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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:07 AM
Original message
Queer.
Do you identify as Queer, and if so, why do you and how do you define your Queerness? And when you come out as Queer, how do people react?

If you don't identify as Queer, how do you feel or what have been your reactions when someone identifies as Queer?

Extra credit for those that are able to explain how they are a straight Queer.

I went to a Queer Caucus session earlier this evening in Denver as an ally and have walked away with an entirely different understanding of not only myself, but a better understanding of those that identify how to define their expression.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. In my community, I'm a straight queer.
I didn't get it right away when I was called one. But, it was explained to me after a particularly heated city council meeting. My GLBT friends said that "queer" was in regards to a group or community or tribe. You could be gay or straight, but if you were part of the community, you were queer. Then there were the designations. You could be gay queer or lesbian queer, etc etc. Then, there were the straight queers. Those were the guys and gals like me that stood up for GLBT rights in the community while being hetero, I'm told. Again, no idea if this transcends beyond my area here. And if it doesn't and I've made myself out to be an idiot here, I'm sorry.

But, if it does, I'm am proud to be the biggest straight queer you'll ever meet.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. No, you get it, brother.
And like I needed to find an excuse to adore you even more, you come along and offer this most excellent explanation.

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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. No. It's turning the language on its head.
'Queer', in it's widest application means unusual, strange, unnatural.Homosexuality, however, is usual,ordinary and natural.The very opposite of 'queer'. That's the *point*.

Like "gay", if Queer acivists persist and are successful, 'queer' will evolve into a synonym for something undesireable. In a decade or two. Perhaps related to homosexuality, perhaps not.















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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Words get redeemed too. Look at 'geek' or 'nerd' or 'Yankee'
After the Internet revolution it became a lot cooler to be a geek. And I believe 'Yankee' was an insult the British used against Americans as well, but they took the insult and owned it, turning it around.
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Both examples are far fetched, seems to me.
Geekiness never carried the degree of social stigma that being gay does. And "yankee" still carries at least regional stigma.

A better example is the "N" word which was feared,scorned, shunned, embraced, ( actually took on a slew of variant spellings) and is now once again the object of pretty-much universal scorn.

One might say that racial attitudes have improved in the meantime but you'd have a hard time arguing that it was because the dread N word was briefly destigmatized or "owned" by the very community that is re-disowning it now.

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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
47. yankee
There is some controversy about the origins of the word "Yankee." Most likely "Jan Kees" - used as a derogatory term for Dutch people, and roughly meaning "Jan Cheese(head)" maybe. I think that people have to be pretty naive to think that a derogatory term as the origin of Yankee is unlikely. I would say that this is very likely, since it happens everywhere else with every other ethnic group. There is a movement now to claim that the true origin was "Janke" - "little Jan." That strikes me as an effort to "clean up" the history and make it cute and more benign. But even "little Jan" could well have been used as an ethnic slur. "No bigots here in America, just a bunch of cheerful happy colonists. Pass the turkey, there, redskin."

I am suspicious of calls for honoring the "real" meaning of words, since the "real" meaning so often reflects the prejudices of the dominant group. Those with power in other areas also have power to control the language. I see nothing wrong with taking it back.

One of the reasons that English is such a rich and diverse language is because of the long period during which it developed without interference from the upper class. The upper class has always tried to control the language, communications, and the culture of the common people. In this country that has been WASP males, and there are many ways that our language reflects this.

I think people have a right to claim the language as their own, and that discussions about words and how people want to use them - especially as a matter of self-determination - are valuable.
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Smarm E. Doofus Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. I'd say you're pretty ambitious.
>>>>>>>>>>>I am suspicious of calls for honoring the "real" meaning of words, since the "real" meaning so often reflects the prejudices of the dominant group. Those with power in other areas also have power to control the language. I see nothing wrong with taking it back.>>>>>>>>

To take it back it had to have belonged to us in the first place. It defies common sense to think that sexual minorities defined themselves as 'queer' ( uncommon,strange, unnatural} unless they were compelled to do so my sexual majorities. In which case, that's not ownership.

