Parents of GLBT -- I need your thoughts

[dawgmom]

I've never posted in this forum, but I hope that some of you may be able to provide some perspective or thoughts that might help my best friend, or really, help me to find the right words to say to her. I apologize if this is sort of long.

She has two daughters, 21 and 18 -- the light of her life, and her greatest joy. She's the best Mom I've ever known. She is very, very supportive of the GLBT community, and has been for over 30 years. Her nephew came out about six years ago, and she has several close lesbian friends. So, when her eldest daughter came out to her and her husband last year, it was handled beautifully. They were fully accepting and supportive, and their daughter B. felt all the love that one should feel from family on such an occasion. I remember saying to my friend at the time, "B. was born into the right family. What a blessing for her."

So....last night I was talking to her on the phone, and she said almost in passing that she'd gotten really teary-eyed at work when someone brought in a baby -- that it had made her blue, made her realize how much she missed having small children around, and how sad she was that that part of her life is over. I said, "Nature has a way of taking care of that. That's why, when these feelings surface, nature brings us grandchildren." She sighed, and sort of laughed and said "Nope. No grandchildren for me. I'm going to have to borrow somebody else's." I responded, hey, you don't know that....nobody needs a man anymore to have kids, and besides, there's still R.(her youngest)even if B decides to stick with her stated intention not to have kids." That's when she told me that last weekend, R (the youngest) had come out over the phone to her and her husband. Again, she was saying all the right things to me, sounding positive and upbeat -- but I know her better than just about any person on the planet, and I KNOW she is having feelings about this -- feelings of sadness -- that she doesn't want to say aloud. She is the first person in the world who would tell you that the most important thing in the world to her is that her daughters are happy, and that her only wish is that they lead happy and productive lives. I know that's what she has expressed to them. She would never say that she is sad that her daughters are lesbians. And yet, I know that a part of her is, because being a mother has been the greatest joy in her life, and any other issues aside, it makes her sad to think that her girls will miss out on that joy.

I love her so much. How do I help her, and what should I say? Please, I need your gentle responses.

[luvspeas]

1. She might want to consider going to a PFLAG meeting...

Or at least giving them a call and talking to someone. I worked with GLBT teens for 5 years, and believe me, this is a very very common feeling. Even among people who are generally open-minded and accepting. The PFLAG people will listen and understand and not judge.

There are some good books too, I'll see if I can look a couple up for you.

She shouldn't feel guilty about how she feels, but she needs to stop thinking about herself. There's no guarantee that anyone is going to have children. Would she be feeling this way if she found out her daughters were infertile? Maybe this is nature's way of telling her to quit expecting her children to fulfill her goofy fantasies.

[dawgmom]

9. I think the PFLAG thing is a good idea

I think that's an excellent idea, and one that she'd be receptive to. She's also a reader, and so I would welcome any reading suggestions you might have.

BTW, I don't think she has "goofy fantasies" about her children. I think that all parents dream about what their children's lives will be like, and we hope they will be happy. It's only human nature sometimes for people to define happiness in terms they can relate to personally.

[luvspeas]

13. I meant goofy in the sense that it's not entirely conscious or rational

eventually she'll probably figure that out too.


Ohyeah-I should say that most of the parents I've known get over it, if they are decent people to begin with.

[dawgmom]

15. Thanks for clarifying

She'll figure it out -- and she's the most decent person I know. I want to be her when I grow up.

[begin_within]

2. Lesbians can be mothers

[dawgmom]

4. Of course...it's not about CAN ... it's about whether they WILL

She knows that, of course. Her close lesbian friend in her own city has four children. And as I said in my post, I expressed that to her -- nobody needs a man to have children these days. I'm just saying that because the eldest daughter has adamently stated that she won't be having children (the exact quote was "Ugh. I don't even want a man I know to put his sperm in me -- why do you think I'd want to have a stranger's implanted in me?")my friend is inevitably thinking that the younger daughter may take the same stance.

I think the suggestion above about her going to a PFLAG meeting is a good one. She needs a place where she can express any kind of feeling she may be having about this, without worrying about being judged.

Thanks for responding to my post, however.

