When did this forum become the new Lounge?

[Zuiderelle]

:)

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

1. It seems like every time I leave for a while something interesting happens.

Darn.

[Yes We Did]

2. I wanted to send you an apology...

But you still have my PM's blocked...

So, I will just put it here.

You know which thread I am referring to, and I would like to say that I do apologize for offending you. It was not my intent. Sometimes, as I said, despite my greatest attempts I am not the most PC person in the world. In fact, I think I was probably trying a little too hard.

While I didn't offend everyone with it, it did upset you, and should have been reason enough for a heartfelt apology. Like I said, I was sincere with the original post, so I don't apologize for asking. I do however regret how I asked.

I hope you can accept my apology.

Demdog78

[Zuiderelle]

3. "While I didn't offend everyone with it" makes your apology seem a little qualified.

Like "I'm sorry that what I said offended you, even though I still mean what I said." I still don't quite understand how you could have been sincere with a question like "Gulp, Can I ask a question? What is there about being gay to be "proud" of?"

When I look back on that thread (of which you edited out the "Gulp" from the subject), it seems that quite a few of us were offended by it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=221&topic_id=83507

And then you posted this shortly after that one was locked:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=221&topic_id=83678

Which seemed incredibly condescending (and still does).

I don't know demdog78, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, I suppose, but this apology doesn't really seem to indicate to me that you understand how offensive your thread, or your responses to many of us in it, were.

[Yes We Did]

4. I do understand why you were offended.

I admit, I should have worded it differently. I write how I feel. I was nervous to post the question because I was afraid that some would think I was just trolling. That was why I put "gulp"

And yes, the question should have been worded differently. As I said before, I probably would have been better to say what about gay culture gives you the most prideful feelings.

As far as the other thread, I don't understand why that was condescending. Was it the title? I know it wasn't the comments in it. On second thought... and third reading... Yes, it was definitely the title. I wasn't trying to congratulate my self for self-enlightenment though. (you didn't say that, someone else did)

The whole thing... all I was trying to do was... I was just trying to do something nice... and maybe learn a few things too.

I thought getting all those personal stories and putting them in a thread could promote some unity. That's all I was trying to do.

When I get attacked, I get defensive. It's not an excuse, it's just the way I am. And when I am trying to do something nice, and I get attacked, I get pissed and hurt.

I am done making excuses for myself, but perhaps you can understand why I responded in the way I did.

Again though, I would like to apologize. That whole scenario played out completely wrong, and if I had it to do over, I would definitely done things differently.

Demdog

[Zuiderelle]

6. Apology accepted.

I understand feeling defensive when attacked.

[Yes We Did]

11. Thank you.

I look forward to... looking forward. :)

[Two Americas]

19. if I can horn in here, demdog...

I read through all of your posts from the links here. That gave me some insights.

You expressed surprise that people would post hateful things, and surprise that posts like that would not be yanked. There are many people here at DU that deny that hateful things toward gays are ever posted, and claim that all of the hatred is coming from the outraged gays who are hatefully labeling people as homophobic. I think the dispute and contention and the hard feelings are not so much about differing opinions as they are about differing perceptions of reality. People are "seeing" different realities. That makes understanding just about impossible.

I think that the only thing people ever asked for regarding the Warren issue was to be heard - not to be dismissed or ignored. That is the only way that we can overcome the gap - to understand the reality other people are living with. The resistance is not what people claim it to be - "don't get me wrong, I am on your side but I don't like the way you are going about this" - the resistance has been to listening, to hearing people. When people are not heard, are not listened to, naturally enough that is very frustrating and demeaning, and the inclination is to ramp up the rhetoric and to express resentment and anger. When those expressions of anger and resentment are then portrayed as the cause of the problem, and the original provocation is ignored, people justifiably feel even more marginalized, more dismissed and more mistreated. They ARE being dismissed and ignored and mistreated. When that is then followed by mocking and ridiculing and hostility the only sane and logical conclusion any of us could come to is that there is in fact hatred and bigotry toward GLBTQ people here. I am now absolutely dead certain that this is the case.

Being heard, being acknowledged and recognized and respected, is the very foundation of being seen as an equal, as a human being with full membership in the human community. All oppression and bigotry starts with not listening to people, not granting them that very basic human need. It is the first step in making people disappear, and the last step - the actual murdering of human beings - is a reality.

So why are we not listening?

Regarding your "gulp" thing - and I think you are a sincere person and I hope I can speak freely with you - I think that what happened for many people when the Warren discussions started is that they immediately started thinking about themselves, rather than about the issue. "Am I homophobic? Am I not? No, no, no I am nothing at all like that Warren asshole. Am I a good person? Am I a bigot? How dare they imply I am a bigot? Oh now I guess I will have to walk on eggshells. I don't think I am a bad person. Why should I have to walk on eggshells? I probably can't say anything without someone jumping on me. That isn't fair, is it? Why should I be abused? I don't hate gay people. I support gay rights."