>>>>>One of the reasons that English is such a rich and diverse language is because of the long period during which it developed without interference from the upper class. The upper class has always tried to control the language, communications, and the culture of the common people. In this country that has been WASP males, and there are many ways that our language reflects this..<<<<<<

Dominance of elite groups is one of many linguistic variables. Follow the linguistic evolution of the N word for instance. Elite groups are not in the picture. N-word is being tossed and turned by in a sea of socio-poliical cross currents which have no discernable 'prime mover'.

>>>>>I think people have a right to claim the language as their own, and that discussions about words and how people want to use them - especially as a matter of self-determination - are valuable.>>>>>>>>>>

People can and will do as they please.And certainly the discussion is valuable. To me , the crucial function of lanuage is to communicate. Or to miscommunicate. The equation of homosexuality with queerness is miscommunication, so much in evidence to suggest that it is in no way, "unusual, strange, or unnatural".

There was an old lady who swallowed a lie.


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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. I don't agree
I think that language and culture is created by, and belongs to the common people.

The prime mover behind the n word is pretty obvious, I would think - slavery. Racism is an effect of slavery, not the other way around. "I don't care whether or not a person likes me, so long as they do not have the power to harm me." Had there not first been the power to harm people, the word would not be hurtful.

I wasn't weighing on one way or another on the word queer, by the way.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. PaulHo- is that what you meant?
>>Like "gay", if Queer acivists persist and are successful, 'queer' will evolve into a synonym for something undesireable<<

Or did you mean desireable?
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Yes. In the sense that....
"gay" has evolved ( among other meanings) as a synonym for "lame", "uncool", and /or "defective in any way" within USA youth culture.....at least in it's urban version.

A similar fate awaits 'queer', it seems likely.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. The general consensus was that Queer is an umbrella term.
And thinking outside of the gender ID or Expression of the person you have a sexual relationship with, Queer can be applied to the way you approach LGBT politics.

For instance, honestly discussing what the pressing every day issues are outside the heteronormative assimilation pushed by the shiny happy LGBT faces of our leadership.

I appreciate both sides of this discussion, regardless of my frame of reference (even though I felt a little attacked as the token gay white boy).
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. I'd prefer another word for what you are describing here:
>>>>>.And thinking outside of the gender ID or Expression of the person you have a sexual relationship with, Queer can be applied to the way you approach LGBT politics>>>>>

Traditionally, in street language, queer meant homo. ( I actually LIKE 'homo', BTW) Its history is as an epithet. It seems to me that to maximize clarity a better, more communicative and less ambiguous term should be employed...even coined, if necessary... for what you are describing.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. And I prefer Queer
Because it is a term that is inclusive of our non-gay allies.

At the end of the day, though, it has nothing to do with how we feel about how others should define themselves. Obviously, that's up to them, and shouldn't be influenced by what makes us more comfortable.

My motivation for sussing this out around here ultimately was to find out how others have dealt with a friend coming out as Queer, or to see how they would react if someone came out a Queer.
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Then I shall have to simply beat you senseless.
>>>> Because it is a term that is inclusive of our non-gay allies>>>>>>

Seriously, that's fine, just realize that outside of the confines of a few rarified urban circles no one is going to understand what you're referencing.


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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. You pretty much nailed it, Paul.
Not one of the non-gay politically active wordsmith's are likely to have the word "Queer" hissed at them on the street in a derogatory fashion.