[begin_within]

11. Even if they were heterosexual, they still might, or might not have children

I think the parents are grieving for the daughter they thought they had, and the granchildren they thought they were going to have. The daughter that adamantly stated she won't be having children probably would not have children even if she were heterosexual. She just doesn't like children, period. So the parents would be dealing with the same issue regardless of the daughter being lesbian or straight. They can't force either daughter to have children, by any method, even by adoption, regardless of their daughters' orientation. If the parents really want to have grandchildren, they could adopt or sponsor children on their own. It wouldn't be the same as blood relatives, but it seems like they are just going to have to accept things for how they are. I think it's probably harder for mothers, since they seem to want to be grandmothers and enjoy that phase of their life with grandkids. And having a son or daughter be gay makes it less likely that they will get to enjoy that, though it still doesn't rule it out.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

24. Well, I have zero desire to have children, but that has nothing to do with being gay

I just know I'm too selfish and germophobic to have children.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

27. the same is true for heterosexuals and what people want at 20 is different what they want at 30

[roguevalley]

3. tell her that her kids love her. that they love her so much that they

could trust her with the hardest deepest secret they held. Tomorrow can't be known. Children will come to her, grandchildren I am sure. People change their minds. Tell her there are an ocean of children waiting for someone kind and good and she should cast her net.

Tell her she has admirers she will never know because she is a good person. Tell her the mourning will end and the sun will come out. Tell her it will be all right eventually. She is a good woman and good will come to her.

RV

[dawgmom]

5. Thank you so much

That was beautiful, and it made me cry. I may cut and paste that verbatim into an email.

(And one of the things that I DID say to her when we spoke was exactly what you said -- people change their minds. I've only changed my mind about a thousand times since I was 21 about major life decisions.)

Thanks for your response. I truly appreciate it.

[roguevalley]

7. you are welcome. right now, she is reeling from the blow of this

but she will rise up and be okay. there are blessings to be found everywhere is you look. My best to you and to her.

[Kerrytravelers]

6. I think it's fair to remind her of her children's age- 18 and 21. Decisions about whether or not to

have children change. She has plenty of time.

[dawgmom]

10. Yes, that is one of the things I did say to her

Thanks for your response.

[damntexdem]

8. Well, her daughter could decide to have or adopt a child.

But a parent cannot assume that their child will produce a baby, no matter what the orientation of the child.

[NMMNG]

12. A few things

1. Despite what the RRRW bigots claim, gay people are not sterile. We can reproduce, though we need to use alternative means (IVF, surrogates, sperm donors) to do it. Alternatively we can adopt where we're not banned by hateful laws from doing so. Just because both of her children are gay doesn't necessarily mean she's not going to have grandchildren. The real bonus is that when gay people have children it's always by choice, never by accident.

2. Having straight children is no guarantee that one will have grandchildren. While straight people tend to have children eventually it's not a given.

3. While this may sound a bit cruel (so feel free to not pass it on), it's not about her. I realize it would be very fulfilling to her to have grandchildren but it's her children who'd have all of the associated issues (costs, responsibilities, etc.) to deal with. Whether adult children are straight or gay they should never feel compelled to have kids just to make their parents into grandparents.

[dawgmom]

14. ..

I don't know what "RRRW" stands for, but my friend certainly does not fall into any category of people who think gay people cannot have children, or even the category of a parent who would pressure or nag her children to have grandchildren -- whether they be straight or gay. Her close lesbian friend in her town has four children. It's not about "can" in this case....it's about whether they will, and it's about her looking at her life and in one moment, one instant, realizing "Hey, it's possible I'll never be a grandmother" -- and then adjusting to that. Of course, as you said, if they were straight it wouldn't be a given -- but when your straight child doesn't have kids, you have 20 years or more to adjust to that idea, when you gradually realize they aren't going to have kids. This has landed on her - splat - in one moment. And of course, I've said to her that young people change their minds, etc. I guess what my post was really about was how do I help her to deal with whatever fear or loss she might be feeling. Feelings are feelings, whether they have validity or not. Feelings aren't always logical, or rational.

Thanks for responding.

[NMMNG]

17. RRRW = Radical Religious Right Wing

They're just the bigoted jerks who like to claim we don't deserve rights like marriage equality because we allegedly "can't" procreate. As if using non-traditional (i.e. penis in vagina) means to have children means we're incapable of doing it. And I wasn't suggesting she was one of them by any means. The very fact that she accepts her children for who they are proves that she isn't. :hi:

[dawgmom]

19. Gotcha. Thanks.

Thanks for the RRRW explanation. :)
Yes...my friend is a wonderful person, and I'm very lucky to have had her in my life for more than 30 years now. And her daughters? They are lucky to have been born into the family they have born into. I wish that all GLBT people were so fortunate.

[Toasterlad]

16. I Don't Think She Needs Help. She Just Needs to Adjust to the Idea That She'll Never Be a Grandmom.

If I were straight, I'd still have no intention of having children. I know lots of straight people who feel the same way. If you want to help this woman, help her to understand that the "problem" isn't that her daughters are gay, it's that they don't want children...and that they'd be just as likely to feel that way if they were straight.

I think it's wonderful that your friend is so accepting of her daughters, and I think it's perfectly acceptable for her to be sad at the prospect of not being a grandmom. I just think "gay" should be taken out of the equation. What she's feeling is natural, and she'd be feeling the same way if her daughters had married men and decided not to have children.

