"Ex-Gays...." What's your $0.02?

[SacredCow]

As an Ex-Breeder, myself, I think that a shift in one's sexuality is certainly possible. I can't honestly say that I was entirely pretending or hiding all those years. There WAS genuine attraction to the women that I dated and eventually married. But time and events brought a shift in things, and... This is where I am now, and I am OK with it (better than OK, in fact!). But I wasn't "recruited" to the gay world, as many Fundies would probably suggest- I found it all on my own, and had been curious about it ever since puberty. If there are any attempts at recruiting going on, it's all of the organizations and websites promoting "Ex-Gay" services and counseling. These folks clearly prey on gay people who are at odds with themselves, their families, their churches, etc...

I don't know anybody who was "healed" by such an organization, but I did know one man who became ex-gay. He had grown children when he came out, and he lived as a gay man for almost 10 years. And when I say lived, I mean he ***LIVED***, baby!!! Let's just say that he was a wild one that just immersed himself in all things gay and he seemed to be good with it. When his dad passed away, he began to change. He spent a LOT of time with his family (natural- after the death of your father) who were largely pretty religious. One day, out of the blue, he calls me to say that he couldn't live the gay life anymore. He was selling his house, quitting his job, and moving to the small town where his brother lived. When I pressed him for a reason, he just simply said that he now believed that it was "wrong" for him be gay. That was about it- he didn't try to convert me or say that I was on the road to hell or anything like that. He just hung up, and I haven't heard from him since. I hope he's well and happy with his new life. I'll never know whether or not he was "recruited" to the ex-gay fold, or whether it was a personal choice that he made all on his own, but I guess it doesn't matter too much.

So all this to say- I think there can be, and IS a presence of truly ex-gay people out there. But I don't pay much heed to the ones who are actively out there PROMOTING becoming ex-gay. Just like I can't convince a straight guy to come to the other side, neither can they convince me to come back to THEIR side- It's gotta come from within!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

1. I think the power of suppression can be strong

And unhealthy.

People are born gay. It can't be changed.

[Deja Q]

7. In that you are quite correct.

Nobody can change their attractions. But it is possible to not indulge them to the point of discomforting others.

I am attracted to this one guy, who is creeped out by gay people in general because the idea of another man being attracted to him is (whatever it is he thinks it is...). That's his problem, but I'm not going to go out of my way to do anything that creeps him out further. Wouldn't do anybody any good... Besides, I'm more inclined to tell the female coworker not all gay men do the same things with each other because she seems to think that, in order to be gay, one must do a certain act... (uh, not true either...)

[SacredCow]

11. I believe people are born exactly as they are....

but that orientation CAN change within one's lifespan. Granted, I would think that such a case would mean that one was born pretty close to dead middle bisexual for that to happen. And I believe that's where I was/am.

As for suppression- yeah, I know all about that. The last few years of marriage were very difficult and unhealthy for me.

[Warpy]

16. I'm old, so I've seen the consequences

of gay men marrying, often because they want the kids, the house in the burbs, the services of an unpaid maid, and the dog with hair in its eyes. They got all that but the emotional and occasionally physical cost to the wife was appalling.

Yes, I know a woman who found out hubby was gay when that run down feeling turned out to be HIV.

Other wives were "luckier," spending a couple of decades wondering what was wrong with them because hubby wasn't interested in sex.

I would far rather see gays recognized for who they are and given an opportunity to have the suburban family with each other instead of trying to be what they're not and ruining two lives.

That closet is a very unhealthy place.

[SacredCow]

18. I live with the regret of what I put my ex through....

But I know in my heart that I married her because I loved her- not because I wanted to use her as a means to a "normal" life. And it was kind of the opposite, as far as the sex thing goes- She was the one who shut me out (the last 2 years of our marriage was sexless, by her refusal, and basically was what led to me seeking out other avenues). But the real kick in the pants came when we were going through the divorce, and she played the "He's gay, so he shouldn't be allowed to see his children unsupervised" card. After that, it was gloves-off.

All that said, I can't discount that what she went through was another version of the same hell.

[Warpy]

29. I'm sorry you went through that

and most of the closeted marriages I've seen did involve real love between spouses.

However, it was still hell.

I'm sorry you both had to experience it.

[Creideiki]

17. Some are born bisexual, also

My little brother is definitely attracted to people of both sexes.

[robinlynne]

2. Interesting, thought you were describing a friend of mine there...

His ex-husband is my close friend, and he decided to become a priest(not sure catholic or other christian) and therefore decided he could not be gay. He did not become a straight person though, just a non-sexual person. I believe he still really loves his ex-partner. Interesting how religion seems to be the common motivator. And the Christian religions are really just people's interpretation of writings. So all we would need to do is change the interpretations and voila.