For me, on the street, them would be fightin' words.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yes, and one name, Kinsey.
Really good movie on the guy btw:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0362269/

Anyway, so this guy was probably the first to really make a study of human sexual behaviour. After studying homosexuality, he finds almost immediately that there isn't an on/off switch, but a continuum between exclusively hetero and homosexual, and this continuum applies to many human sexual behaviours. So for me, I'm one of the people who's not easily defined by either straight or gay. in fact Kinsey's work suggests that most people lie somewhere on this continuum at neither extreme. So the queer identity for me means a self acceptance about my sexuality, but also the unwillingness to be defined by it. I've known pure gay guys who didn't want to be defined by their sexuality either. Because LBGT is too often a niche, a small restrictive niche. It feels like you're supposed to act, dress and talk a certain way. And maybe you don't. That's why the queer identity is such a liberating thing for so many people. It lets you say "I am what I am" and not worry about it.
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. I've always rejected Kinsey references
But appreciate the work his research has done to "normalize" the LGBT community.

And yet this is where a Queer walks a different path, which you touched upon in your post. The "purity" or "scale" is just another way to place someone into a box they can check off. We are more diverse than that as humans.

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agent46 Donating Member (424 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. Great Question
Edited on Sat Jan-31-09 12:40 AM by agent46
I've always believed that society must/will evolve to an understanding that gender is a spectrum, not a polarity. I would even go so far as to say that human sexuality is likely to evolve into a kind of androgyny of which we are now only dancing about the edges.

At the moment I'm beginning to read a fascinating book - "The Testosterone Files" by Max Wolf Valerio. It's a reflective and poetic memoir of an individual who underwent the transsexual journey from female to male. Amazing on many levels. As a matter of conjecture, I'd like to say It's possible we're only beginning to tap the extraordinary riches of human sexuality that our beautiful diversity as human beings offers. The social and political struggle of GLBT humans is essential to redefining ourselves as a species. I really do think it's that extraordinary. I'm a married heterosexual and I might be "queer" - but most assuredly I am strange!

Viva la Difference!
:evilgrin:

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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
7. I am straight, which is the only non-queer thing about me.
I would rather design game systems than talk with people in person, but I become upset if anyone looks at my systems. They are my diary.

I chew on my clothing and blankets.

I would rather buy animated porn than live action porn.

I am a hardcore atheist, but I enjoy religion.

I have to constantly remind myself not to talk to myself when I am in public. I often fail, and sometimes even get caught using wild hand gestures.

I am a man with no interest in sports, cars, tools, guns, hunting, or fishing, and I have a low sex drive.

When people talk to me in person, I always wonder why they are talking to me and how to make them stop without hurting their feelings.

I love the smell of cigarette smoke.

I hate getting phone calls. When I lived by myself, the ringer was always off.

I believe that our justice system is overly harsh and sadistic, but I love watching people being torn apart in zombie movies.

When I was in high school I often told people I was gay because I didn't want to be friends with homophobes.

I love animals, as long as they are not near me.

I sometimes commit crimes just for the sake of committing crimes, but I feel guilty if I accidentally commit a crime.

I am sexually attracted to glasses.

I have read more poetry than I have written.

If I am given too much change at the store, I will give it back, but I would never turn in a shoplifter.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I like the way you think.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Probably the most interesting personal revalation I have read in a while.
I thnk we should all do a private Zombie test and see how we come out. It would be of interest.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
13. Hate the word, can't self-identify with it.
I know the theory about "reclaiming" it, I just still regard it as a pejorative that I remember from childhood and won't use the word. No offense or judgment from those who choose to use the identification, just not for me.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. nor I
!
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
43. i can agree with this response
don't have a problem with other glbt's using the word, but it doesn't feel right for me personally
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
19. I Don't Find It Necessary
Why do we need a word to categorize people who aren't gay but are gay-friendly? The whole point we're trying to make in the fight to be treated equally...is to be treated equally. Why label people for associations? We are gay because we are sexually attracted to people of the same sex. Our straight friends are NOT gay - they will never be gay. Why is it necessary to "identify" them as anything other than decent straight people?

