I think people are outrageous liars about equal marriage.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

The religious bigots have been trying to convince everyone that their ONLY objection is the word Marriage. Marriage implies religion and they should have a right to practice their homophobic religion. Marriage has religious roots, and they dont want tolerance to mix with those roots etc.

However, this is just pure horseshit.

They do not want to give us rights. Rights legitimize us and they want us to stay illegitimate. They want us to suffer from internalized homophobia, depression, anxiety and hosts of other issues that people who grow up as outsiders and are reviled suffer. They do not want us to have any chance of happiness and any legitimacy.

This is not about marriage vs civil unions.

This is about legitimizing us in ANY form.

Therefore I do not think we should bother believing these liars and settling for civil unions. It will be as hard to pass those as to pass marriage. Do not believe these liars. Do not think civil unions will pass. They will be just as hard and these fuckers will fight us just as hard on civil unions.


For proof I cite these articles:


NM partner bill dies in Senate: http://www.365gay.com/news/nm-partner-bill-dies-in-senate/

Idaho LGBT rights bill dies in committee: http://www.365gay.com/news/idaho-lgbt-rights-bill-dies-in-committee/

All 5 LGBT bills die in Utah: http://www.365gay.com/news/all-5-lgbt-bills-die-in-utah/

Hawaii Protests Gay Civil Unions: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/267897

And a quote from RNC Chairman Michael Steele when asked " Do you favor civil unions?”

GOP Chairman Michael Steele No, no no. What would we do that for? What are you, crazy? No.Why would we backslide on a core, founding value of this country? I mean this isn’t something that you just kind of like, “Oh well, today I feel, you know, loosey-goosey on marriage.”

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/

[patrice]

1. The lie is that "holy" marriage has ever meant as much as they claim it does.

[bluedawg12]

5. Their use of "holy" is just an adjective to go before their bigotry.

They wrap themselves in the flag, the Bible and bacon.

[TWiley]

44. Repeat after me ....Bigotry and Greed with a Halo

Religion takes the absolute worst elements of human nature and simply tacks a halo above it. At least, that is the way I feel about it.

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. What makes the claim that marriage is a religious institution so bogus is...

In every state, judges are allowed to officiate at marriages. In Maine, North Carolina and Florida, signing a marriage certificate is simply a jurat that can be taken by any notary public. No state requires religious ceremony for a marriage.

[SPedigrees]

10. AFAIK Justices of the peace can officiate in all states

and notary publics in all states issue the license, I believe.

Also sea captains can perform marriage ceremonies.

We got married by a JP in Boston 40 yrs ago, as my parents also did 20 yrs before that. Not a word about religion in the ceremonies. (We are all atheists.) Marriage has zip to do with religion.

[TechBear_Seattle]

12. Maine, North Carolina and Florida notaries public can OFFICIATE at weddings

No judge or clergy required. The act of signing the marriage license -- which is the legal act that creates the marriage -- is nothing more than a jurat, which is where a person makes an oath or affirmation in the presense of a notary and then signs to that oath.

Not exactly what I would call a religious institution.

[Pacifist Patriot]

55. Here's how it works.

Each state's marriage statutes outline which governmental authority issues licenses and who is permitted to sign the certificate of marriage certifying that the parties listed on the license "were joined by me in marriage in accordance with the laws of the state." Or similar verbage.

Usually the judiciary are responsible for issuing and filing marriage records. i.e. county judges and clerks of the circuit court

Here is Florida's code for who can officiate. Notice it doesn't mention ship captains. That's a romantic notion and the ship captains who perform weddings off the coast of Florida are all either notaries public or have some kind of ordination. They are not officiating in the role of ship's captain.

(1) All regularly ordained ministers of the gospel or elders in communion with some church, or other ordained clergy, and all judicial officers, including retired judicial officers, clerks of the circuit courts, and notaries public of this state may solemnize the rights of matrimonial contract, under the regulations prescribed by law. Nothing in this section shall make invalid a marriage which was solemnized by any member of the clergy, or as otherwise provided by law prior to July 1, 1978.

