Hate to say I told you so but the evidence Sam Adams bedded Beau Breedlove before age 18 is mounting

[dsc]

http://www.katu.com/news/38733737.html#idc-container

According to Breedlove's friend, after that admission, Beau sent him a text message telling him that the sexual relationship started when Beau was still 17 years old.

When asked if he was convinced that Adams had sex with Breedlove when the young man was 17 years old, his friend said "yes."

snip


Breedlove's father, Marty Breedlove, told KATU News by phone he believes his son had sex with the mayor before he turned 18 years old. He said he bases that belief on the kissing his son talked about and the numerous trips to Portland when his son was only 17 years old. However, he says his son has not told him exactly how old he was when the sex began.

end of quote

No it isn't definative but it is piling up. One has to suspend disbelief to believe Adams at this point. It is a true shame but he did this to himself and ultimately made it harder for the next gay guy or lesbian who runs for office.

[county worker]

1. I forget, how will this stimulate the economy?

[Chovexani]

45. The inevitable porn parodies that will be made

I bet someone's already filming one as we speak.

[dsc]

2. actually book sales and movie deals employ lots of people

[Ezlivin]

3. Mounting?

Hmmm, nice choice of words there.

:o

[predfan]

4. He also made it harder.

[Captain Hilts]

6. I don't think you get the thrust of the OP's point...nt

[GodlessBiker]

43. I first heard this story from a seaman.

[MNBrewer]

11. and "Breedlove"

[Captain Hilts]

5. 'Mounting' evidence?

[Toasterlad]

7. And I Should Care Because....?

I didn't think Adams did anything morally reprehensible when I thought he was banging an 18 year old, and I certainly am not about to change my opinion just because the banging apparently happened a few months earlier than Adams said it did.

Despite all the hand-wringing cries of "We must protect the children!" our society wallows in, I have a very hard time feeling any concern over a young man who, by all accounts, engaged in a completely consentual relationship with an older man. Young men are not young women, and young gay men are not young straight men. Ask the kid if feels like he was forced into anything, and if he says yes, then come talk to me about it. Until then, it's nobody else's business. Is it technically breaking the law if the kid was banged before 18? Sure. Is it an arbitrary and semi-ludicrous law when applied to this situation? Absolutely.

Dsc, I realize that, as a teacher, you are especially sensitive to issues of child abuse, sexual or otherwise, and I think that's great. You SHOULD feel like that, in your position. But not all cases of under-18 boinking are child abuse, and I haven't heard anything to make me believe this was. Is Adams a liar? Certainly. Is he a criminal? Possibly, technically. Is he a sexual predator? I doubt it.

[dsc]

17. breaking the law is breaking the law

and it is growing apparent he broke the law.

[bluedawg12]

32. Lot's of laws are broken everyday.

is that what's really bothering you?

[Toasterlad]

49. Would You Be Upset If He Lied About Running a Red Light?

I agree with Bluedawg. I don't think that's what's REALLY bothering you.

[dsc]

57. One doesn't go to prision for running red lights

the fact is he lied and he didn't just lie a little here. He painted the man, who was also gay btw, who trufully reported what he did as a sleezy liar in order to get elected. Worse he played the "gays get accused of sleeping with those they mentor so they don't mentor kids" card making it that much harder for adults to mentor gay kids. It was nothing short of despicable.

[readmoreoften]

62. Maybe in the tabloid of your mind it's "apparent'. It's like you want him to be guilty of something.

A father's speculation about what his son did on a trip to Portland, Oregon is not "evidence" of anything. If what parents imagine their kids do is "evidence" I would have been running a prostitution ring when I was sixteen years old like my mother guessed instead of simply having had attended a party at a motel.

And a teenage acquaintance's claim of "text messages" is equally suspect. Not only are text messages notoriously vague, there are about 10,000 reasons why this kid could be making the story up: jealousy, need for attention, etc. Not to mention that the kid could've LIED to his friend in an immature attempt to impress him.

Ultimately, the person who was once a 17 3/4 year old who did or didn't have sex with a political official is an adult who is old enough to tell his story now. And his story is that he was a legal adult when they consummated their relationship. You don't know the truth. Only the people involved know the truth.