I also agree with Paul...the word "Queer" MEANS unnatural, or odd. It's a bad idea to label people on your side as negative. I'm all for the famous gay irreverence (see my embrace of the term "fag hag"), but if you're talking about politizing this by-definition negative word and applying it to a whole group, I think it's a poor...choice.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. I think you are right on the mark.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
20. I guess I'm a different generation.
No, I don't use queer to refer to myself or others. It don't find it particularly objectionable, as there have been long efforts to redeem the word. But I just don't care for it personally.
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lightningandsnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
21. I like it because it's a broad term.
Anyone who identifies outside of traditional sexual and gender boundaries can be considered queer. I like it because I'm kind of muddy and fluid in my sexual orientation - I'm bi, but I like women more, and straight, non-trans men do nothing for me. Also, I'm not always a fan of the term "bisexual" because it implies there are only two genders. "Queer" or, failing that, "Pansexual" is more inclusive.

Also, it helps to include people who defy sexual and gender boundaries who might not fit in to the strict categories of L, G, B, or T. Polyamory, asexuality, cross-dressing, and kink, among other things are all queer in a way, and while the issues vary from group to group, "queer" is a good unifying term. Also, straight allies with a large investment in the queer community can also be considered queer, in a way.

As an example, I have a male-assigned friend who is mostly attracted to women, but is bigender - having a male and a female persona. Since s/he is happy with hir body and doesn't wish, at this point, to live full time as a female, s/he doesn't really identify as trans. However, the way s/he expresses hir gender can certainly be considered queer. Since s/he sometimes has to live with the same danger that non-passing trans people live with, and when s/he is female, s/he is a lesbian, it's not a question of a straight person who doesn't understand discrimination, either.

I think the community can gain a lot from reaching out, rather than saying "You're neither L, G, B, or T, so get out."
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DarkTirade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I think you pretty much covered my opinion there.
Although I just have to add that there are also people like me who are just a l'il bit genderqueer. I still totally identify as male 100% of the time, but I've never watched a sports game, I'm willing to ask for directions, I can put the toilet seat down, and I'd much rather be pretty than handsome. :P
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Couldn't have said it any better.
I'm more politically Queer, in regards to rejecting the patriarchy and matriarchy telling me what is 'correct' and in which ways we should act in order to assimilate and make not only the LGBT 'elders' approve, but the broader heteronormative society, as well.

I'm not afforded permission to talk about white and male privilege to other gay white men. The 'gay' allegedly trumps all. Fuck that shit. I've been sick of being forced to listen to the exclusionary, elitist attitudes not only here, but in real life.

The controversies that have erupted since the election offer numerous examples of just how ingrained these things are in the personality and character of some posters on this site, regardless if they recognize it or not. It's the narrow-mindedness, to some extent, that's gotten kind of boring.
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foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Oh, you sweet, young thing. .
Allow me to haul my decrepit ass out from between the quote marks of 'elder'-hood to note that the Queer sensibility/understanding has been alive at least since Stonewall, and probably earlier. Some of us have continued on that path, as Chovexani put it, by embracing Otherness as a source of power. I use the term Queer sometimes, but more often lazily lapse into using the term Gay because, for me, Gay still encompasses what you are describing as Queer. I'm not knocking those who choose to use Queer if it speaks to their experience; after all, different times call for different terms.