(2) Any marriage which may be had and solemnized among the people called "Quakers," or "Friends," in the manner and form used or practiced in their societies, according to their rites and ceremonies, shall be good and valid in law; and wherever the words "minister" and "elder" are used in this chapter, they shall be held to include all of the persons connected with the Society of Friends, or Quakers, who perform or have charge of the marriage ceremony according to their rites and ceremonies.

Three states permit notaries public to officiate weddings, but otherwise I believe most states are similar to Florida's list. I'm a minister and it galls me that clergy are listed first. And don't even get me started on the "of the gospel" drivel.

[Hermit Extrovert]

59. In Alaska, even private citizens have the right to marry someone once.

It's a law held over from pioneer days. I have a friend who was married by her mother.

Sarah Palin should know all about it!

[friedgreentomatoes]

52. If they were truthful..

..there would be a war against divorce. Far from de-legalizing it, no one even mentions de-legalizing it.

Hypocritters :mad:

[SacredCow]

2. Sadly, I think you're dead-on correct.....

Though I'm perfectly OK with the concept of civil unions, it's pretty much a given that when you fight for less than you deserve, you always get less than you deserve.

K&R

[bluedawg12]

3. They will attack any demand for equality- we might as well go for it, then

there is no compromise with these bastages, we'll work for full equality and they can keep narrowing their base to a smaller and smaller nutty core.

[sui generis]

4. u go grrrl! totally behind you on this.

Behind us.

If it's all about the name then why is it so important to have two names for the same thing?

What value system is driving that nuance?

What I want in my life is non-interference from the rest of the world. I'm an adult with adult responsibilities, and I pay my taxes, take care of my environment, love my friends, and avoid doing harm to others and myself, and by god no uptight hard haired southern babtist piss-poor-protoplasm I've never met should have any more say in my life than I have say in theirs.

[patrice]

31. Well said!!

:applause:

[xchrom]

7. recommend

:applause:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. thank you

[msongs]

8. deceit is a core value of a group basing its morals on a fabricated myth and fairy tale nt

[closeupready]

11. Completely agree.

I have long argued that civil unions are unacceptable. Turns out, they tried it in New Jersey, and it didn't come close to delivering even a resemblance of equality. ("Big duh - I knew that was going to happen", I thought.)

When they try to push us into civil unions, they are ultimately saying, "accept the discrimination against you, drink the koolaid." No fucking way! NO! And if you later have to face the fact that you are a hateful homophobic turd, that will be your problem.

On a side note, this underscores for me that I think it's important for gay people to come out to friends and family, when they feel ready. When you suddenly realize your hatred is actually for one of your own sons or brothers, somehow, you find a way not to hate anymore - or else you 'shun' them.

[JohnnyLib2]

13. Sadly, I think you are absolutely right.

The link below goes to yet another example, currently in the Kentucky Senate. No matter what the wording, the message is,
"lesser than."

www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009902260388

[Froward69]

14. Frankly Marriage is not equal

As a divorced person who was taken first to jail whilst she cleaned out the bank accounts. then to the cleaners in court so she could snort up every last penny. then after years to recover...

I seriously question the sanity of anyone wanting to get married.

granted some marriages last a lifetime and the respective spouses are granted rights in the inevitably of death or serious injury or sickness. these rights could be obtained with a simple will.

Knowing what I know now about marriage... getting in line to loose half of your stuff. after years of compromise and hell. (Loosing the best years of my life BTW)

call it commitment or trust issues if want. but Marriage began as a means of securing wealth. it has since evolved into a means to control one another. basically nothing more

I am actually on the other side of marriage altogether. marriage itself (regardless of gender mix)

should be outlawed.

[closeupready]

16. Because the government showers married people with all kinds of rights

and benefits that do improve each individual's quality of life, and also, the quality of life for any children. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but it certainly does for many others.

[SacredCow]

18. I agree with you, in spirit.....

My divorce was all of that, PLUS an attempted vicious outing all rolled into one.

So No- I'll NEVER get married again, even when it becomes possible to marry my current same-sex significant other. But I stand in solidarity for the benefit of my GLBT family. They deserve the right to choose whether they want to get married or not.