Your need to believe that the fantasies or interpretations of two "non-witnesses" are "evidence" could make me speculate some things about yourself. But those would not be another other than speculations as well. AKA--gossipy bullshit.

[TheWraith]

39. I think you underestimate the gray-area qualities here.

You say "Young men are not young women, and young gay men are not young straight men." Reality is though that the same qualities apply to young gay men that apply to all other teenagers, i.e. that there's far too many variables when it comes to relationships with adults to make generalizations.

Despite the stereotypes that men always want sex and women always prefer not to, there's plenty of proof that those assumptions mean little in the real world. There are boys who are mentally or emotionally hurt by adult sexual contact, and there's girls who are perfectly comfortable and mature with it. And vice versa. It's almost impossible to know from something as sketchy as news reports whether an adult took advantage of a confused teenager, or whether they had a reasonable and mature relationship with somebody who just happened to be below the age of consent.

In short, it's kind of absurd to try and draw any lines here as to what did or didn't happen. There's too many variables and assumptions.

[Toasterlad]

48. "too many variables when it comes to relationships with adults to make generalizations."

Exactly.

And the generalization that is most typically drawn in cases where a legal minor is involved - no matter which gender - is that the adult involved is a sexual predator who used an innocent child.

I will grant you that not all young gay men always want sex. However, I don't think it would be an unfair generalization to say that the majority of them DO. And I would have completely abstained from comment on this issue if there had been the slightest bit of evidence to suggest that the young man in question was anything other than a completely willing participant in this relationship. You say that it's almost impossible to know from news reports whether an adult took advantage of a confused teenager. That means the opposite is also true. And since the teenage in question has not yet held a news conference to declare how he was victimized by Adams, and since no one else involved in the case has yet to suggest that that was the case, and since a man in this country is innocent until proven guilty, I have to assume that the only REAL issue here is that Adams lied about not sleeping with this kid. Which, given the completely overblown reaction to the news, is completely understandable.

[TheWraith]

54. Not nitpicking...

"And the generalization that is most typically drawn in cases where a legal minor is involved - no matter which gender - is that the adult involved is a sexual predator who used an innocent child."

When the adult is a man, yes. There's a double standard for older women and young boys that I won't get into, but it's not relevant here anyway.

I would also suggest that there's no guarantee a minor who had been wronged would necessarily jump in front of a camera. I've got no reason to think that Adams acted inappropriately, but frankly in these cases I caution against making any assumptions for or against based on no evidence. That being the case, I don't see why it's an issue at all. The relationship can't be accurately judged except by those close to it, and the question of lying boils down to local politics.

[Lyric]

56. What "double standard?"

How many adult women teachers have we seen in the news in the past few years, being publicly pilloried as sex offenders and predators for screwing teenage students? If you're trying to suggest that the media lets women off "easy" for having sex with minors, then you're full of crap.

If anything, women who do so are viewed more negatively than men, thanks to stupid gender stereotypes. Oh sure, the coach boinking the 17-year-old girl's soccer team player was a naughty boy, but you know how men can be. But if a woman does the same? Oh the horror! 'Cause all women are supposed to be motherly and matronly and above the lustful ways of men.

:crazy:

Now here's a REAL double-standard for you: men who go around screwing everything that holds still long enough are viewed by society at large as studly. Women who do the same are "slutty" and "easy." Not to mention how often we are referred to (by men) as nothing more than a convenient set of warm holes in which to stuff a penis. I can't even describe how much that kind of crap pisses me off. Whenever I hear some moronic male blathering to his buddies about how he's gonna get himself a "piece of that ass," I want to break things over his head. Large, HEAVY things. And then I want to smack the young women who have become so used to being objectified that they honestly aren't bothered by it, because to them, that's "normal."

[dsc]

58. that is a total crock

women rarely go to jail for this while men often do. It isn't often that women get the better of a sexist double standard but here is one case where they most assuredly do. I will give you your second paragraph though but the first, no way.

[TheWraith]

64. Dead on target.

And even in the cases where the woman involved doesn't plead out to trivium, typically she's treated much better in the press. Remember the woman whose 15-year-old boyfriend helped the police record her conversations with him? Think about how an adult male would have been treated if he'd been caught screwing a 15 year old and talking about maybe her getting pregnant.