I share your concerns about the assimilationist tendencies of the modern LGBTQ leadership. Even so, I fight for marriage equality because it is important to our collective humanity to be recognized as equal under the law. My personal stake in the marriage fight is the rights and privileges that accompany the legal status (I want to make sure I'm able to pass on my property, etc. to my partner--this assumes a greater urgency as I'm not getting any younger). I am not, however, in search of social validation for me or my relationship. In many ways, which I won't go into here, our relationships are NOT like those of heterosexual couples; therefore the actual word "marriage" is not of critical importance to me. You may have a different need. I will support your right to define yourself and your relationships as you choose without direction from the larger heterosexual society or the conventional LGBTQ leadership. I personally think that Otherness demands a certain degree of "formlessness" and that's a tip of the Witch hat to Chovexani.:hi:
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JackBeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Just how young do you really think I am?
And for the record, I didn't say 'elderly', I specifically referenced our community's 'elders' in regards to those that have been appointed in charge.
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foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. I dunno. Seventy-something?
I've seen your picture. You've held up pretty well.:P
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
26. I identify as Queer.
Edited on Sat Jan-31-09 03:09 PM by Chovexani
Prefacing this wall of text by saying that this is only my self-educated G.E.D. take on What It Means To Be Queer and that I am only speaking for myself and my own thoughts and experiences, not for anyone else who identifies that way. YMMV, offer void where prohibited, etc.

I identify as a Radical Queer. I've never felt comfortable in "normal" hetero society, ever. I've always questioned everything, and continually do so, it's just part of my nature. I never accept the status quo. Pretty much everything about me is weird, and has been from Zero Hour. Seriously, I am pretty much the religious reich's worst nightmare. I'm an uppity feminist woman of color, I'm militantly bisexual to the point where being attracted to one gender, regardless of what that gender might be, is totally foreign to me. I'm a witch/sorceress/occultist in a society that generally freaks the fuck out over words like that. (That gag bumpersticker that says "Sorry I missed church, I was practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian"? For me it is totally. Fucking. True.) I'm polyamorous because I'm just not wired to be monogamous, nor would I want to be. I'm Gothic, in attitude and personal aesthetic. I write dark fantasy/sci-fi, and erotic fan-and-original fiction of every orientation and gender makeup. I'm a cisgendered woman who loves technology. I say this not to play some sick game of oneupsmanship or to show what a speshul snowflake I am. This is to say "Queer" to me is about connecting the dots and seeing how these aspects of my life that scare the shit out of various people all relate to each other. It's also about finding solidarity, an Island of Misfit Toys for those of us who not only don't fit into neat boxes of what it means to be LGBT, but wear that as a badge of honor. "Queer" is for anyone who was ever called a freak without any trace of humor or irony. It's about reclaiming that Otherness the cisgendered, heteronormative world hates and shuns and wields as a Shaming Hammer and turning it into a source of power. Allow me to get hippie for a minute and say it's fuckin' alchemy, man.

I spent a good chunk of my life hating myself because I just couldn't be like everyone else. Because I was the working class black kid surrounded by rich WASPs, because I was the tall, gangly, flat-chested tomboy surrounded by tiny, petite femme girls. Because I was too straight for the lesbians and too gay for the heteros. Because I was brainy and creative rather than wallowing in stupidity and wearing ignorance as as badge of honor. There were so many reasons, some I am still working on (it's a process!). But "Queer" says to me: it's okay to be different. It's okay to be strange, to confuse people's preconceived expectations of what you SHOULD be given x,y,z factors about myself. Not only is it okay, but it's as legitimate and beautiful as anything "normal".

I respect folks who share a different view, and I only ask for that same respect in kind. For instance, I will fight tooth and nail for marriage equality despite the fact that my views on marriage are radically different than mainstream society's. The house in suburbia with the white picket fence, 2.5 kids and dog kind of life is so DO NOT WANT for me, I do not begrudge anyone the right to pursue that for themselves, nor do I think it's somehow wrong or less evolved to want that. What I fight for is our right to have the ability to make those choices for ourselves and not have them made for us by others, let alone by bigots and hatemongers that would see us six feet under before we're treated like equal citizens under the law. But by the same token I am not going to put a paper bag over my head or take off my Siouxsie eyeliner or make myself invisible at the Pride Parade just because you're afraid I'm making you "look bad". It's my community, too.