As for dealing with various issues via a will... The simple fact is that wills are contested every day. You just can't assume that the will of a gay man (who wills everything to his partner of many years) will count for anything if the deceased happens to have blood relatives around. Perhaps even blood relatives who hadn't condescended to SPEAK to their gay relative for years, but want to benefit financially from his passing. In the gay-unfriendly country in which we live, more often than not, you can bank that a judge will decree that the will is irrelevant, and the blood relatives will prevail.

[Froward69]

48. OK granted

Here in Colorado a Will is an absolute document... The State supreme court threw out a case where the parents of a Gay man were contesting his will. In where he Willed everything to his partner. The State SC ruled a Will is an absolute document not subject to contest. The US supreme court refused the case. so the president stands... If a will (herein Colorado) is written with an attorney witness. That will stands... to the letter. even if that person is not dead yet but merely incapacitated.

This is how I kept the barbarians at the gate when my Father was Dying of prostate cancer. he was amazed as to "you fought city hall and won." he was 83 and had never seen anyone win like I did. he then urged me to become a lawyer. He Died that next year.

[SacredCow]

49. It should be that way everywhere....

A notarized will and/or power of attorney should be absolutely uncontestable. Alas, it is not.

[TheWraith]

15. That's a GOOD thing. It means they can see the tide of public opinion is shifting.

And they need to couch their opposition in softer terms.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. could you clarify that? i dont understand your comment

[TheWraith]

24. The public is becoming more sympathetic to gay rights and less tolerant

Of the wildly lunatic, homophobic sorts of tirades the fundies have gone on in the past. Look at the recent reaction to the comment by that Colorado state senator. In previous years a lot of other fundie-right Republicans have said things much worse without getting as much national attention, but the public mood is souring on the loud obnoxious homophobia.

The fundies are smelling that in the air, and trying to make their rhetoric more subtle, to avoid angering people who they think they might still be able to sway.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. but they are not. they have not moved the conversation from marriage to civil unions. nt

[bluedawg12]

37. If we are still thinking along the lines of "personal attitudes" of people

then, we I think we have some work to do in terms of not framing the conversation in terms of public attitudes, but rather, justice and civil rights.

Laws should be applied equally to people, regardless of whether other people like them or not, or "approve" of them.

[Maven]

20. HAHAHAHA

You're a riot.

[mitchtv]

21. I don't know if wailing about an almost mainstream POV

is good. I guess you can consider them outing themselves as asshole liars is a good thing , but it is not new or softer

[Two Americas]

30. sure

They shift tactics - "couching their opposition in softer terms" - in order to advance and promote their opposition. How could that be a good thing?

They may or may not see that "the tide of public opinion is shifting" but they will fight to the death in any case. That is not a "good thing" - that is relentless and deceptive opposition. That type of opposition is always harder to fight than more overt and obvious bigotry.

[Maven]

19. Yup. And many on the left (some well-meaning, others not so much) help propagate this lie

It is not the word, it isn't semantics, it's a wholesale campaign to deny us ANY rights or social legitimacy at all.

Full equality now.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

22. Maybe there homosexuality needs to be a religion for us to have rights

Then we could cry, "religious persecution." the way the bigots do.

[mitchtv]

23. there used to be a Church of St. Priapus

in SF HA!

[NMMNG]

33. I've said that before in jest

Though really the religions that have no problem with being gay and/or with same-sex marriage need to pipe up and start screaming for their religious freedoms. It would do a lot of good for someone besides the bigots to be heard so people would realize that Freedom of Religion goes all ways.

[SidneyCarton]

26. Self-Delete.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. ?

[SidneyCarton]

28. Wrong place. n/t

[DarkTirade]

29. The truth is that they will use any excuse they can to use someone as a scapegoat

and a punching bag.

[patrice]

32. Any excuse! Rather than do something about the one thing they CAN do anything about, themselves.

But, I guess they'd have to recognize that they need to change in order to try to grow and with many people ALL of the problems are ALWAYS someone else.

I was raised Christian and I do love Jesus, but I'm telling you, the Money Changers ARE in the temple and "Christianity" is ALL f-ed up!!