[SacredCow]

5. In a way, I'd like to know....

if my friend became "straight" or sexless. I suspect the latter.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

6. Well, the Catholic Church doesn't believe that you can make yourself not be gay

You can be celibate, but you'll still be gay. I've known gay-identified priests, and they don't believe it can be changed.

[ejpoeta]

3. i tend to think people are trying to do the right thing and be who they think they

are supposed to be. it's tough when you have people telling you your feelings are bad or something. as someone raised with the idea that sex is bad and there was something wrong with the naked body etc... i can relate. i still struggle with my desire to have sex and such. i am married and have two kids, which is funny that i still struggle with it. LOL! i don't know about being an 'ex gay' as i am not gay. but my husband's best friend is gay, and i must say it was not surprise to anyone when he came out. i think in general people have a hard enough time trying to figure out what they want or need in life, and the input of others and their ideas about things just complicates things.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. i think its easy enough to coerce people who have been rasied to believe gay is wrong

that gay is indeed wrong.

i tend to think that one creates the gay life they want. so if your gay life is sleeping with a new man a day and partying till 4.00 am, and this disgusts you. you only have yourself to blame and not the gay life.

i loathe ex gays even while i can understand why they do it.

[SacredCow]

8. Personally, my upbringing was a mixed bag....

I attended a fundie school for a while, so you know what I got there... My parent's weren't exactly PRO gay, but... I had a cousin (though he was closer to my parent's age) who was gay, and my parents couldn't have loved him more.

But I can't really understand why I should hate an ex-gay, if their decision was made for their own personal comfort (whether this be because they're scared that they're going to hell, or just because they somehow find that the opposite sex has become more attractive to them). As long as they don't put themselves on a pedestal and say, "Look at me!!! I did it, and YOU can too!!!" I just can't come down hard on them.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. the problem is that very often they do put them selves on a pedestal

or are willing to be used by others on pedestals, to spread the word that you can change sexual orientation and that being gay can be fixed.

i wouldnt detest your friend if he went quietly in the night but my experience wiht ex gays has not been that. it has been to support an agenda that has recruited them. a vile and homophobic agenda.

[SacredCow]

14. Fair enough....

"went quietly in the night..." :rofl: That about sums it up, really.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. yes. i am fine with ex gays who are not pushing at antigay agenda

i just find them to be rare

[XemaSab]

36. The whole idea of "fixing" gays implies that there's something broken

I think society needs to change, not individual gay people.

[FreeState]

13. I dont think you should hate anyone

including "ex-gays". But I think its important to see them for what they really are - someone who is trying to be what they personally believe they should be on one level or another (their delusions are not more important here - all of our pooled humanity is more likely to help people who are trapped into thinking their orientation is in need of changing than a judgement on their misguided beliefs IMO). Who they are has nothing to do with you or your identity unless you invite their beliefs in.

Coming out is an act of love - its the beginning of loving yourself and rejoicing in life so that you can spread and share that love to others. That example is way more powerful in the long run politically and personally than going back into the closed - be it by the delusion of changing ones orientation or out of fear. IMHO of course:)

[Deja Q]

9. Huh?

I can only use myself as an example: My gay life is finding the right person and building a life-long partnership. The STEREOTYPE about the 'gay life' revolves around finding a new man per day and parting until 4AM. That I loathe more than anything else, and that is why I understand "ex-gays". They/we don't like the stereotypes and nobody wants to listen or detach themselves from their happy little stereotypes. And since mainstream Americans seem to hover around the stereotype than being able to think, that's how the gay life is perceived to be. Which means it becomes all our problems since people prefer their simple stereotypes to actually thinking that issues can be just a tad more complex.

(Also, a pro-gay coworker things that in order for a male to be gay, he has to do anal sex. Uh, okay... but that's as much reality as it is that gay people are out there partying and sleazing it up.)

You can tell people who should be put to blame. What the hell, so will I. We all have ourselves to blame for some part of this world. No exceptions.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. i dont think you can read. i clearly didnt say anything that could elicit this bizzarre response. nt

[Duncan Grant]

19. I think there's a larger presence of people too afraid to come out.

The "ex-gay" movement is simply a product/commodity marketed by an institution. One either "buys" into it or not.

The more I can do to educate people about that product -- the better.

[SacredCow]

20. I think the most telling thing about 90% of the ex-gay services...

is that they promote it as SUCH an important thing to do for the greater good of society, etc.... Then, it continues, "and for the low price of $99.99, we will send you all of the resources that you need to wash the gay away!!!"

I mean, if it's so friggin' important- wouldn't they be doing the service gratis?

[qb]

21. Havelock Ellis & John Addington Symonds had this figured out over 100 years ago.

For their book "Sexual Inversion" (1897) they used case histories from gays & lesbians who considered their orientation healthy and moral (as opposed to most of their contemporaries, who focused on prison and asylum inmates). They came to the conclusion that most cases of sexual inversion are congenital, and those whose orientations appear to have been influenced by their environments were already predisposed.