Actually, the last paragraph of Lyric's message makes my point: societally men are assumed to ALWAYS want sex, and women are assumed to always NOT want sex. Thus, when a male is the adult, he's a predator, but when a male is the junior, he's "lucky." The truth is, as I've been saying, it's almost never that simple. Feel free to be pissed off at stupid people, so long as you recognize that stupidity is equal opportunity, and that those young men you refer to are as much a case of being conditioned to what's "normal" as the young women are.

[ORDagnabbit]

8. I wish the hell the puritans in this society would die a quick painful death and leave us in peace..

[eShirl]

9. Ah! I thought this was about Samuel Adams, Brewer/Patriot.

Now I'm somewhat disappointed.

[sundog]

10. it's so sad that whenever i see "sam adams" anywhere, i just think beer

beeerrr

[tbyg52]

12. That was my first thought as well.

I guess I don't keep up as well as I should, because I don't even know who this other Sam Adams *is*.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

76. Me too...

I hoped that this was about LGBT history- not fodder for the gristmill.

[readmoreoften]

13. Wait, speculation by a "friend" and a "father" is "evidence mounting"?

I'll go with what the people involved say on this one before the "friends" and paranoid parents weigh in. "The kissing"? Lots of people take trips to Portland. Lots of people's "friends" will say anything with a little money thrown their way.

One does not have to "suspend disbelief" to believe Adams "at this point." Please. When I was in my mid-twenties I had 18 year olds interested in me all the time. I waited to become involved with them until they turned 18 to protect my ass--even though age of consent was 17 in my state--but that doesn't mean I didn't wait until they turned 18 to hang out with them or travel with them.

[bluedawg12]

31. This is called getting out in front of a story.

Because it's really about something else entirely, but, it's being non-confrontational and the real point is being evaded. Just MHO.

[readmoreoften]

60. Yeah, well, rumor and speculation are only 'evidence' in the court of tabloid law.

(where this clearly belongs)

[bluedawg12]

65. Adults should not have sex with minors.

The rest about this particular case is irrelevant as we don't really know the facts. Whatever, the outcome, it still doesn't change the basics: Adults should not have sex with minors.

[foxfeet]

14. Since the credibility of both of them (Adams and Breedlove) is a bit murky,

do we know if Breedlove lied to Adams about his age? Adams may have been stupid to take the risk in any event.

[dsc]

19. not according to Adams own account

Adams says he met Breedlove at age 17 and waited until he was 18.

[readmoreoften]

61. How is their credibility murky? Times like this I wish I lived in Europe.

A father and a teenaged buddy's speculation do not a case make. People have sex with 18 year olds all the time. I don't really care if they knew one another before he technically came of age and I seriously doubt anyone will ever know. They were in an ongoing relationship. It's not like the guy is some pedophile.

This is a non-issue.

[dsc]

63. because they repeatedly lied about the matter

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. What is the age of consent in Oregon? In Washington, the relationship would have been legal

Washington law does not have a set age of consent; rather, it defines certain criminal acts. A relationship between a person 16 or 17 years old and someone who is older is not criminal unless the older person holds a position of authority over the minor, ie is a teacher, doctor, foster parent, etc. By all accounts, Adams never had authority over Breedlove.

Mind you, I am angry at the lies and I think Adams has shown himself unfit for a position of public trust. However, I don't see anything legally improper with the relationship itself, unless Oregon law says otherwise.

[dsc]

18. 18

so he did break Oregon law if it turns out he started at 17.

[lightningandsnow]

21. Honestly, I think having the age of consent at that age is extremely dumb.

I would say have it at 14 with no close-in-age exemption, or 16 with a close-in-age exemption.

When I was 16, I had a 21-year-old partner, and somehow I'm not emotionally scarred by it. And, further more, I really hate it when people insist on naming experiences for others (such as telling someone they were abused when they had a consensual relationship and don't feel that way at all.

[TechBear_Seattle]

24. You might find Washington's laws interesting

The relevant sections are RCW 9A.44, sections 073-096 inclusive.

