Why Arguing With Fundies is a Waste of Time

[Chovexani]

I actually started to write this as a comment in another thread, but I thought it was long enough to be its own OP, and I think it's important to read in light of Rick Warren and all this talk from naive people about reaching out to fundies.

I see a lot of well-meaning people trying to argue religion but we will never, ever win that argument with fundies. I'm a recovering Evangelical and so I know the mindset very well. The minute you get into that argument, you've already lost, because you're choosing to engage them on their field by their terms. Biblical literalists do not acknowledge any other interpretation of Scripture besides their own as legitimate and the Word of God, and when people start bringing up how David was gay for Jonathan and that polyester is also an abomination according to Leviticus, I just cringe. Not because it's not true, but because that sort of thing just plays into their hands. You will never, ever win a scriptural argument with a Fundementalist Christian because all those holes, translation inaccuracies and contradictions have already been rationalized in their minds. It might be funny and entertaining to show up the fundie but you have just wasted your time, to be honest. Fundiegelical megachurches constantly drill into the sheep's heads that the Bible is the unchanging, literal Word of God, and that for certain things (What the Bible Says About _____), "the Bible is very clear" and any attempt at an alternate interpretation or even providing historical context that would explain that view as a product of its times (ie: Anything Paul Ever Said) is an attempt to discredit the Word by people inspired by The Enemy. Keep in mind, any time a fundie says "The Enemy", they're trying to talk about Satan without sounding crazy. Yes, liberal interpretations of Scripture are seen as Satanically inspired and explained away as false teachings. That sounds batshit insane, but it is the absolute truth. All interpretations that contradict their own are explained away with Jesus' words in Matthew 15: 9, "In vain do they worship me, teaching as commandments the doctrines of men." (And, yes, the irony thoroughly escapes them.)

You might be able to persuade the lukewarm "Cultural Christians"--the ones who only go to church on Christmas and Easter and for weddings and funerals, and vaguely think the Bible is against homosexuality but can't really point to any verses because they've never actually cracked the dusty thing open. But the Rick Warrens of the world will never be reasoned with. It's a losing game, and I think a lot of well-meaning liberal, mainline Christians (as well as the "reach out to the other side" people) don't understand that.

What we should be talking about to reasonable people IMO is that religious beliefs are not and have never been the sole basis of good law; that owes far more to the Code of Hammurabi than anything in the Bible. A hell of a lot of extremely bad laws, however, have had religion as their basis or justification (Prohibition, among other things). Despite the Dominionists' best efforts, we are not living in a theocracy, and one narrow interpretation of one religion does not get to dictate whether or not all citizens enjoy the same rights and responsibilities. Religious rule is shitty and horrible whether we're calling it Shari'a or we're beating people in the face with Bibles and we need to be hammering home to the lukewarm types is that the fundies will gun for them after they're done with us. Sometimes they're not even waiting. Just look at the anti-LGBT adoption statutes that also target cohabiting hetero couples and singles, etc. The minute they crack the door for laws based on religious beliefs, the fundies will tear on in and wreak havoc for them, too.

As for the fundies, fuck them. If they want to live in a country where a small group of religious authorities dictate our daily lives I cordially invite them to STFU and move to Saudi Arabia. That's not how we roll in America.

[YOY]

1. You do realize they are destining themselves for the bottom of our economic system?

The massive upswing in abusing the homeschooling system. The economic downturn. A smaller number of real jobs for educated people and a shrinking income on those decreasing jobs for those without a higher education, let alone a decent lower education.

Who is going to hire a kid who has been homeschooled K-12, no higher education, and still doesn't know jack?

They are truly sinking their own ship.

[bluedawg12]

9. I debated home school with a Mor*on fundy once.

She was convinced that her kids, taught by her, someone with no teaching credentials, were better educated than public school kids.

They have an entire home-school kit--for $$$ale of course--because it is a movement and there are all sorts of support groups, kits and programs that they utilize, and they are convinced they can do a better job at home, away from the "disruptive" atmosphere of public schools and other children raised by "godless" parents.

It's about getting federal funding to pay for home schooling. They don't care about public schools. They want to see public education destroyed. They don't care that there are not households where one parent can afford to stay home at teach.

Never mind the complete blind spot about science, evolution, genetics.

I wonder if anyone knows the demographics of the average homeshooling family? I have a huntch, but just wondering if anyone has data?

