There Has Been No Dialogue Between Team O and Gay Leaders About CU vs. Marriage.

[bluedawg12]

The argument goes like this: PE Obama is elevating Rick Warren, because both Mr. Obama and Warren are in favor of civil unions, and well, something is better than nothing, we just need to wait. These things take time. Like the time right now, where pastors want to take away civil unions in Cleveland?

http://www.gaypeopleschronicle.com/stories08/december/1219081.htm

My question is, when do non-members of an oppressed group get to set that group’s agenda before the agenda is discussed with that groups leaders and an agreement reached?

Perhaps we all missed the big meeting with the transition team where gay leaders agreed to fight for civil unions and not full gay marriage equality rights?

No we didn’t. There was no such meeting. If only there had been any meeting with gay leaders about legislative matters.

Some want to portray gay activism as unrelentingly selfish, because we refuse to sit down and talk with Warren. Not true, a hug with Melissa is not dialogue nor is it a meeting of minds over political matters between Warren and gay leaders. No one has asked Warren to sit down and talk with gay leadership! Nor has he asked to do it.

This is, so far, the one and only meeting between the incoming transition team and gay rights leaders that I know of. It took pace before the public invitation to Warren was announced. HRC was later to be caught off guard. So much for inclusion and dialogue.

http://www.queerty.com/obama-transition-team-took-notes-listened-during-meeting-with-gay-rights-leaders-20081219/

Obama Transition Team 'Took Notes,' 'Listened' During Meeting With Gay Rights Leaders 12-19-08

Oh how kind of the incoming Obama administration to listen to the concerns of the wee gay community. Having pandered to the gay community during his entire campaign, the president-elect appears ready to actually hear what we have to say. Over a week ago, "gay activists met with members of President-elect Barack Obama’s transition team last week in a two-hour session focused on policy issues and presidential appointments," reports Southern Voice. Of course, this was before Obama selected Pastor Rick Warren to say a prayer at his inauguration.

"Rea Carey, executive director of the National Gay & Lesbian Task Force, said transition team officials were attentive during the meeting and very appreciative of the clarity of recommended policy changes. 'They were taking notes, they were listening, they were responding, they were asking questions, they were a very, very engaged transition team and that bodes well for our community moving forward,' she said.

"About 60 people attended the Dec. 10 meeting, including transition leaders such as John Podesta, co-chair of Obama’s transition team; Jim Messina, who is in charge of Obama’s personnel decisions; Mike Strautmanis, director of public liaison and intergovernmental affairs; Melanie Barnes, whom Obama tapped to become the White House’s domestic policy director; and Parag Mehta, the transition team’s liaison for minority groups, according to activists.

"Carey said activists also told transition officials that the gay community is interested in being part of the major issues of the day, including the economic crisis or health care reform.

"Activists made it clear that the gay community wants to be “part of creating solutions to these problems” and asked transition officials to make sure that “LGBT people are not left behind when these discussions are taking place,” Carey said.


"Solmonese said his role at the meeting was to discuss non-legislative changes that Obama’s administration could make to improve the lives of gay and transgender Americans.

"He said he presented the transition team an 80-page document of proposed changes."

[IndianaGreen]

1. Rick Warren is opposed to civil unions, as are all evangelicals like him

The same people that pushed for Prop 8 are opposed to civil unions, which they view as gay marriage lite.

[bluedawg12]

2. That's it in a nutshell, gay leadership has never been involved in this Warren matter.

No one representing our group has ever had a chance to question him, his intentions as far as working for "unity," or working on anything with the gay community and we do know he speaks with a forked tongue, has worked to be divisive and worked against gay civil rights. Oh and he knows how to co-opt people, and do photo-ops to his own advantage.

Hence, this is Orwellian.

[yardwork]

9. There's a myth going around DU now that Warren supports civil unions.

The latest "stfu we're doing this for your own good" argument is that Warren supports civil unions and all gay rights except marriage, and that Obama agrees, and together they will usher in a golden age of "equal rights just short of sacred marriage" for gay folk in the U.S. as long as queer people shut up and stop being so rude, in which case we'll get nothing.