[TechBear_Seattle]

23. Thank you for the info, that does change matters n/t

[Duncan Grant]

16. Sam Adams should be sentenced to 2 years hard labor.

It was good enough for Oscar Wilde.

[closeupready]

20. Did Adams lie under oath? If not, what prompted this investigation in the first place?

He probably should step down, but I would want to first know the sequence of events here.

[Eryemil]

22. These age of consent laws are ridiculous

Anything above 16yo is excessive.

[bluedawg12]

30. They are

it should be 21 and some sort of driver's test equivalent should be required.

Can you carry on a conversation?
Can you support yourself?
Do you say, "Like," more than three times per minute?

[Eryemil]

34. Careful love, the grey is showing...

And it is not very flattering from where I'm standing.

[bluedawg12]

66. You mean the grey matter is showing. Glad you mentioned this!

Well, 25 would be ideal, but no one will listen. :evilgrin:

However, there are concerns about the issue of the age of consent and it helps me if I look at it on three levels:

physical sexual maturity
intellectual maturity
emotional maturity


It turns out that physical sexual maturity is decreasing for girls, and menarche now comes around the 12th birthday.


Next, research shows us that intellectual maturity continues to progress, mature and develop rapidly until around 16 or 17 years of age.

Finally, emotional maturity and judgement develops the slowest as does the ability to comprehend an act in the full knowledge of consequences, called self control and to avid risky behaviors, that doesn’t mature until mid-twenties.

Them’s the facts Jack.

What society does with those facts, or should do with those facts is another matter.
But clearly, society has an interest in protecting our kids and teens as well and to create guidelines for behavior called laws.

Society is also faced with three sets of problems in this regard:

1.) The biological urge in underage teens, coupled with poor impulse control and poor judgement about consequences, creates a tension between the ideal and the real as studies now have shown that: one of every three American ninth graders has had intercourse. - U.S. government's Youth Risk Behavior Survey.

2.) The legal problem of sex between underage partners.

3.) The legal problem of sex between an underage partner, or just barely legal very young partner and an adult.

The rule of thumb seems to me that two kids equal poor judgement and the consequences should reflect that.

While in an adult to minor situation, or very young but legal adult, the old, 18 years and three minutes of age person and a fully mature adult, the burden of consequences falls on the person who theoretically has the full adult capacity: physically, intellectually and emotionally.

So, while teen to teen sex is not advised, that is a different circumstance than an adult to teen situation. In the latter, at least, the so called adult, is held to a higher standard.

So, what is the underlying principle? Why even worry about teens and early sex?

Here’s my arguments:

a.) Poor judgement leads to lack of protection and possibly teen pregnancy.
b.) Poor judgement leads to lack of protection, lack of restraint and promiscuity and STD’s.
c.) Poor judgement leads to potential poor choices in partners, especially among unequals, and the possibility of being manipulated into sex, or peer pressure, could lead to exploitation.
d.) If sex is something more than mechanical, and it must be, because the same goal can be reached alone, then, there may be emotional ramifications that could lead to emotional scarring or damage.

What ever the reasons, I don’t think I am in the minority on this, I venture, if we polled parents about how they felt about their 14 year old son or daughter engaging in unrestricted sexual activity, they would want some level of “protection” for their child and would want laws that protect their child from adult sexual advances. In another words, society wants these laws and therefore, they exist.

I don’t see the harm in asking teens to wait, they have their entire lives ahead of them to have sex. On the other hand, I don’t see the need to lower the age of consent in laws simply because adults can’t wait for a partner that is a little older and of legal age?

http://www.slate.com/id/2174841
The Mind-Booty Problem
Rethinking the age of sexual consent.
By William Saletan
Posted Thursday, Sept. 27, 2007, at 8:02 AM ET
Read more from Slate's Sex Issue.

Consent implies competence, and 12-year-olds don't really have that. In a forthcoming review of studies, Laurence Steinberg of Temple University observes that at ages 12 to 13, only 11 percent of kids score at an average (50th percentile) adult level on tests of intellectual ability. By ages 14 to 15, the percentage has doubled to 21. By ages 16 to 17, it has doubled again to 42. After that, it levels off.

