Do intersex people have a place in the GLBT community?

[Senior citizen]

If not, why not, and if so, shouldn't it be GLBTI?

[maddiejoan]

1. Interesting question

As an intersexed woman who happens to be dyke identified, I'd say that the answer is a very complicated no. Complicated because Intersexed people aren't always queer identified. Having said that, I'd say that my own opinion is that since there are as many genders as people on this planet (I see gender as a spectrum rather than as a polarity), the notion of hetero versus homosexuality doesn't exactly fit my world view. So, for example, even though I ID as a lesbian it's not really that simple. I suppose I do it out of convenience for the lifestyle I prefer, but I have many intersexed friends who ID as everything from straight male or female to asexual. There are some commonalities I find within the transgender community in that I have in fact transited genders, and some that I find with the lesbian and bisexual communities, but intersexuality is not specifically a gender, nor is it a lifestyle. Like any phenotype, intersexed people can fit into any number of categories, be it L, G, B, T or even S.

1 in 2,000 individuals are some form of intersex. A great place for information on both intersexuality and the horrors the medical community practices on intersexed individuals is:

isna.orrg

[Senior citizen]

2. Interesting response.

Seeing that there are bisexual and transgender people who aren't queer identified, but they're right there in GLBT. There are bisexual people who identify as straight but "also" have same-sex relationships, and there are transgender people who identify as straight in their new gender.

So the GLBT community is limited to people who base their identities on gender roles or lifestyles?

While it may be convenient for you to sacrifice the truth you feel about gender as a spectrum rather than a polarity, in favor of being part of a community, I doubt if it would be convenient for everyone.

In fact, wouldn't adding the I to GLBT be the beginning of acceptance of the truth that gender is a spectrum rather than a polarity, and that everyone should have a right to love whoever it may be that they love?

[maddiejoan]

3. well that's not actually true

Some transgendered men and women live "stealth" and have no interest in queer culture, although most transgendered people do ID as queer. I'd argue that the the "T" in LGBT is for those transgendered who ID as transgendered, there are those that simply wish to live as men or women.

Add to that the fact that most TG people are visable to a level that most intersexed people are not. To put in plain terms, if 1 in 10,000 people are albinos and 1 in 2,000 are intersexed, we can surmise that everyone has seen an albino, and knows it. Not everybody knows they've seen an intersexed person.

I'd argue that the majority of Bisexuals do ID as queer, so am not sure where you are going with that.

My point is not that intersexed people shouldn't be a part of queer culture, to the contrary. If an intersexed person IDs as queer then they definately should!
I just don't see any more validity to adding an "I" to GLBT than I do adding an "M" or a "W".

By adding "I" to GLBT, you are placing limits on an intersexed person that a non-intersexed person doesn't carry. Far from increasing acceptance in gender as a spectrum, you are creating a third wheel and confining people to three genders instead of two. Hardly better in my view.

[jaysunb]

4. What's "intersex? "

I'm hearing this for the first time in over 60 years.....

[maddiejoan]

5. Here ya go

http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex

from Isna.org

What is intersex?





“Intersex” is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, or lacking a vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. Or a person may be born with mosaic genetics, so that some of her cells have XX chromosomes and some of them have XY.


Though we speak of intersex as an inborn condition, intersex anatomy doesn’t always show up at birth. Sometimes a person isn’t found to have intersex anatomy until she or he reaches the age of puberty, or finds himself an infertile adult, or dies of old age and is autopsied. Some people live and die with intersex anatomy without anyone (including themselves) ever knowing.


Which variations of sexual anatomy count as intersex? In practice, different people have different answers to that question. That’s not surprising, because intersex isn’t a discreet or natural category.


What does this mean? Intersex is a socially constructed category that reflects real biological variation. To better explain this, we can liken the sex spectrum to the color spectrum. There’s no question that in nature there are different wavelengths that translate into colors most of us see as red, blue, orange, yellow. But the decision to distinguish, say, between orange and red-orange is made only when we need it—like when we’re asking for a particular paint color. Sometimes social necessity leads us to make color distinctions that otherwise would seem incorrect or irrational, as, for instance, when we call certain people “black” or “white” when they’re not especially black or white as we would otherwise use the terms.