[YOY]

13. I can only speak from personal experience. Our most recent experience in the neighborhood:

There is a woman in our neighborhood who lives across from the park where we bring our daughter. Christian fundies of one stripe or another, we don't know.

She takes her 5 kids ages ranging from 15 to 2 to the park for "PE".

The 15-year-old girl comes up to my wife while the mother is occupied with the other kids. She's really desperate to be with kids her own age. She told her that she really wants to go to school. She only gets to be with kids/teens her own age at church. My wife feels so bad for her but what can one do?

The mother is pleasant but really shockingly dumb according to my wife. I have never talked to her. I know my wife. If someone is a little slow she wouldn't say anything...she's more than that.

She and her husband are doing those kids such a vast disservice it's nearly criminal.

[bluedawg12]

19. There seem to be no standards. Yes, there is testing.

They do brag about the kids doing well on test scores, but I don't really know how standardized those tests are, and I guess like you pointed out, one home schooler may not be well qualified at all to teach a wide range of ages. My gosh, trained teachers find it a challenge to teach a single level.

[yardwork]

22. A lot of those homeschool kits are also very racist.

Occasionally they are discussed in the news. One curriculum includes an entire section on how black slaves were "better off and happier as slaves." I'm not making this up.

There's a LOT of overlap between the extremist Christian right and the white supremacist movement. The homeschool cottage industry serves that market.

I'm not saying that all homeschoolers are racist or even that all homeschoolers are Christian fundamentalists. I know plenty who are extremely progressive and chose to homeschool their kids for entirely different reasons. I'm talking about the subset that is extremist radical right-wing and fundamentalist Christian. They are usually extremely racist and xenophobic as well.

An irony completely lost on many of those championing Rick Warren, including whoever invited him to the MLK, Jr. celebration.

[Chovexani]

25. All you have to do is look at homeschool demographics

Both on the left and right, the majority of homeschool families are white and middle class. And while progressive families that homeschool take great pains to ensure their children are exposed to a variety of cultures, for fundies keeping their kids away from brown heathens is exactly why a lot of them homeschool in the first place. There is a lot of racism at work in the fundie homeschool movement, note that out of all the right wingers the fundies are the ones who scream bloody murder the loudest at any mention of multiculturalism in schools. They quite literally do not want their children exposed to anyone or anything that is not white, European, Christian because they are terrified little Sarah will pierce her nose and start worshipping Ganesh, then bring home a dude named Jamal. I wish I was joking but that's how ignorant they are.

The ex-friend that I talked about in another reply didn't encounter any black people until she entered the workforce. Her entire circle of homeschool families was white and of the same socioeconomic class. And I was the first friend of color she'd ever had.

[yardwork]

40. Yes. That is exactly what I have observed. Exactly.

Except that I'm not entirely sure that all the progressive families who homeschool take particular pains to ensure that their children are exposed to folks outside their own culture. In those cases, it's not overt racism so much as a kind of uncaring, unaware privilege showing - similar to the attitude many liberals have toward gay rights. These folks won't go out of their way to do or say anything mean, but they also won't go out of their way to correct the many institutionalized inequalities still imposed on people of color in this country. In fact, by homeschooling they are contributing to the problem, but that's a separate rant.

Going back to the lunatic racists who fear any kind of curriculum that discusses the multi-ethnic, multi-gendered, multi-religious, multi-everything history of this nation and the world - their behavior continues all the way up, through higher education and beyond. They're real jerks.

[bluedawg12]

27. Bingo! That's why I said look at the demographics

it was all code about getting away from "that" element.

I kept saying but what about kids in public schools who can't afford to have one parent stay at home, don't we have a duty to fund public schools and make them the best they can be?

The answer was no.

They want to shiled kids from mixed classes, and those awful scientific teachings, and they want to give them an all American**** education right in the privacy of their non-diverse homes.

Oh yeah yes, and away from those same sex loving people "that will destroy our nation."

[Chovexani]

12. Yep, and I feel sorry for the kids who are going to suffer for it when they're older

I've seen this sort of thing up close and personal and it's not pretty. An ex-friend of mine is a poster child for the damage a cloistered fundie upbringing can do to a person. When I was living in Arizona, I had three housemates. We were all queer and Pagan; two of my roomies were a lesbian couple and the other was FtM. A close friend of ours from fandom decided to move in with us because she wanted to get away from her overbearing family and pursue a career in animation in a place where there was actually opportunity for that kind of thing rather than Bumblefuck, PA. My one roomie pushed for it even though the rest of us thought it would be a very bad move considering our friend was born again, homeschooled nearly her whole life and a very sheltered woman.