By that standard, the age of consent should be 16. But competence isn't just cognitive. It's emotional, too. Steinberg reports that on tests of psychosocial maturity, kids are much slower to develop. From ages 10 to 21, only one of every four young people scores at an average adult level. By ages 22 to 25, one in three reaches that level. By ages 26 to 30, it's up to two in three.

Steinberg concludes that "risk-taking increases between childhood and adolescence as a result of changes around the time of puberty in the brain's socio-emotional system." In tests, these tendencies peak from ages 13 to 16. Subsequently, "isk-taking declines between adolescence and adulthood because of changes in the brain's cognitive control system—changes which improve individuals' capacity for self-regulation." The latter kind of competence doesn't reach adult levels until the mid-20s.

.............

Dev Rev. 2008 Mar;28(1)78-106. Links
A Neurobehavioral Perspective on Adolescent Risk-Taking.Steinberg L.
Temple University.

The high rate of risky behavior among adolescents relative to adults, despite massive, ongoing, and costly efforts to educate teenagers about its potentially harmful consequences, has been the focus of much theorizing and empirical research by developmental scientists for at least 25 years, but investigators searching for differences between adolescents and individuals of other ages that would explain the relatively more frequent risky behavior of youth have come up empty handed. This article sketches out a framework for theory and research on risk-taking that is informed by developmental neuroscience. Two fundamental questions motivate this review. First, why does risk-taking increase between childhood and adolescence? Second, why does risk-taking decline between adolescence and adulthood? I argue that risk-taking increases between childhood and adolescence as a result of changes around the time of puberty in the brain's socio-emotional system that lead to increased reward-seeking, especially in the presence of peers, fueled mainly by a dramatic remodeling of the brain's dopaminergic system. Risk-taking declines between adolescence and adulthood because of changes in the brain's cognitive control system - changes which improve individuals' capacity for self-regulation. These changes occur over the course of adolescence and young adulthood and are seen in structural and functional changes within the prefrontal cortex and its connections to other brain regions. The differing timetables of these changes - the increase in reward-seeking, which occurs early and is relatively abrupt, and the increase in self-regulatory competence, which occurs gradually and is not complete until the mid-20s, makes mid-adolescence a time of heightened vulnerability to risky and reckless behavior.

............

[bluedawg12]

67. Even between the ages of 18-24, judgement is not too hot, for ex: drinking.

Look at the awful stats on college kids, 18-24 and the outcomes of drinking alcohol.

I just found these and they are alarming.

http://www.collegedrinkingprevention.gov/StatsSummaries/snapshot.aspx

A Snapshot of Annual High-Risk College Drinking Consequences
The consequences of excessive and underage drinking affect virtually all college campuses, college communities, and college students, whether they choose to drink or not.

Death: 1,700 college students between the ages of 18 and 24 die each year from alcohol-related unintentional injuries, including motor vehicle crashes (Hingson et al., 2005).

Injury: 599,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are unintentionally injured under the influence of alcohol (Hingson et al., 2005).

Assault: More than 696,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are assaulted by another student who has been drinking (Hingson et al., 2005).

Sexual Abuse: More than 97,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are victims of alcohol-related sexual assault or date rape (Hingson et al., 2005).

Unsafe Sex: 400,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 had unprotected sex and more than 100,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 report having been too intoxicated to know if they consented to having sex (Hingson et al., 2002).

Academic Problems: About 25 percent of college students report academic consequences of their drinking including missing class, falling behind, doing poorly on exams or papers, and receiving lower grades overall (Engs et al., 1996; Presley et al., 1996a, 1996b; Wechsler et al., 2002).

Health Problems/Suicide Attempts: More than 150,000 students develop an alcohol-related health problem (Hingson et al., 2002) and between 1.2 and 1.5 percent of students indicate that they tried to commit suicide within the past year due to drinking or drug use (Presley et al., 1998).

Drunk Driving: 2.1 million students between the ages of 18 and 24 drove under the influence of alcohol last year (Hingson et al., 2002).

Vandalism: About 11 percent of college student drinkers report that they have damaged property while under the influence of alcohol (Wechsler et al., 2002).

Property Damage: More than 25 percent of administrators from schools with relatively low drinking levels and over 50 percent from schools with high drinking levels say their campuses have a "moderate" or "major" problem with alcohol-related property damage (Wechsler et al., 1995).