In the same way, nature presents us with sex anatomy spectrums. Breasts, penises, clitorises, scrotums, labia, gonads—all of these vary in size and shape and morphology. So-called “sex” chromosomes can vary quite a bit, too. But in human cultures, sex categories get simplified into male, female, and sometimes intersex, in order to simplify social interactions, express what we know and feel, and maintain order.


So nature doesn’t decide where the category of “male” ends and the category of “intersex” begins, or where the category of “intersex” ends and the category of “female” begins. Humans decide. Humans (today, typically doctors) decide how small a penis has to be, or how unusual a combination of parts has to be, before it counts as intersex. Humans decide whether a person with XXY chromosomes or XY chromosomes and androgen insensitivity will count as intersex.


In our work, we find that doctors’ opinions about what should count as “intersex” vary substantially. Some think you have to have “ambiguous genitalia” to count as intersex, even if your inside is mostly of one sex and your outside is mostly of another. Some think your brain has to be exposed to an unusual mix of hormones prenatally to count as intersex—so that even if you’re born with atypical genitalia, you’re not intersex unless your brain experienced atypical development. And some think you have to have both ovarian and testicular tissue to count as intersex.


Rather than trying to play a semantic game that never ends, we at ISNA take a pragmatic approach to the question of who counts as intersex. We work to build a world free of shame, secrecy, and unwanted genital surgeries for anyone born with what someone believes to be non-standard sexual anatomy.


By the way, because some forms of intersex signal underlying metabolic concerns, a person who thinks she or he might be intersex should seek a diagnosis and find out if she or he needs professional healthcare.

[xynthee]

6. Try this link

Don't feel too bad; I'd never heard of it, either. So sorry for my ignorance!!!

http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex

[xynthee]

7. Sorry, but I was trying to post this from Firefox

I tried to post this at least 7 or 8 times from Firefox and it didn't work. I only had to try once from IE. Long live Microsoft!! :sarcasm:

[maddiejoan]

8. Don't be sorry :)

Awareness of Intersex issues is far from what it should be.

[mitchtv]

20. over 60 y/o Gay fr most

WTF is intersex?

[Senior citizen]

9. Sure it is true.

The T in GLBT doesn't say TBUTONLYIFYOUAREQUEERIDENTIFIED.

It just says T. While the GLBT community may not be tolerant of transgender people who do not identify as queer, such people may not know that until after seeing the T, thinking it denoted a community that might accept them, and finding out otherwise the hard way.

As for transgender people being visible, they're only visible once you know they're transgender. The average citizen doesn't question a person's external personna.

Again, while the majority of bisexuals may ID as queer, those who don't might see the B and think it denoted a community that might accept them until they found out the hard way that it didn't.

If GLBT actually means Q, why doesn't it just say Q? Why pretend to a diversity that actually doesn't exist?

Adding I to GLBT would not place limits on intersexed people. Many intersex people already find more acceptance among GLBT individuals than in the straight community. It certainly doesn't create a third wheel to say that intersex people are part of the community of people who don't happen to conform to traditional sex or gender roles. It definitely doesn't say there are three sexes instead of two, it says there aren't just two because there are also intersex people, and that can lead people to educate themselves about intersex people and learn that there is a spectrum rather than a polarity. Unless, of course, the GLBT believes there are only two sexes, and although enlightened individuals like you know better, the community itself isn't ready to accept the truth--or the people who embody it.

As it happens, I personally was totally unaware that the GLBT community was not tolerant of bisexuals and transgender people who weren't queer identified until you explained it to me in this thread. I thought GLBT meant GLBT. Now I know it means Q.

(On edit: There's a great song I heard on pirate radio. The lyrics go: "I don't have to make a choice; I like girls and I like boys." I would assume a person like that is bisexual, but apparently they're not the sort of bisexual in GLBT.)

[maddiejoan]

10. You've done a fine job of placing words in my mouth.

It's not a matter of what the LGBT community accepts or doesn't accept. My point is not all intersex people belong the LGBT community. I happen to have been a GLBT activist for the last 25 years, so please spare me your condecension.

You asked my opinion, I gave it to you. Do you think we should add "M" for man and "W" for women into LGBT? Then why do you think we should add "I"?