At first it went fine, despite her needing to adjust to life on the outside, as it were. She's a seamstress and wanted to do costuming work so we hooked her up with the local Rennies. But it all ended about as well as could be expected. The whole time she was there, her mother would call up and lay guilt trips on her for leaving and would constantly question her commitment to her faith. After about 7 months, Roomie flipped the fuck out and ran back to PA, skipping out on the lease as well as commissions and commitments to clients. She proceeded to tell tales of how we were trying to destroy her walk with the Lord and all this bullshit. That we prevented her from going to church and nonsense like that, all of which was patently untrue. I'm kind of wondering wtf she was expecting moving in with a bunch of raunchy Pagan dykes and our houseboy. Sadly she is back living at home, miserable and working an even shittier job than her old one, and feeling guilty for having ever strayed. And her parents are hammering into her that it's the sort of thing to be expected when you stray from God and try being of the world as opposed to being in it (another pithy fundie slogan).

Have I mentioned she's 29? And what's sad is I don't see her changing any time soon, that's how ingrained this shit is in her.

[yardwork]

42. There is a career path for some of them - they go to Bob Jones Univ and then Regency Law

and then they were sent to Iraq to "rebuild" it in the fundy fantasy image. We see how well that's worked.

[baldguy]

2. .

http://www.mrwiggleslovesyou.com/rehab477.html

(thanks Bartcop)

[Chovexani]

6. The only problem with that comic

Is Florida is barely hospitable also. :D

[DarkTirade]

35. I think you made a typo. You accidentally wrote the word 'barely' instead of 'totally not'.

:P

[noamnety]

3. Adding to your post ...

I used to be in a church orchestra, though I wasn't a member of the religion/church. I finally left after the pastor was preaching that "rational thought" was the work of Satan. He was telling the congregation specifically to avoid that, and avoid people who tried to use rational thought and rational arguments to persuade them.

How the hell are you going to argue with that mindset? If you make a point that is logically irrefutable, they've been taught to disregard it as evil just on principle.

[Chovexani]

14. They even have a term for that

"Doctrines of Devils". I wish I was making that up.

It's some scary stuff we're up against.

[yardwork]

43. And we are up against it because these folks want to take over the U.S.

Practically nobody believes me when I say this, but the evidence is all around. The Dominionist movement is determined to take over the governance of the U.S. and remake it in the image they have been brainwashed into believing is just.

Sarah Palin came from nowhere as a Dominionist candidate and just barely missed becoming vice president of the U.S.

[Warpy]

4. I used to outquote them as part of a general "piss off and die."

I found that outquoting them encouraged them to leave me alone, and that's all I ever wanted from them.

I told them they couldn't be convincingly moral until they swore off bacon and no-iron sheets and threw rocks at their children until they were dead for being sassy.

To their credit, most fundies know better than to bother me in the first place.

There is no way you can change a belief through logic. It just can't be done. The only chance of changing it is when the believer gets so buried in adverse events that the truth can no longer be denied.

Just save your breath and work to keep them out of politics forever.

[bluedawg12]

5. Now that the rec is done---Brava! So well stated.

It is not and never has been a level playing field.

One cannot start a rational discourse with another who claims that their entire point of view derives from an unimpeachable source, a higher power.

That debate leaves only two options:

1.) Challenge the authenticity of The Book ---> Blasphemy.
2.) Challenge the higher power---> Blasphemy.


My thinking is along the lines of appeal to a sense of fairness and justice.

Thank you for your work on this thread, it is a beautiful explanation from someone who knows all sides of the issue and has studied the matter.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

8. There Is One Problem With Appealing to Fairness...

with most of these people, bluedawg. They'll just say God ordained it a certain way so fair or not, that is how it must be.

I agree that arguing with fundies is a waste of time...I found that out when arguing 9/11 truth with a fundie a couple of years ago. They're cretins and don't want to be cured.

[bluedawg12]

10. Hiya RT! I need to clarify - I don't mean discuss fairness with fundies.

That's the point of this thread, as I see it, there is no dialogue with them.