Also, I was told today that my words on DU are far more violent than anything that happened during the Civil Rights Movement or Ghandi's struggles in India, which is why we don't have gay rights.

[ThomCat]

33. Whoever said that is a troll.

There is no way anyone could really believe any of that crap. They could only say it to deliberately poison the discussion. x(

[yardwork]

36. There are quite a few long-time trolls here, then.

[dkf]

3. You mean to say Rick Warren supports civil unions?

You have got to be kidding me. I thought he HATED gay people and wanted them dead or something. Are you for real?

[bluedawg12]

4. That's the argument we've been hearing from some. I don't buy it.

That's pretty much the point, we don't know what he really supports, there has been no dialogue with gay leadership and his media statements are all over the place.

Of course, he would be the first to tell you he loves gays. :sarcasm:

[dkf]

5. Well Christians are famous for their hate the sin love the sinner thing.

Being non-religious myself, I'm in the "just don't get it" crowd.

[bluedawg12]

6. Gays are famous for hate the bigot and hate the bigotry,too.

We're consistent like that! :evilgrin:

[dkf]

7. I'm consistent in my lack of hatred...

I'm a live and let live type myself. If people have these prejudices, I just feel bad for them.

[bluedawg12]

14. They are not letting us live full and equal lives.

Cleveland is an example of active, on-going anti-rights, here not even marriage- just civil unions-fought by a handful of vocal pastors and one or two very "special city council members."

http://www.gaypeopleschronicle.com/stories08/december/1219081.htm

[dkf]

21. Yes, but is it realistic to think anyone does?

People will always have their own ideas of how everyone else should live. When I read a lot of what people think is wrong, most of it has nothing to do with marriage, specifically, but general bad treatment.

Heck some guy was complaining he didn't want to have to explain why he couldn't donate blood to his employer.

If Rick Warren does support civil unions, he seems to be more part of the solution than a part of the problem to me. Not being religious and not being all gaga on the term "marriage" I think civil unions are the way to go. I think if the GLBT crowd had that as its goal, they would be fully in the right here. But I don't support marriage as a state institution specifically because religion is tied into it. I don't think religion should be involved in any government business anyway.

Making marriage the issue does seem to be shoving government business into religion. I can't support that specifically because I don't think those two should mix at all.

[bluedawg12]

22. Marriage as a State function is without any religious significance.

The fight for same sex marriage equal rights is about the legal rights conferred by States to married couples.

There are religious marriage ceremonies, those are not what the same sex equal rights fight is about.

[mitchtv]

30. you are entitiled to your opinion

I just don't feel seperate but equal serves society very well.

[Luminous Animal]

10. Actually he's on the record opposed to civil unions.

Q. One controversial moment for you in the last election was your support for proposition 8 in California. … Just to clarify, do you support civil unions or domestic partnerships?

A. (Warren) I don’t know if I’d use the term there but I support full equal rights for everybody in America. I don’t believe we should have unequal rights depending on particular lifestyles so I fully support equal rights.

Clarification from Pastor Warren 12/15: I now see you asked about civil UNIONS -and I responded by talking about civil RIGHTS. Sorry. They are two different issues. No American should ever be discriminated against because of their beliefs. Period. But a civil union is not a civil right. Nowhere in the constitution can you find the “right” to claim that any loving relationship identical to marriage. It’s just not there.

http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2008/12/Rick-Warren-Transcript.aspx?p=7

[bluedawg12]

15. He does that a lot-lying! That's why without a meeting w/gay leaders

who could at least get him on the record as to his intentions, he has not come out for anything resembling gay civil rights, without backtracking at a later date.

Good call on your link, thanks, worth saving.

[AntiFascist]

8. I would bet that Obama is "reaching out" to Warren for purely selfish political reasons...

it is giving a tremendous boost to his popularity (regardless of what it looks like over in GDP) and it helps repair the damage done to Obama in the eyes of the far right. Prop 8 and Cleveland are just collateral damage. He's high as a kite right now, and he's not going to let the gay and lesbian community get him down.