And indeed, I do often wonder why it's not just "Q" for queer. Adding extra initials, to my mind, creates division (as in which letter are you?)

Like I say --there is much overlap of issues, just as there is much overlap in all LGBT issues, but the answer isn't adding another initial. The answer is in education and awareness of intersex issues in both straight and queer communities.

[Senior citizen]

11. You already have M and W

What did you think the L and G stood for? You don't need two separate letters for queer.

I don't think M and W should be added because they represent patriarchal gender roles, not biological sex. Male, female, and all varities of intersex across the spectrum are something you just are. Acting like a boy or girl or a M(an) or W(oman) requires training as to exactly how that is done in your particular patriarchal society.

I agree that the answer is in education and awareness of intersex issues in both straight and queer communities. But believe me, it isn't going to start with straights. I thought education and awareness were the purpose of the LGBT movement also. Since you already had the L for female queer and the G for male queer, why were the B and T added? You say that if they don't identify as L or G, they don't belong in LGBT, so why add them as B & T if they are already either L or G? Isn't that just superfluous? Or is it because there are many issues requring education and awareness about Bs and Ts?

I am extremely concerned about the genital mutilation of intersex infants, and I think that adding an I to a larger social movement that already has some influence, might give the I community a share in that influence. Or at least more recognition.

I apologize if I seem condescending or am putting words in your mouth. I think you would prefer if it was just Q instead of LGBT. I respect your opinion because your posts are intelligent and informed. But I wasn't asking out of idle curiosity--intersex people are not part of the straight community, even if they identify as such, because they are not strictly M or F. And they're not part of the LGBT community because they're not all queer identified. So where the hell does that leave them?

[maddiejoan]

12. M and W

"What did you think the L and G stood for? You don't need two separate letters for queer"

I thought L and G stood for Lesbian and Gay. M and W aren't necessarily that, and neither is I. Sorry, but I don't buy the notion that "straight" people can't understand or accept intersexuality. It is particularly important to address intersexuality with young expectant heterosexual couples since the possibility that 1 in 2,000 of them will have an intersexed child, and need to know how to deal with the medical communities rush to unecessary surgery.

Intersexed people are just as likely to be gay or straight as males or females, adding an "I" to LGBT signals they aren't, and enforces a societal perception that they are naturally queer. B & T are not superfluous additions as these both are included because of sexual preference. T is a rather complicated issue, however. Is a m2f transsexual attracted to women gay or straight? That very ambiguity of definition makes it a natural inclusion.

With intersexed people the issue becomes even more complex. Intersex is not a gender, nor is it a recognized biological sex. Inclusion in LGBT muddies the water rather than clarifies.

[Senior citizen]

13. Now you're putting words in my mouth.

I didn't say that straight people can't understand or accept intersexuality. I said that acceptance of intersexed individuals isn't going to start in the more intolerant community. However it is possible that neither community, gay or straight, is more or less intolerant than the other.

Although intersex people aren't necessarily Lesbian or Gay, neither are bisexuals or transgendered people. I haven't heard any complaint from the transgender community that their inclusion in LGBT enforces a societal perception that they are naturally queer, although some of them are not, or at least do not identify as such. Is an intersex person who is biologically slightly more female than male and is attracted to women gay or straight? Why should ambiguity of definition made it a natural inclusion for one group, but not for another?

Never mind. I apologize for butting in here. I don't belong here. I belong in the new feminist group where gender is problematic rather than mandatory. You've answered my question. Intersex people do not have a place in the LGBT community because they are not a biological sex or a traditional gender. If I'm still alive in five or ten years, I'll probably come back and ask again. I've also been an advocate for 25 years--for something called equality.

[Misunderestimator]

17. I think you're misinterpreting something here...

"I personally was totally unaware that the GLBT community was not tolerant of bisexuals and transgender people who weren't queer identified until you explained it to me in this thread."

No one said that the GLBT community had no place for bisexuals and transgendered people who aren't queer. I think the point was that SOME bisexuals and transgendered people do not identify with the label GLBT and therefore, aren't part of the community... they don't want to be.

I don't even want to be part of it, because it identifies me by my sexual orientation, but I am a part of it, because of the necessity of having unity in battling homophobia.