Nothing will appeal, in the realm of reason, to someone who holds a primary overarching belief that some other thing is "wrong,immoral, sinful, unpatriotic and damaging to the very moral fiber and survival of this nation," based on their belief.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

17. Oops

Must Have misunderstood. My bad.

[bluedawg12]

18. The best part though - Is that we do agree. :)

Hope all is well with you two. Sending our best regards!

:hi:

[RetiredTrotskyite]

48. All's good for the moment, Bluedawg....

hope all is good with you two, too. And sorry for the misunderstanding.

[ruggerson]

7. Recommended

[donco6]

11. It's all true.

Former fundie here. Yes, I see threads all the time on this verse and that verse and why it doesn't mean this or that. It's all bullshit. While people argue about this tiny greek word versus that one, they miss the fact that the whole Bible is chock-full of crazy shit. And if it's OK to believe THIS crazy shit versus THAT crazy shit . . . well, there really isn't any point in arguing at all.

When engaging in a religious discussion with a fundie, I start out with, "I don't believe the Bible is the Word of God." That pretty much puts a damper on any further discussion.

[yardwork]

15. Very well said. You're right, and you're one of the very, very few who says this.

DU has become a place where "reach out to the other side" is used as an all-purpose excuse for ignoring human rights of all kinds. It's a comfort blanket for liberals who, while they wouldn't take a baseball bat to a gay person, don't want to be inconvenienced or required to show any courage by actually taking a stand. Their idea is that everyone is equally right and equally wrong at the same time, and if gay folks would just be a little "nicer" and listen to the advice of all-knowing straight people, everything will work out just fine.

When we try to explain why this doesn't work in many cases, we become the problem here.

[stopbush]

16. And yet you say that you're a recovering Evangelical which shows that there is hope

for change.

One never knows when the sanity that has been falling on the deaf-through-indoctrination ears of a fundie might suddenly break through.

[Chovexani]

23. I was 14 when I left the church.

Just FYI. 14 years later I'm still recovering, because much like alcoholism, there is no real cure for fundie.

[The Doctor.]

20. And that's barely the outer wall of the defense mechanisms.

One of my favorites in terms of it's simplicity... I call it 'the Lucifer Lock'.

At some point, you've broken past the blockade against reason they have set up and they start to see that indeed, you've made reasonable points. Usually, this is done through the very difficult task of getting them to stretch the imagination and put the shoe on the other foot.

For but a moment, they find themselves accepting a new concept. Suddenly, alarms go off and they remember something crucial that's been drilled into them; If an argument is convincing, it must be a trick!

They really, honest-to-God believe that since ONLY Satan is capable of changing their beliefs, then any point of reason, any fact, any argument that begins to do so is the machination of the Devil.

From that moment on, they just stop listening, tell you you spread lies and deception of the Devil, and end the conversation.

Every time.

Perfect immunity from enlightenment.

[Chovexani]

24. Yep.

It's a rather ingenious loop when you think about it. You never have to take responsibility for your beliefs or think about them at all, because there's always a neat rationalization for everything.

I can see why some would find comfort in that. For me, it'd be my worst nightmare.

[The Doctor.]

26. A self-reinforcing nightmare.

But it would tell you that all was ok.

It's harder to break out of than the Matrix... unless you're Keanu Reeves.

[Jamastiene]

21. Bravo!

I especially like that last two sentences.

"If they want to live in a country where a small group of religious authorities dictate our daily lives I cordially invite them to STFU and move to Saudi Arabia. That's not how we roll in America."

That sums it up perfectly.

[mitchtv]

28. So is arguing with so called Dems who think we have no

right to complain about the decisions of the incoming admin.

[checks-n-balances]

29. You're absolutely right & thanks for starting this thread

As Dr_Eldritch has pointed out, their ace-in-the-hole is the belief that rational arguments coming toward them = Satan trying to talk them out of their beliefs.

On the surface, they may be bitter and mean people, but on the inside there is mental and emotional instability - like a house of cards. They do not really believe in a gracious God, because if they were to dare to become "soft" on an issue like homosexuality, their god would send - not only the "sinners", but themselves - straight to Hell. Despite feeling quite secure about their own beliefs, deep down they are petrified of displeasing the god they believe in because that isn't a Loving God.

Therefore, to expect a fundamentalist to actually change through a rational argument would be to expect them to go through a mental/emotional meltdown as a result of their beliefs being challenged to the core. So, in a nutshell, that's why it's fruitless to expect logic to make any headway with them. Channel your efforts elsewhere.