[Jamastiene]

24. Looks like he never learned the old parable about what goes up, MUST come down.

On his way back down, he will meet up with the same people he STOMPED INTO THE GROUND on the way up. It won't be pretty. Some of us have long memories.

[bluedawg12]

28. The time will come, they will want our money, activism and votes

good luck with that, for candidates who don't support full equality for gay people.

[bluedawg12]

26. The only unity is for the conservative religions and Warren gains.

The GLBTQ community will not, nor will the new POTUS. The political attacks now, are worse than before, Cleveland being an example.

[The Brethren]

11. I am absolutely disappointed and angry

at Obama for inviting Warren to be part of his "historical" inauguration. Obama is an intelligent man, unlike junior who can't figure out how to eat a pretzel, ride a bike, or zip up his pants before a mtg. with foreign leaders and the press. Obama should know exactly who Warren is and his bigoted, insulting comments against gay people and gay marriage. The press has stated Obama chose Warren as his way of reaching out to all groups and to giving the impression of inclusion.

That's all fine and well, except it's still a slap in the face. And if the press is right and this is Obama's logic for inviting Warren, then I'd like to know, of all the evangelists out there who he could have invited, why Warren? Likewise, if he wants to send a message of diversity and inclusion of the extreme right, why didn't' Obama invite an evangelist who publically advocates discriminating against black people? Or how about one who openly supports discrimination against women?

I generally find that talk is cheap and that actions speak louder then words. Obama showed me where his priorities lie. Except, I didn't expect him to be this stupid and callous, especially before he's even become our next President.

Good question btw, bluedawg.

[bluedawg12]

27. It just keeps drifting further from the promises

the inovcation, Warren being honored during the MLK ceremony week, the attack on some teensy little "non-rights" as in Cleveland, where it was just a registry and not CU's.

Based on campaing promises I expected leadership and well...CHANGE.

[The Brethren]

35. There maybe help for us yet.

I think you suffer from the same political condition that I do where we dare to "expect" things and actually believe even part of what we're told by politicians. I keep telling myself not to do this, but it must be a bipolar-political compulsion that I can't control. Every time it happens, I feel very good for awhile, then reality sets in -- usually in the form of the news.

On an optimistic note, I think there maybe new pills on the market for those like us. LOL However, I'm afraid meds won't cure what I fear is going to happen politically. Sorry, I'm not very confident that Obama and his new admin. will help us in away. In fact, he may just keep doing stupid things like inviting Warren to an important event instead.

The Cleveland article was so infuriating. But thank you for sharing it. I emailed a copy to family and friends. The ink hasn't even dried in Cleveland over the registry issue and already the religious bigots are trying to squish any kind of progress they can, esp. if it helps gay people.

[HamdenRice]

12. "when do non-members of an oppressed group get to set that group’s agenda "

Always. Every single time in history.

If you can get used to this simple fact, you will experience less outrage and more strategic thinking.

[bluedawg12]

13. So what is your analysis of the strategy taking place?

[Bluenorthwest]

16. It is the lack of honest words that is begining to tick me off

All of this talk of a table and sitting at it to have a dialouge...it is just talk. It never materializes in anyway save for some Fundie preacher spouting dogma from a spotlight.
I want them to stop with the false characterizations or make good on the lexicon they use. Show us the table. I've spent much of my life talking to religious people about 'hot button' issues and never has such rhetoric as Warren's been used by either side. Slander is not a part of dialouge. Being an honest broker is essential to dialouge. Let's see some of that, please.

[bluedawg12]

17. Honest broker is the exact word, I hoped PE Obama would be.

The outrage is not that we are asked to sit at the table with Warren, or those like him -the outrage is that we have NOT been asked.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. Exactly

[bluedawg12]

19. Prior to being told Obama-Warren are in favor of civil unions and we should rejoice

if the climate was truly one of openness and inclusion, gay leaders would have been part of the bottom up, rather than, top down agenda formulation, to see if our goal is equal marriage rights, rather than civil unions.