(The usual disclaimer: I have nothing but the deepest respect for people in the LGBT community for whom too much hurt and pain is associated with the word for it to ever be reclaimed, and it bugs the shit out of me that some who identify as Queer place a value judgment on it like somehow we're more enlightened for it. We are all climbing this mountain together, the paths themselves are far less important than the shared experience of the journey. Oh shit, I'm showing my Witchy hat again.)
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
28. when i was queer i identified as such. now that my life is so very normalized, it seems a bit of a
lie.

hope that makes sense.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
30. Not anymore--because I don't think there's anything 'queer' about being 'queer'.
I think anti-trans attitudes and lives lived according to heterosexual ritual for the sake of propriety are "queer". I think creative, expressive, sexual beings in loving relationships are healthy and normal. I don't think heterosexuals are in some way "normal."

I'm also getting pretty bored with the division of "queer" and "L/G" identities. Frankly, I think its class politics played out with identity politics (ie: I'm sick of hearing "all those boughsie gays and lesbian assimilationists who want to get married vs all us 'queers' who are fighting for the disenfranchised, etc. etc." All too often the reality its the working-class LGBT people need marriage protections to survive and the "radical queers" opposing gay marriage are "boughsie" trust-fund kids.

There is and has always been diversity of expression in the LGBT community. We don't have a name. I'm okay with that. I'm a femme lesbian in a relationship with a transgendered hard butch and sometimes we run into some really queer people who want to kick our asses for some inexplicable reason. :shrug:
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. True, queer, would be the gay hating, violent, bigots.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Why is it that we rarely discuss gay women that are beated/killed for being too masculine?
It just dawned on me.

This is an interesting point you raised and seldom discussed.

>>I'm a femme lesbian in a relationship with a transgendered hard butch and sometimes we run into some really queer people who want to kick our asses for some inexplicable reason. <<

:grr:
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I don't know. Maybe part of that lesbian invisibility thing.
:shrug:
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. I know. Me too.
:shrug:
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. There isn't inherently a division there though in terms of goals.
Edited on Mon Feb-02-09 01:48 PM by Chovexani
Being a radical queer doesn't mean you're not also fighting for the rights of "bougie assimilationists". I know plenty of people who would never dream of getting married for a variety of reasons that still fight for the privilege on principle, and for the sake of those who want it (read: it should be up to individuals to make that choice, not a bigoted government). Shit, I wouldn't ever get married except to extend health benefits to my gf, and I still fight for it. The wanky ones are in the minority, and are frankly vastly outnumbered by the "bougie assimilationists" who wish us freaky types would disappear and stop making them look bad, are always trying to kick drag queens out the Pride Parade, etc. Seriously, there's way more of that than radical anti-marriage queers, especially in terms of who has the money and power.

And I really resent the notion that we're all rich trust fund kids--uh, no, we're really not. I don't know what reality you're describing, because in the one I live in it's the radicals who are working class/poor (self included) and are too busy worrying about basic survival to give a shit about marriage and the ones who want to get married are all rich fucks in Chelsea who can afford Pottery Barn enough to want to get registered there. Anecdotal evidence can go either way, really, and is not really helpful.

I think you're trying to see enemies where none exist, tbh. Sounds to me like you're making some pretty shitty generalizations about a lot of people based on some bad experiences. And yes, there's always been diversity in the community but it's not always been welcomed--hence the need for more and more letters tacked onto the acronym. By this logic those are unnecessary too.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
32. Not a fan of it
It feels like a political and identity construct, and an anachronistic one at that.

It's difficult to articulate, as it is more an impression and feeling on my part, but when someone identifies as queer, I often interpret an implied political identity behind it. In my experience, the people I've met who use the term tend to be very left-wing, very pro-radical, with a streak of undirected rebellion and a deep sense of activism. Those aren't necessarily bad things, but coming from someone who is left of center, I don't much relate to the sensibility behind the term.

I concede, however, that my inability to relate to the term is precisely due to those people's efforts. For that, I owe them a debt of gratitude. That I grew up in an environment where being gay wasn't a life-stopping deal and where it's one of the least interesting things about me to people is because there were queers out there paving the way.