Police Involvement: About 5 percent of 4-year college students are involved with the police or campus security as a result of their drinking (Wechsler et al., 2002) and an estimated 110,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 are arrested for an alcohol-related violation such as public drunkenness or driving under the influence (Hingson et al., 2002).

Alcohol Abuse and Dependence: 31 percent of college students met criteria for a diagnosis of alcohol abuse and 6 percent for a diagnosis of alcohol dependence in the past 12 months, according to questionnaire-based self-reports about their drinking (Knight et al., 2002).

[bluedawg12]

68. (Not specif. for Eryemil ) Gen. info. : Why Sexualizing Teens is a BAD idea.

This is just my opinion, based on CDC data, but, it appears at teens mature sexually, they are also increasingly victimized and the CDC data shows that sexualizing teens does lead to unwanted sex and forced intercourse.

Prevalence of having been forced to have sexual intercourse ranged from 5.1% to 11.2% across state surveys (median: 8.4%) and from 5.0% to 13.1% across local surveys (median: 8.5%)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5505a1.htm#tab44

June 9, 2006 / 55(SS05);1-108

Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance --- United States, 2005

Danice K. Eaton, PhD,1 Laura Kann, PhD,1 Steve Kinchen,1 James Ross, MS,2 Joseph Hawkins, MA,3 William A. Harris, MM,1 Richard Lowry, MD,1 Tim McManus, MS,1 David Chyen, MS,1 Shari Shanklin, MS,1 Connie Lim, MPA,1 Jo Anne Grunbaum, EdD,4 Howell Wechsler, EdD1
1Division of Adolescent and School Health, National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion, CDC
2ORC Macro, Calverton, Maryland
3Westat, Rockville, Maryland
4Division of Adult and Community Health, National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion, CDC

Introduction
In the United States, 71% of all deaths among youth and young adults aged 10--24 years result from four causes: motor-vehicle crashes (31%), other unintentional injuries (14%), homicide (15%), and suicide (11%) (1).

Substantial morbidity and social problems also result from the approximately 831,000 pregnancies among women aged 15--19 years (2),

the estimated 9.1 million cases of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) among persons aged 15--24 years (3),

and the estimated 4,842 cases of HIV/AIDS among persons aged 15--24 years (4) that occur annually.

Among adults aged >25 years, 61% of all deaths in the United States result from cardiovascular diseases (38%) and cancer (23%) (1).

These leading causes of morbidity and mortality among youth and adults in the United States are related to six categories of priority health-risk behaviors: behaviors that contribute to unintentional injuries and violence; tobacco use; alcohol and other drug use; sexual behaviors that contribute to unintended pregnancy and STDs, including HIV infection; unhealthy dietary behaviors; and physical inactivity. These behaviors frequently are interrelated and often are established during childhood and adolescence and extend into adulthood.


During 1991--2005, significant linear decreases occurred in the percentage of students who ever had sexual intercourse (54.1%--46.8%), who had sexual intercourse with >4 people during their lifetime (18.7%--14.3%), and who were currently sexually active (37.5%--33.9%).

During 1991--2005, a significant linear increase occurred in the percentage of sexually active students who used a condom at last sexual intercourse (46.2%--62.8%).

The percentage of students who were taught in school about AIDS or HIV infection increased during 1991--1997 (83.3%--91.5%) and then decreased during 1997--2005 (91.5%--87.9%).

During 2003--2005, no significant changes occurred in any of these sexual behavior variables.

Forced to Have Sexual Intercourse

Nationwide, 7.5% of students had ever been physically forced to have sexual intercourse when they did not want to (Table 10).

Overall, the prevalence of having been forced to have sexual intercourse was higher among female (10.8%) than male (4.2%) students;

higher among white female (10.8%), black female (11.5%), and Hispanic female (9.4%) than white male (3.1%), black male (7.1%), and Hispanic male (6.4%) students, respectively;

and higher among 9th grade female (8.7%), 10th grade female (10.7%), 11th grade female (11.6%), and 12th grade female (12.7%) than 9th grade male (3.5%), 10th grade male (3.8%), 11th grade male (4.2%), and 12th grade male (5.3%) students, respectively.