I know this because I pretty much grew up with some family members that way.

(Edited for spelling)

[Fearless]

30. You are a self-described "recovering Evangelical"

And while Evangelical and fundie are not interchangeable necessarily, it begs my reply. You say that there is no point arguing with them, presumably because you don't believe we'll change their minds. However, you changed your mind. So I don't get your reasoning.

[Chovexani]

54. My personal story is very atypical.

In my case, I never really bought the fundie bill of goods. I went along with it because it was what expected, and I was longing for acceptance from my family. I'm a natural born seeker, though. While I'm pre-disposed to believing in spirituality, I have not ever accepted anything at face value. Even when I was trying my hardest to be a Good Christian, I constantly questioned everything. I even got kicked out of my youth group at church for it.

I was disillusioned early on and ended up leaving at 14, and started exploring other spiritual paths before settling on Wicca. I can honestly say that it wasn't armchair liberal theologians arguing with me about how I was reading the Bible wrong that got me to leave. It was rejection from my peers and my own stubborn refusal to accept the status quo that prompted it.

That's why I didn't really bring up why or how I left. While there are others like me out there, we're a distinct minority. Most fundies are raised that way, never get to the point where they feel comfortable enough to start questioning things, and that's not something that can be forced, from my experience. Like someone else said up thread, it's like being caught in the Matrix. Only a red pill alone isn't enough to free you from it. I do support groups like Soulforce though because it's very important for ex-fundies to have a support system of some kind. For many, leaving the church behind means leaving behind family, friends, and community.

I liken it unto an addiction, to be honest, which is why I use recovery language. No one can force someone into rehab and have it really work. The addict first has to admit to having a problem. Even now, as a free spirited, openly bisexual, kinky, polyamorous Pagan that has been out of the church for 10+ years, I still have moments of doubt and guilt that are lingering relics of my fundie past.

[tbyg52]

31. >>where a small group of religious authorities dictate our daily lives

But they see *themselves* as said authorities. They don't consider that they could find themselves under the rule of another religion or sect.

Just like fundies/Repugs have one set of rules for "us" and another set for "them."

[satya]

32. I was taught to respond "Get thee behind me, Satan" to anyone who questioned my beliefs.

It's a kind of programming, I guess -- to respond automatically with those words whenever the church dogma was challenged.

(ex Southern Baptist, now atheist, here). Like you, I left that church as soon as I could (age 15). The public library saved me -- I spent a lot of time on my own there, reading stuff that made me think critically about what I was being taught.

[barbtries]

33. great post.

i have a fundie friend. whenever we get to talking politics or what-have-you, she assumes we're both coming from the "bible is literal word of gawd" school and i always have to remind her that in the real world the bible is just a book. shortly thereafter we hang up because she refuses to acknowledge this reality. it's actually very much like beating one's head against the wall.

[xchrom]

34. recommend -- if you haven't read anything about arch bishop schori --

the head of the episcopal church in the usa -- i hope you do.

i think you would really like like her.

[DarkTirade]

36. I tried arguing with one of the 'nice' fundies who is firm in his beliefs, but doesn't try

to force them too hard on others beyond the basic 'spreading the word' evangelical crap. And he was like that too... the bible is true, therefore he's right. And that's not gonna change no matter how much the rest of the world may prove him wrong.

It got to the point where the nature of right vs. wrong came up, and his idea of right is 'whatever God tells you' and wrong is 'whatever God tells you not to do'.

It was just a lost cause and after I while I just stopped bothering.

[knitter4democracy]

37. As a former evangelical, I don't mind arguing with them.

Since many I have talked with already think I'm going to hell for converting away from the Nazarene church and into the Eastern Orthodox Church, I don't have much to lose.

I start with asking them what the Two Greatest Commandments are (a good fundy/evangelical can rattle them off no problem). Then I ask them who their neighbor is. That usually stops them in their tracks. Then I ask them if a pastor has ever explained who Samaritans are. I end with saying, if Jesus had come today instead, it would be the Parable of the HIV+ Gay Married Couple with Kids instead of the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

If they keep soldiering on, I ask them if they've read Philemon lately (have yet to get a yes on that). Then, I ask why their church is against slavery when there's tons more in the Bible that's pro-slavery than the, what, 12 verses about homosexual behavior. I actually shut up a Focus on the Family spokeswoman with that one.