However, given that, I think we've moved beyond the impressions and concepts behind queer, and that it is something of a relic of a different age of activism. We're elsewhere now, though where exactly that is I'm still working out.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Where we're at now, is I don't say "gay" or "queer" I'll just say I have a partner.
The day I walk around the streets of my town saying I am "queer" will be the day people notice there are pigs flying out of my @ss,too.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. You've hit on it
I can count on one hand the number of times I've said "I'm gay" to anyone over the past year or so. But I reference my boyfriend all the time, as innocuously and without thought as heterosexuals reference their partners. What I failed to articulate very well in the post above is that "queer" seems to denote a separateness, being different and apart and disincluded with the rest of society.

But my entire attitude and disposition is that I, we, are included with everyone else. We are and should be as part of everything and everyone as anyone else. That's the world I want for the GLBTers who come after me, and the notion of queerness feels like it's tugging us backward a bit.
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bluedawg12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Exactly. We need a sense of community while we fight for rights
but, in real life, I actually fight not to have my sexuality be the focus of things, but rather, who I am.

I don't talk to my neighbors and think, "Ah, straight people."

I hope they don't stand around my yard talking to me about the trees and nature thinking, "Queer." :eyes:

Social equality will be when it's a non-issue.
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lightningandsnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. The problem with that (for me, at least) is...
I'm bisexual, so if I have a male partner people automatically assume I'm straight. If I have a female partner people automatically assume I'm a lesbian.

Just going on a tangent, here...
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #41
48. And that really boils down what "queer" means to me.
I find it interesting that in these discussions, it's never the more invisible/marginalized parts of the community that are down on the word. It's the folks for whom the word isn't really necessary that tend to have a problem with it.

That's not a value judgment, btw, just an observation.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-09 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
42. No, I don't.
I'm straight. I'm not especially girly, but I don't really push the envelope of gender expectations all that much, at least if one has relatively modern notions of women as capable and competent. I think one would have to really stretch any reasonable definition of queerness to include hetero people of uncomplicated gender identity, no matter what their politics.

I prefer to identify as an ally*, because my relationship to and role in this struggle is different. I can count on one hand with fingers left over the number of times anybody's ever called me a dyke or something like that. I never had to come out to anybody, never feared being kicked out of my home or beat up at school for being who I am. Nobody ever put me in therapy for expressing my internal feelings about my gender or my sexuality. In short, I have the enormous social advantage of being a straight person with a relatively decent overlap between my gender identity and my physical sex. Identifying as queer would involve, to me, appropriating another's struggle as my own, and thus diminishing it by failing to properly respect differences in experience.

But I respect others who feel differently. Obviously.

*I like "ally" better than "straight ally" because I really don't like emphasizing points of difference.
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Eryemil Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
45. Yup, love the word
Its more or less my umbrella term for gay, lesbian, bi, anyone in the trans spectrum, straight people that identify with gay culture and so on.
I find the stupid acronyms ridiculous and try to use them as rarely as possible.

Then again, I am 19yo guy. The word probably does not have as much baggage for my generation as it does for older queers. (Hah)
Faggot on the other hand I don't really like. It is one word the community has never tried to appropriate and very much owned by the bigots.
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sundog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
46. i look at the "queer" like i look at "radical faerie"
if you happen to live in an environment where such terms are commonplace or you're at a burning man village, by all means go for it

i don't run in those circles, so the term doesn't really work for me

but if others feel good using it, that's their prerogative
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-09 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
51. I hate the word. I won't use it.
I am 53 years old and female and straight.

When I was in junior high and high school, I went through seven years of hell, EVERY GODDAMN DAY.

I got called 'queer' constantly. That was the highest insult you could throw at someone. This was before the word "gay" was popular. This was 1966-1972.

It brings back too many horrid memories. The school wouldn't do a damn thing about bullying. I just told these kids to go to hell.

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