see us as being in this together.

I think I understand where you're coming from, though. Everyone's personal identity deserves recognition. We are not part of some faceless borg.

[xchrom]

26. my sexual orientation is not my personal identitiy.

i don't know how to explain this -- but this struggle is not like the struggle for race equality or gender equality.

it looks -- on the surface like it -- but it is not.

we are culturally discriminated across the globe -- and we have across the globe -- developed a culture of our own.

like gender discrimination -- we are asking the world to change something that is incredbly deeply ingrained -- it exists in liberals, conservatives, any community you can think of that is the dominate sexual orientation.


and here in america we have led our own liberation efforts -- we have done the long hard hauling.
straights are welcome -- needed -- but it is our struggle.

[yardwork]

27. I think that every struggle has unique attributes.

I'm not sure that it is ever helpful to compare them.

[xchrom]

29. and i'm not comparing. nt

[mitchtv]

28. all in this together, but

some of us are being culled to be left behind