Ironically, Havelock's son, Albert Ellis wrote a book entitled "Homosexuality: Its Causes and Cure". He disavowed that premise and method in the 1970s and championed gay rights until his death.

I was born bi, but leaned heavily towards same-sex attraction. I got married anyway and it didn't last. I consider myself completely gay now.

[SacredCow]

22. Sounds like we followed the same path....

:hi:

[qb]

24. Indeed!

:hi:

[stray cat]

23. I think I have no right telling someone whether they are gay or not

[DarkTirade]

25. Is it possible? Sure. Shift happens. :) Is it likely? No. Shifts usually stay within a range.

So in order to really shift odds are good that the person started out somewhere in the middle. (I'm not saying it HAS to be though... its different for everybody.) Can the gay be prayed away? Fuck no.

[SacredCow]

26. Yeah- further down I think I clarified a bit...

I do believe that I started somewhere in the middle...

[DarkTirade]

27. Yep. I think I started a little bit to one side and drifted more towards the middle myself...

... but I don't know how much of that was just peer pressure and what was expected of me. And how much was teenage testosterone making me get distracted by boobies. :P

[SacredCow]

28. Hehehe....

Same here.... I can't honestly say that I was never attracted to the female form- I surely was. But even at my most "horny for teh ladies" time, there was still a significant amount of looking at the gentlemen....

Then, when I made the leap... I found out that I just mesh better with guys, romantically-speaking AND friendship-wise. But after developing some friendships with a few lesbians, I also found out that I get on great with them, too (but I don't want to sleep with them, and vice-versa!) :P

[TheWraith]

35. If you can get distracted by boobies, you've got a legitimate girl-loving streak. :D

Show a completely gay man a lovely naked woman and he wouldn't give a damn.

[LeftHander]

30. An Ex Gay person I met said they have gay sex half as much....nt

[iris27]

31. I have yet to meet one who WASN'T promoting becoming ex-gay.

If I did, I'd have no problem with them. But the rest...:grr:

IMO, those 'programs' have a success rate of about 5% - I believe those 5% were bi to start with. As a bi woman who grew up Lutheran, I can see that having been my life if I were a little more pro-authority and if Lutherans were a little more fundie. Certainly when I was a young pre-teen and first heard the debate over whether sexuality was a choice, I took the fundie side...because I thought EVERYONE was attracted to both genders like I was, and that most people chose not to act on their same-sex attractions. So, for a bi person who's grown up believing that same-sex attraction is a sin, it's like the ex-gay rhetoric is written just for them. It just fits. They eventually find an opposite-sex partner that attracts them, and spend the rest of their lives dealing with same-sex attraction as a "temptation" to be overcome, like the temptation toward any other "sin".

I don't believe it works on any truly gay person any more than an "ex-straight" program would work on a straight person.

[bluedawg12]

32. This raises two issues: sexual attraction and personal "lifestyle"

I think sexual attraction comes in many variations.

Some people are exclusively attracted to the different sex

Some people are exclusively attracted to the same sex

Some people are attracted to both sexes.

Those are internal realities that cannot be willed in or out of existence, but the expression of any of those can sure be suppressed through external means. (Fear, intimidation, laws,etc.)

The second bit seems to be about lifestyle, meaning living a life as in your example, of someone who parties alot.

I remember back in the day when I was single, that a lot of my friends would say, "I am tired of the bar scene."

Settling down getting that house, the two cats, the golden retriever LOL, that seems like a lifestyle choice.

Maybe for some, being gay is too tied in to the party scene, again I am thinking about your example, and he just needed a break from it all. That was his way of doing it. Plus the move to a small town is revealing.

It does seem a little extreme in the example you gave, after all, but who knows what all was behind it.

I don't think you can change your attractions, I think exgay programs provide a way to suppress your attractions, often for teens and young folks forced into those programs. I strongly disapprove of that.

[Toucano]

33. $0.02? I don't make judgments about other people's lives and

I expect the same respect. Human sexuality is complex, and yet so simple at the same time.

Regarding homosexuality as something that needs to be cured is patently ignorant, but what can you do? Lead the horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

There are plenty of positive learning resources available (at least to adults), so if someone chooses to subject themselves to a "cure", I wish them luck and hope they find what they are looking for.

Forcing adolescents into such treatments, however, should be a crime.

[TheWraith]

34. I think you'll find that genuine shifts tend to be somewhat bisexual in the first place...

The non-genuine ones, of course, tend to be self-explainatory.

But yes, some people can have preferences drift over time. Sometimes short periods of time, sometimes longer. But one has to be flexible in the first place (no pun intended), which is why it's not more common.