[One_Life_To_Give]

14. They share a number of issues with Trans don't they

While intersex people have a number of issues unique to themselves. They suffer from many issues common to the rest of the GLBT world. That of being Masculine of Feminine enough to fit "societies" preconceived notions. When we advance the cause of GLBT we improve the conditions facing Intersex people as well.

When we add "I" to the banner it says, IMHO. Intersex people are welcome here, please come join us. Not that the whole community will take up a issue specific to Intersex only. But that we will work together toward common goals.

[maddiejoan]

15. You can say the same thing about biological males and females.

While males and females have a number of issues unique to themselves. They suffer from many issues common to the rest of the GLBT world. That of being Masculine or Feminine enough to fit "societies" preconceived notions. When we advance the cause of GLBT we improve the conditions facing male and female people as well.

When we add "M&W" to the banner it says, IMHO. all male and female people are welcome here, please come join us. Not that the whole community will take up a issue specific to biological males and females only. But that we will work together toward common goals.

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered intersexed individuals are already welcome in the GLBT community. As lesbians, gays, bisexuals and the transgendered. Adding an "I" makes no more sense to me than adding an "M" or "W", and is from my perspective as an intersexed woman bordering on marginalization.

There are indeed a number of overlap issues in common with the transgendered, also with lesbians, also with gays, also with bisexuals, also with straights, also with abuse victims, also with men, also with women, also with toaster ovens and dental floss.

[One_Life_To_Give]

16. If they identify with one or the other

If all/most/many intersex people identify as being one or the other and not a third or in between. However if a significant number feel they are neither male nor female. Then they could be left isolated. Not that it is necessarily up to the GLB to provide a place for them to feel they belong.

[Q3JR4]

18. I think the term

GLBT has to go. We should have something that can be used to identify anyone who is in a non-heterosexual model of sexuality or gender identity.

It shouldn't be G's against L's and everyone against B's and T's with B's against T's, that gets us nowhere. We all want the same thing, to be able to live our lives without outside interference in the way that is most comfortable to us.

Whether your a person with atypical genitalia, a man who self identifies with a woman and wants the rights and privileges in her new body, a gay or lesbian person who wants to marry and start a family, together we're a bigger force to be reckoned with than apart.

Furthermore if part of our community stands with the "normal" or "straight" folks and help them to demonize a different part, then that sliver's call for acceptance is hypocritical at best.

[mockmonkey]

19. I've seen GLBTI

and GLBTQ so some do use that but the question is how many letters do you need before it becomes OVERKILL? My B/F is f2m trans and sees himself as gay as in "G" LBT and not GLB "T". I think we get it. Just because you add a letter doesn't change others perceptions of you on an individual basis. I consider intersex to be part of the "T" someone else might not. I'm sure there are some that wish it were just "GL" or "LG". Or if you are a Log Cabin Republican just "ME".

[Boomer]

21. I like plain, simple "queer"

As in strange, as in raises eyebrows, as in anything that puts a person outside the normative convention of masculine het males and feminine het females and nothing in between.

Where one falls between and or outside of the "norm" is less relevant than the altered perspective we gain for knowing that these concepts are more fluid, more shifting than straight society wants to admit.

[Boomer]

22. GLBTQ? Who the hell makes these things up?

I get so tired of some urban-centered activist group who gets all the media attention creating these absurd acronyms and then everyone else in the country acting as if this is now written in stone and actually means something.

Senior Citizen seems to be under the impression that there is ONE queer community which sets the rules for who gets in and who doesn't belong. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Gay communities are like overlapping circles, some larger than others, that stretch across the world. The character of each one is determined by the participants and their level of tolerance for class, race, gender, clothing budget, alcohol tolerance and all the other markers of human nature. What is accepted in one community may be anathema in another. There is NOT one set of rules.

As for the national activist movement, they's gone through an alphabet soup of names: Gay, GL, GLB, GLBT, LGBT, LBGBTI -- It's beyond ridiculous to keep adding letters and using that as an index of philosophy. Over all the move has always been toward inclusion rather than exclusion. The sentiments are widely queer, even if the struggle to name that philisophy of inclusion has become an exercise in futility because someone doesn't see their letter on the list.