[DarkTirade]

34. Well they don't need to do anything about themselves...

because Jesus forgave them so they're fine. Everybody else is still goin' to hell though. Jesus doesn't forgive the people they don't like.

[bluedawg12]

35. The rw is in disarray and I bet they are even more desperate and dangerous

in small zealot groups, although, on reconsideration, that's hard to imagine.

[patrice]

39. I don't have to imagine it.

I live in a red state and we are, at this very minute,

FIGHTING

in various ways, not just for money, but for other types of resources.

[patrice]

38. Yep. Which is, of course, BLASPHEMY.

The nuns, God bless their poor hearts, used to tell us, when we asked what the most dangerous sin is, the one that will most probably damn you to hell if you are guilty of it, because, whatever that sin is it the one sin that would hurt the most people and thus make perdition more likely . . . You'd think the most dangerous sin would be Suicide, but the nuns said, not Suicide, but Blasphemy, i.e. violation of the First Commandment, by assuming the role and purposes of God. i think things like 9/11 and the Invasion & Occupation of Iraq are symptoms of Blasphemy, Blasphemy that also infects Environmental policy and Social & Economic "Justice" and, thus, makes it geometrically more difficult for present and future generations of persons to come, here and in the rest of the World, makes it incredibly more difficult for each and every one to work out his/her own progress/growth toward the Truth.

And, if you think about it, Blasphemy would also be the sin that created Lucifer, and the other Fallen Angels.

[bluedawg12]

40. Hubris. The sin of hubris.

The idea that someone can think they are G-d. For example, Lucifer.

Ahhh, the nuns bless their dutiful hearts.

One would think that the least vulnerable to man's hubris would be the Original Originator.

Like I care if an ant thinks it knows more than me? Silly, isn't it?

At the same time it's revealing this doctrinaire focus on us offending HIM. It keeps the masses in line.

Hubris is daring to take a bite from that apple in Eden.

The greatest sin, IMHO, should have been taught with an anthropocentric view: murder.


However, I am not much into sins and that whole concept.

[patrice]

42. I don't think of them as sins anymore, but more like mistakes in an organic path

that establishes a relationship of somesort.

I think of "the soul" as part of a very open-ended, dynamic, organic environment. We experience the open-ended quality of truth, in a fundamental way, as Freedom and things that intefere with an individual's pattern-making, or identifying relationships, obfuscate his/her path and, thus, cause your system to pitch further errors. We CAN share, but No one can learn for you; it's YOUR pattern, the relationships are YOURS.

And then there's that mirror-like quality to all of it that you allude to in your observation regarding an Original Originator, who is insulted by hubris/Blasphemy.

I should keep that image of ants in mind too as I (and others) go forward with our work. I'm a skeptic, at heart, not really sure that the path leads any"where", so sometimes those ants feel like monsters.

Thanks for chatting with me, bluedawg12. It's a pleasure knowing you.

:hi:

[bluedawg12]

46. I agree we are all on our own paths

yet, some fear the very freedom of discovering their path and cling to very authoritarian systems, thus, absolving themselves of the burden of any decision making.

It's all done for them, everything is concrete, "fundamental," strict interpretation of certain tomes, no matter how much cognitive dissonance they have to endure, in order to swallow the obvious contradictions.

They fear others who are not part of their group, they fear people who think for themselves, they can't seem to accept that there is any other truth outside of their predefined narrow, cook-book system.

That seems to be the reason why they always mention atheists in a negative, fearful way, for them it's not possible that another might live a good and moral life, outside of their own regimented system.

I am sort of skeptically-spiritual. LOL. Meaning that there seems to be great beauty in the awful power of the cycle of life and death and nature itself is beautiful and fearful, but if there is any meaning to it at all, it seems I will have to figure it out for myself.

I feel nothing, well, maybe dread, when I walk into a house of worship built by man, whereas, gulls on the wing or a spectacular sunset can move me to tears. Which of course the good Sisters would find as heresy. :evilgrin:

It is great chatting with you too, Patrice. We have had some lovely discussions and some funny ones too, I still smile at the time we had a round robin of picture posts and you posted the Cheshire Cat from Alice. LOL.