[checks-n-balances]

38. Wow - interesting!!

It may come down to asking questions instead of arguing, and the questions need to be chosen carefully.

Thanks for posting that!!

[knitter4democracy]

44. And they're used to questions.

It's a major way preachers talk--ask a hypothetical and then answer themselves while the congregation nods. They're used to that tactic. :)

[yardwork]

41. You are a jewel.

[knitter4democracy]

45. Apparently not.

STBX just told me this afternoon that his mistress's fake boobs are better than my workaday ones (after nursing two kids for three and a half years, they're not exactly perky). So much for being a jewel. :rofl:

[yardwork]

46. He's an asshole and wouldn't know a real jewel from plastic costume jewelry.

[knitter4democracy]

47. Thanks for the giggle.

Heh. Actually, I haven't stopped giggling at his stupid-ass comment yet this evening. It's so dang absurd!

[bluedawg12]

39. I suspect more people leave due to self realization than from being debated.

Yes, people do leave church groups. But to affect a meaningful change in large numbers of people, the debate from the outside will not cause change. It would have to come from church leaders and pastors. The flock might follow.

[RetiredTrotskyite]

49. That's How I Left Orthodoxy

I realised that it was sexist and homophobic and that, in any case, I no longer believed what the Church believes, so off to the Old Catholics I went.

[AntiFascist]

50. Great post, sorry too late to rec

I think another problem is that Fundies are too hung up on religious law and following rules. They will blindly do this without even understanding the context of the New Testament, which was all about the "good news" and breaking from the old religious dogma. Instead, they have become hypnotized by a cult influenced by power-hungry elements trying to take over the world one government at a time.

[Deep13]

51. You can't reason with evil. nt

[Oeditpus Rex]

52. I don't understand why religious fundamentalism isn't considered a mental illness

Anyone who professes belief in an omniscient, omnipotent Big Thing in the Sky that's either going to save us all or destroy us all would be re-located to a room with tuck-and-roll wallpaper — unless the Big Thing is called "God." Then it's all fine and dandy, and they get to knock on our doors and tell us we need to put our lives in the hands of their Big Thing so we don't get destroyed.

[Chovexani]

55. That's why I like my Gods.

Hermes sounds like Steve Buscemi and mostly points out loose change in the sofa. Of course, Jesus appears to me as Buddy Christ in meditation and I always see him on a swing set with Ganesh.

I'm only sort of joking. ;)

[DarkTirade]

57. And Bacchus always throws a helluva party!

:beer:

[cliffordu]

53. Well....

"As for the fundies, fuck them. If they want to live in a country where a small group of religious authorities dictate our daily lives I cordially invite them to STFU and move to Saudi Arabia. That's not how we roll in America."

Yep....Precisely.

[Fearless]

56. How is asking them to move to Saudi Arabia any different then them asking us to move to Canada?

I thought we didn't play their games. I guess I was wrong.

[ThomCat]

58. The difference is that we're only retorically telling them to move to

Saudi Arabia. We're not really trying to take their homes, or anything else away from them. They really are out to take a hell of a lot away from us, and they are succeeding.

Them: words + power + intent

Us: words

The difference is startlingly obvious.

[Fearless]

59. You are seeing it from your eyes and your perspective not theirs.

To them, we are trying to take their way of life. We are trying to destroy the "American family" al la the 1950's. They also see us as an attack on their religious beliefs. What this thread suggests is to do to them exactly what they have done to us since Reagan. We were the "liberals" and the "pinko commies" and all that jazz. Now they're the "fundies" and we're treating them the same way they treated us for the past 30 years or more. Clearly that worked for them. :sarcasm: Clearly it's going to work for us. :eyes:

Words are the beginning. Is n*gger or f*ggot a word? Does it end there? Certainly not.

If we go down this path, we are no better than they were for the past 30 years.

[ThomCat]

60. If we don't fight back with words then we don't fight back at all.

And if we don't fight back at all then we let them roll over us.

I understand their perspective. I just refuse to give into it or give it legitimacy.

[Fearless]

61. Words are not our only weapon...

The strongest weapon of a politician is to make people believe that they are doing what they're doing for the other person's own good. It is possible, though difficult, to walk that line between each group so as to get everyone on your side. Obama has shown so far to be very adept at that. We'll see how that plays out.