It is impossible to listen to others when we are so obsessed with ourselves, when we can only see the issue in terms of what is going in internally. I think people started experiencing fear, confusion, shame, guilt and doubt in their minds about the Warren issue, and then projected that out onto others and blamed "the gays" for causing those feelings they had.

Wanna know how I can say this? Because that was my first reaction, too. But I came to this forum for the first time and I read what people had to say, and I shut up (big challenge for me.) I saw a lot of old friends, a lot of people I had admired over time, and I saw a few long time adversaries with whom I had argued with in the past. I saw some people I am crazy about, and some who have driven me crazy. Then I stumbled on the thread where people were posting their pictures, and I thought shit, wait a minute here, wait a minute, what is going on here? What am I feeling? I was sad, I was confused, I was hurt. My heart broke and I realized that I was overdue for one serious kick in the ass as a wake up call. That is what it took to get the truth through my thick skull.

Human beings. Human beings. Not "gays." WTF had I been thinking? It isn't about me. It doesn't matter what my "position" is on gay rights. It doesn't matter if I am offended. It doesn't matter if I think I have to walk on eggshells. All of that is petty and self-centered.

People want to be heard, need to be heard. It is a fundamental human need, and it is everyone's right to be heard. People were saying why can't we be heard? Why is our reality being denied? Why do we have to jump through hoops when others do not? Why are we permitted no mistakes? Why can't we be full partners, equal members of the community here? Why are we always put into a separate category, held to different standards?

All that we are being asked to do is listen. Stop worrying about ourselves and our eggshells and our resentment over being "labeled as bigots" and listen. We can do that. We should do that.

[Zuiderelle]

21. I have an admission to make.

That made me cry.

Thank you.

[jonnyblitz]

23. I wish some of the moderators who post snarky comments

when they lock threads related to our issues would come to the same realization you have. I have been reading your threads and posts lately and do appreciate the effort you have expended in understanding our issues and expressing your thoughts. I, for one, am glad to have you as an ally. thank you.:hi:

[racaulk]

24. Times like this are when I wish we could recommend replies on DU.

I think you really got to the heart of the issue with this post, Two Americas, and you stated it more succinctly and eloquently than I ever could have. Speaking and listening are both valuable communication skills, and the communication breaks down quickly when we don't focus on both sides of the communication cycle. Thank you for making this post.

I knew that lionesspriyanka's picture thread would have a healing effect, but I thought the healing would only occur within those of us GLBT DUers that were posting our pictures in that thread. I never, ever imagined that anyone else would heal, grow, and learn from viewing those pictures, and it makes me very happy to hear that this was your experience.

Your writing is so superb, and I truly appreciate all of your recent contributions on this topic. Like jonnyblitz just stated upthread, I am proud to have you as an ally.

Thank you. :hi:

[Yes We Did]

25. As always...

Another wonderful post. Thank you.

[xchrom]

5. because gay bars are more fun than a barrel of monkeys. nt

[DarkTirade]

7. ... and just how many barrels of monkeys have you been to?

:P

[xchrom]

10. 13

if you don't count the swimming suit optional gay motel i go to in palm springs.

[DarkTirade]

8. I was SO tempted the other day to post, "Is this the forum for posting copycats?"

after the slew of 'Is this the forum for asking questions?" ones. :P

[racaulk]

9. I think we should petition to have the GLBT forum renamed the "Ask A Gay" forum.

That's what it seems to be as of late.

:eyes:

[Zuiderelle]

12. I think that's a great idea. Seconded.

[Jamastiene]

13. Thirded.

:)

[yardwork]

16. 4thed

[bluedawg12]

22. 5thed, just another copycat.

:evilgrin:

[xchrom]

15. ooh! ooh! -- ask me ask me!!! nt

[Creideiki]

14. Careful--this might be a topic that causes discussion

and then it will get locked.

Only the most innocuous subjects are allowed any more. Otherwise the gays go nuclear, you know?

[yardwork]

17. "I go nuclear" sung to the tune of that Olivia Newton-John song.

I can't remember what it's called anymore, because every time I see the phrase "go nuclear" all I can remember is a stomping beat with "I go nuclear, nuclear....I go nuclear."

[donco6]

18. And we can't have them spilling out all over again.

Gawd, the havoc they can wreak is astonishing.

I can't remember when I've laughed so hard without booze involved.

[AntiFascist]

20. Because we have the best lounges:

http://glounge.com/dashboard/