Also, as others have pointed out, it's not unreasonable to assume that the women might one day change their minds. However, it would probably be for the best if your friend didn't put too much faith in that.

[dawgmom]

18. Thank you -- this was really helpful

I appreciate your thoughtful response, and your perspective. I think you make a very valuable point. Thanks for responding.

[readmoreoften]

20. She could just as easily have two straight daughters who don't want kids.

Sexual orientation really doesn't have anything to do with wanting kids. I have more straight friends in their late 20s early 30s who don't want kids than who do.

[Jamastiene]

21. The best point I can make (and you can tell her too)

is that there are childless straight women, who wouldn't be giving her any grandchildren anyhow. And there are lesbians who want, and sometimes have, children...which would give her grandchildren.

That is just the plain, simple truth.

In any case, it's a wait and see. She may yet be a grandmother someday.

[SacredCow]

22. I think she's kind of counting her lack of grandchildren prematurely....

Either child can still reproduce, and may decide to do so.

Though she has accepted her children for who they are, she still needs some time to fully process the information, and what it really means. A PFLAG meeting definitely might be of some benefit to her- perhaps she will meet some parents who ARE also grandparents?

:hi:

[Not Me]

29. My partner's mom had the same reaction

and was beginning to come to terms with not having a grandchild.
Then he began being a dad to my sons. She loves it.

[Ms. Toad]

23. What your friend is going through is perfectly normal

When I came out to my parents, they had to revisit some of their dreams and visions for me, because part of their vision included that I was straight, and their dreams included grandchildren. At the time, they grieved what they expected to be a loss of grandchildren - as well as the challenges they expected I would face as a lesbian, and a whole host of other things. No one dreams their children will face a lifetime of hardship and discrimination. Nine years later, my partner and I celebrated the birth of our daughter, living out a piece of the dreams they have had for me since I was a child. Some of their other altered dreams and visions were accurate - some weren't. My spouse lost her job twice because of our relationship, and she is still unable to adopt our daughter. Others have not - we are both out, and well accepted in our neighborhood, at work, and as parents in our daughter's school. What they were grieving was not the reality of no grandchildren, or the reality of a life of discrimination and hardship - but that their dreams were suddenly challenged.

I'm going though a similar process now with my own daughter. We're in the process of teasing out whether she has an illness that will dramatically shorten her life. My dreams for her have always included grandchildren and sharing my waning years with her. All of a sudden I am catching glimpses of the end of my life without her; glimpses of holding her hand as she leaves before me. Those glimpses make me grieve. My grief, at this point, has nothing to do with reality - We are still in the early stages of diagnosis. My grief has to do with how vulnerable my dreams suddenly seem - regardless of whether the threat to those dreams is ultimately realized or not.

So - let her feel what she's feeling, and let her talk to you about it without shame. It doesn't make any difference whether the loss of her dream of grandchildren will ultimately be realized or not - she is feeling the vulnerability of that dream, and needs to grieve that it feels less solid now.

[luvspeas]

25. I hope your daughter will be OK.

I'm so sorry that you are having to think about such things. I really hope your fears turn out to be unnecessary.

[Ms. Toad]

26. Thank you.

It's a real bummer. And it is harder both medically and emotionally because she is 50 miles away without a car (and her insurance only covers labwork at a facility 20 miles from her) - and freshman year at college is stressful enough without adding a serious illness.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. lesbians are just as likely to be mothers. most lesbians i know want to be mothers

i think being sorrowful about it now is a bit presumptious.

[Amimnoch]

30. She sounds much like my own mother, it is hard even for someone who is fully accepting.

Being the oldest of 2 gay sons, I sympathize with your friend fully.

My mother was a flower power child of the 60's. When I came out to her in 1992, she never batted an eye about it. She has always been loving, caring, and nurturing. Her only sadness about it was that she soooo wanted grandchildren, and still does. When my younger brother came out to her several years ago, the prospect of never having any grandchildren weighed on her, and I know it still does.

Your friend is somewhat fortunate in that her's is lesbian, and not gay males when it comes to the grandchildren prospect. I must admit some envy at the additional options that my lesbian sisters (community wise, I have no biological sisters) have available to them when it comes to the possibilities of having children.

I have to admit, I've thought about the possibilities open to myself often when it comes to having at least 1 child. It is the only regret about my sexual orientation that I lament. I've often thought about the joys that come with bringing a child into the world that I am missing. About how I have so much to offer. A good solid financial foundation, a really nice, and large home, a wonderful partner of 13 years who would also make a great father. I've often daydreamed of seeing our child with us in the pool, learning to swim, taking her/his first steps, first words, going camping, or fishing, reading bedtime stories, hearing about her/his first kiss, graduation, etc......