Overall, the prevalence of having been forced to have sexual intercourse was higher among black (9.3%) than white (6.9%) students and higher among black male (7.1%) and Hispanic male (6.4%) than white male (3.1%) students.

Overall, the prevalence of having been forced to have sexual intercourse was higher among 11th grade (7.9%) and 12th grade (9.0%) than 9th grade (6.1%) students; higher among 12th grade (9.0%) than 10th grade (7.2%) students;

higher among 12th grade female (12.7%) than 9th grade female (8.7%) students;

and higher among 12th grade male (5.3%) than 9th grade male (3.5%) students.

Prevalence of having been forced to have sexual intercourse ranged from 5.1% to 11.2% across state surveys (median: 8.4%) and from 5.0% to 13.1% across local surveys (median: 8.5%) (Table 11).

[Eryemil]

72. ...

All your statistics fall flat when you compare to the US to Europe and Canada, as they usually do. Fairly low age of consent across the board and very sexually permissive societies yet the US has more than double the rate of teenage pregnancy, the same goes for HIV infections and STDs in general.
Same goes for drug abuse, even though the US has some of the most restrictive drug laws around.

When something is forbidden, made mysterious and taboo it is also made all the more interesting. Specially to teenagers who also tend to suffer the brunt of these puritanical ideas. Instead of providing sexual education you teach bullshit like 'abstinence' and make it difficult and shameful for your children to talk about sexuality or procure condoms.


Sex was talked about openly in the streets and among family members where I grew up. My father talked to me about masturbation as soon as was able to grasp the concept, though I didn't really gain much interest in it until later I knew why my penis got hard and what I could do to alleviate that. My mother talked to me about pregnancies and the menstrual cycle. We changed in front of one another and I never once felt that my body was something that was shameful or ugly.

I started what you'd call the usual childhood experimenting when I was well under 10, with a schoolmate from across the street. Not to satisfy any sexual need that I can recall but simply to out of curiosity. I already had an inkling that I was somehow different by then.

Over the years before we moved to the states I started becoming more and more interested in males. What had at first been curiosity turned into actual sexual desire and the childish fumbling started to seem more what you'd call sex. I can't really tell you when I become sexually active per se, when it became 'sex' as opposed to just 'play'.

We went to the US when I was 11. By then I had already been struggling with the knowledge that I was gay, well over the denial stage and firmly planted onto the 'hiding' phase. By the time I was 13 however, I was already publicly 'out of the closet' and started high school on those terms.

I am now 19yo. I've had my share of sexual partners since then. A few around my age, most older, some much older. Sex and nudity are as shocking or special to me shaking hands. I visit naturist beaches often and see sexual intercourse as a means of bonding between friends just as much as a tool to express affection to one's mate.

One does not need maturity to enjoy sex, just adequate knowledge of how to protect oneself and one's partner. The rest develops naturally if not actively discouraged.
What one DOES need maturity for is to form stable relationships. Yet our societies are obsessed with and glorify the concept to the point that for most people their romantic lives consist of nothing but a string of broken relationships and unfulfilled expectations.

[bluedawg12]

73. Good points, but I am talking about social policy and law.

In the US.

Those are the STATS for the US and have little to do with EU and Canada.

Your points are well made. I also realize that you are talking about something of a generational difference
( no more grey hair cracks- you!) I know that young adults today come from a different outlook, for example, "friends with benefits," is a term I have heard.

You are also talking about several issues: acceptance of being gay and being out and not living a lie.

You also mentioned a family that took the time to be open about sexual functions, without shame.

Those are separate issues from what society and parents across the board think about teenage sex.

As it stands now, there are age of consent laws, they seek to protect the majority of young people,not just the more enlightened fortunate ones.

I don't want to see adults who are in a position of authority be given license to engage in sexual activity with under age people.

I don't want to see adults at all, engage in sexual activity with under age people.

If society wants to revisit that I am certainly open to reading the studies and opinions regarding that.

But for now, that's how things are with laws and social values.

I will fight for your rights as a gay man.

I will not fight for the rights of adults to have sex with under age teens.