It is great knowing you as well. :)

Hope your Caturday is going well.

:hi:

[bluedawg12]

36. K&R!

[bluedawg12]

41. If all Democrats actually united along "Progressive" principles

and shed the tyranny of the pulpit, these cultural wars would soon be over.

We have our own Quislings, in our ranks, and they always seem to be there to tip the scale in league with the conservatives, when these laws for equality fail.

Maybe we need to look inward and get our party in order. They should lead and not follow?

[TWiley]

43. The Lie is that the religious people have a valid point.

Most of what religion brings to the world is not even worth consideration.

Mathematics is a theory, Science is a theory, neither can be trusted, but life after death spent in eternal subservience to a pissed off white guy is a fact?

[Fearless]

45. Hit the nail on the head.

That's exactly what they're doing. It's a political tactic that makes what they're doing seem more reasonable in an attempt to have greater success by attracting more followers. The only defense against it is to flesh out the truth, to bring to light the hard right intentions that they have to alienate them from their centralist followers.

[bluedawg12]

47. I gather the rw is in the midst of a struggle for it's own identity

I wonder if all of the moderates already left and what's left now is rabbidy right?

That's why it struck me, that if all of the progressive leaning people could just get past the commonly used attacks against gays, the phobic part, and just understand that it is about justice and civil rights, we would not have to worry for one second about the radical right fringe, gay rights laws would be passing all over the place.

[Fearless]

50. Yeah. We're getting there, for sure...

As people like Rush Limbaugh continue to alienate themselves, we continue to win more and more. The more we win, the more radical they become. We'll have this won in our lifetimes, I'm more certain of this than ever. (*Knocks on wood*)

[friedgreentomatoes]

51. That is the exact reason why we should not settle for anything less. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

53. kick

getting tired of being asked if marriage is the only answer.

[SacredCow]

54. Kick...

Sadly enough, I bought into it for a while there. Civil unions may come first, and it'll be a step in the right direction, but ONLY a step. And the fundies (and sadly, some supposedly progressive dems) will fight us every step of the way.

[Chovexani]

56. Completely correct.

Trust me, I know these fuckers well.

There's a reason just about every state DOMA also has a clause against "anything that resembles marriage" ie civil unions and domestic partnerships. It's not about the word marriage to fundies, it's about their absolute terror of the state legitimizing what they feel are "deviant lifestyles" in any sort of way. Which, incidentally, is always why they emphasize "ONE man ONE woman" (these bastards are savvier than people often give them credit for).

What it all comes down to is bigotry and utterly superstitious bullshit. A lot of people are unaware of the pervasive belief among fundies, fundie evangelicals in particular, that American exceptionalism is due to God having his hand of protection on the nation (apparently their god is a level 80 Protection Paladin in World of Warcraft). And that every society that "legitimized" homosexuality fell horribly--their favorite example is the Roman Empire, which shows just how averse to book learnin' they are. They seriously believe that if LGBT are given equal rights and treated like human beings, God will withdraw his protection on America and we will all be destroyed. When fundies talk bullshit like gays caused 9/11, gays caused Hurricane Katrina, THAT belief is what they are referencing.

And this is why we cannot reason with them, or change their minds. This is the bugfuck crazy shit we are dealing with. Yes, there is a certain class of conservative religious type whose mind can be changed, but that particular superstition runs deep among Talibornagains and there really is nothing we can do to alleviate it aside from handing out mass dosages of red pills.

[Deep13]

57. "...core, founding value of this country?"

Hating gay people is a core, founding value of the USA? How come none of the founders to my knowledge ever wrote about it? If marriage is a founding "value" then why stand in its way?

If civil unions were the answer, then we would have civil unions for interracial couples and nonchristians and that would be okay.

[Starry Messenger]

58. Totally agree.

The ProtectMarriage (and/or their franchises) assholes are gearing up their machine to take down civil unions in Washington State next. They are such outrageous liars and so destructive I don't understand why anyone in their right mind would ever consider reaching out to these cynical scammers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum_71_(2009)