[The Brethren]

23. I agree an honest......and constructive dialogue

would always be welcomed. But I think one of the problems with Obama and his team towards the gay community is that they will do things mostly for show. Even inviting the likes of Warren is for show - to create the image of diversity and inclusion to the fundie base. The hell with us. We only mattered to him before the election.

What angers me even more about all of this, is that Obama's team held this mtg. prior to announcing that Obama had invited Warren. Apparently his team was not listening as well as they wanted to appear.

[bluedawg12]

25. I guess the republocrats want us to be good Log Cabin Democrats.

I agree, that meeting would have been a good time to at least give a heads up to the 60 gays leaders that were present for two hours hat in hand begging "not to be left behind," to say then, "Oh, yeah. The guy who just worked to take away marriage from an entire class of partial citizens, well, that guy is giving the invocation."

[The Brethren]

41. Ya, as if we want anything to with the likes

of the Log Cabin nutcases. I think what you're saying is Obama's team lacked the proverbial balls to tell them the truth. And of course, they would end their speech with: "Nothing personal".

[bluedawg12]

42. The gay leaders came away with nothing other than lots of notes.

That's what I got out of every story I read about the meeting. It was polite and nothing was offered.

That would be fine for the first round of any negotiations, but there was no mention of any further meetings planned with team O. That's troubling. Especially as fast as things move and as much the gay leadership seemed to beg to be included.

No it's nothing personal, just our lives. :eyes:

[The Brethren]

43. That is what I'm afraid we can expect

from Obama and co. is the polite, politically savvy, cold shoulder.

It's like a business mtg. where you're not interested in what the other parties have to say. So you keep it smooth, check your watch often and take off as soon as you can. Except, in a good business mtg., all parties walk away feeling they got something they wanted. That way everyone feels positive about it. Especially if you want to do more business with them in the future.

I'm not getting the feeling that's case here. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think very shortly after the Warren fiasco dies down, Obama's team will send us the "Priority list" and we won't be on it. Instead, it'll read: "Thanks for your support, money, your time...and of course, your votes, but we have other important things to deal with." Same ole, same ole.

Am heading out. Have a fun night!!

[bluedawg12]

44. Good feedback!

You take care! :hi:

[yardwork]

37. Thank you.

[xchrom]

20. recommend

[keepCAblue]

29. Solmonese/HRC submitted an 80-page doc to Obama?

Has Joe/HRC made this available to the LGBTQI community-at-large? HRC does not speak for me, not without my consent. I have no faith in the HRC ever since they threw transgenders under the bus in a failed attempt, along with Barney Frank, to pass ENDA (Employment Non-Discrimination Act).

Where can we LGBTQI citizens find this document and what input, if any, did the LGBTQI community-at-large have in the drafting of said document?

[bluedawg12]

31. Haven't seen anything on that document, that's a good question.

Have you checked the HRC website?

[keepCAblue]

32. Yes, checked their site but saw no mention of the doc or the meeting...n/t

[bluedawg12]

34. For some reason, the internet gay news sites

all covered this meeting with the same canned story and few facts.

It was a "happy story."

Thanks for checking. :hi:

[LostinVA]

38. Well, considering the new head of the DNC is ALSO anti-CU, I wouldn't hold your breathe

[TechBear_Seattle]

39. Obama is on-record as strongly opposing equal marriage

And no one with access to him dares to rock the boat, because we are unnecessary and irrelevant to any kind of power structure. The squeaky wheel may get the grease, but the yappy little dog gets tossed down the well.

And guess what? The GLBT community is not now and never has been the wheel.

[Jamastiene]

40. We are more like the exhaust pipe.

Sure, the wheels are under the bus, but the wheels are also under the FRONT of the bus. We are at the BACK and UNDER the bus. I'm getting sick of filtering their nasty exhaust.