I will leave the discussion of what teens should do with their sexual drive to the teens and their parents.

Thank you for a thought provoking discussion.

[Eryemil]

74. ...

Firstly, cross-reference is a very good method of gauging the efficacy of a concept. So yes, comparing the US to the other developed countries to understand what works and what doesn't is definitely a valid strategy.

You seem to miscomprehend just what 'age of consent' is. It does not describe the age a minor will be free game to adults. It is merely the age a person can consent to sex in general.
Most countries with low age of consent, like Germany where it is 14, still have laws that protect younger teens from much older people. These are called statutory rape laws. In Germany's case 14yos can have sex with others up to 18yo and those above 21yo can only have sex with those older than 16. In Spain the age of consent is 13 if both parties are under 16.

Your excuse is more or less, moot in terms of 'protecting children'. Not to mention the fact that age of consent does not actually have ANY effect in regard to the age teenagers will actually engage in sex. In fact, in Western countries with lower age of consent teenagers actually wait LONGER to have sex and have less partners in comparison.
Correlation does not equal causation obviously; in this has more to do with good sexual education and prevalent societal attitudes than anything else.


"You are also talking about several issues: acceptance of being gay and being out and not living a lie.
You also mentioned a family that took the time to be open about sexual functions, without shame.
Those are separate issues from what society and parents across the board think about teenage sex."

No, they are not. It was partly through this healthy attitude towards sex that I was able to come to a resolution about my sexuality at such a young age.
How many men, in comparison, go through years of denial simply because they haven't actually been with a man? Sexual orientation exists independent of actual sexual activity of course but you cannot deny that it is much easier to lie to oneself when there's no tangible proof.

[bluedawg12]

75. I advocate following the laws for age of consent in the US, as it may vary by State.

That's my point. If the laws are changed, then, they will be followed.

[Malikshah]

25. What would Abigail say. She won't take kindly to this.

Really--.....

[TheWraith]

40. That's John Adams. :D nt

[bluedawg12]

53. Historian! n/t

[Malikshah]

55. Obviously you haven't read the National Enquirer circa 1776

Ye Olde Sexe Scandal erupteth

Yegods, cries John as he walks in on the beast with two backs in his own home!
Story to follow with woodcut images....

;)

[Lilith Velkor]

69. So that's why he cheated on her with Thomas Jefferson

I had always wondered about that.

[Malikshah]

71. As they say... Knowledge is power :)

:)

[xchrom]

26. bedded?

oy --:eyes:

[bluedawg12]

27. I know.

:eyes:

[xchrom]

28. ripped

bodice!

[bluedawg12]

29. Heaving

breast.

[xchrom]

33. smoldering

eyes

[bluedawg12]

35. Throbbing

lions.

[xchrom]

37. LIONS?!?

-- you're wilder than i thought.

or you're not in kansas.

[KitchenWitch]

38. no no no, it is QUIVERING loins...

geez.

[bluedawg12]

50. It's throbbing LIONS and quivering loins. geez guys,

how many best sellers must I write, that one can read in 7 minutes? :rofl:

[Chovexani]

46. I think I read this story before

...fuck I think I WROTE this story before. :hide:

[bluedawg12]

51. You're wilder than we thought too.

:toast:

That's why we love ya!

No we are not in Kansas anymore.... :rofl:

[Chovexani]

59. There's PEVS in them thar hills!!

:D

[mitchtv]

36. BFD

Sorry can't get shocked. When I was his age , I would have killed for the opportunity to make some noce gay older guy. like Toasty said Young gay men are different from strate

[TheWraith]

41. Actually a lot of straight guys would love to meet a nice older woman.

That doesn't mean it's necessarily healthy... or that it's necessarily unhealthy. It varies way too much on the people involved to allow for generalizations.

[Chovexani]

47. It ain't just men

I lusted after many a cougar at 18

But maybe I'm just a slut. :evilgrin:

[GodlessBiker]

42. You said "mounting." Bwahahahahahaha!

[bluedawg12]

52. Should "bedded" and "mounting" ever be used in the same sentence?

:rofl: :evilgrin:

[sundog]

44. and how unfortunate is the name breedlove?

[Lilith Velkor]

70. And his dog's name, Lolita?