Police tasered gay porn actor Andrew Grande to death

[FreeState]

http://www.bilerico.com/2009/12/police_tasered_gay_porn_actor_andrew_grande_to_dea.php

The three police officers holding down one person must have been in serious danger here, since they Tasers are sold as just a safer tool to use than a gun. But is that how the police would have handled this situation before, if a man was resisting arrest but was held down by three officers? By shooting him?

VIdeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pqhtXrE2QY&feature=player_embedded

The sheriff's comments are infuriating:

This afternoon, Bay County sheriff told us that Grande most likely would have only faced misdemeanor charges had he cooperated, but once he resisted, the stakes became much more serious.

You know, the guy was on the ground. Officers were trying to handcuff him. If he'd allowed them to handcuff him, it would have been over. There would have been no tasing, there would have been no resisting, and this would not have happened. Unfortunately, our officers were there, but this subject chose to ingest this and put this in his mouth, and because of that, you know, he's dead.

Stone cold, that man. They use force that they know has already killed lots of people in America because a man was resisting a misdemeanor arrest, and then he blames the guy for dying.

I understand that the cops have a difficult job, and I'm sure that it would be much easier for them to perform if everyone just did what they were told all the time. But some people won't follow police orders and they'll resist being arrested, and killing them isn't the response to that.

Yes, Grande had marijuana in his stomach. But the officers should think about the risk that Tasers are known to put people in before they shoot them up full of electricity. What if Grande had a heart condition? What if he had a nervous condition? And are these officers really qualified to tell if someone they plan on zapping is in stable enough condition to survive that attack?

We know that Tasers kill, so why are we letting police officers become judge, jury, and executioner when they feel someone isn't properly respecting them? Probably because, as we see every time someone dies in police custody, people place blind faith in the officers' intentions and finds a way to blame the person who was held down and shot full of electricity.

[Bolo Boffin]

1. While he was trying to swallow a bag of marijuana.

I'm just saying. I know there are examples of excessive use of force with Tasers.

But the Taser didn't kill this guy.

[FreeState]

2. It may have helped keep the bag logged in his throat though

the shock from the taser makes muscles contract (in this case swallow).

[kieselbach]

20. ......

Just what I thought seen this video. He swallowed the content in his mouth (the bag) while being tasered.

[Toasterlad]

13. Oh, So He Wouldn't Have Died If He Hadn't Been Tasered? Fascinating.

Everything else seems to indicate that's not the case. Thanks for clearing that up with your vast medical knowledge.

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. The action doesn't matter if there are little to no consequences

Cops will continue to do this as long as they are not held accountable.

[paulsby]

4. rubbish article

right from the first sentence...

" since they Tasers are sold as just a safer tool to use than a gun"

just blatantly false. tasers are not a gun replacement, and they are used much lower on the use of force continuum.

firearms are deadly force.

tasers are less lethal.

we don't KNOW that tasers kill, except for the numerous ignorant articles that deduce that because a person died, and that he had been tased, before he died, that the taser CAUSED the death.

they don't read the AUTOPSY reports, which usually shed a very different light on why the people died.

people have ALWAYS died in wrestling matches with cops. see: excited delirium, etc.

i had a guy stop breathing on me and almost die after about 5 minutes of wrestling him into handcuffs. no taser used. just the exertion of the fight.

fortunately, he was revived.

even firefighters, who are generally pretty fit, die quite frequently FROM EXERTION related to their job. their hearts give out.

tasers save lives. it sucks this guy died. but them's the facts. if the article can't even get the first frigging sentence right, it's evidence it's just rubbish.

i've been tased 3 times. it's safe. i would volunteer to be shot, or to be struck with a baton.

i have yet to hear (there may be a case, but i haven't heard of one) of a single incident of a cop, reporter, or other person who was tased as part of training or demonstration die.

it's NOT the taser that is dangerous. it is people who fight with police (see: fight or flight response), experience massive adrenaline dumps, exertion, and are often under the influence of one or more drugs, not to mention that many of these people are profoundly unhealthy, either as addicts or street people who get poor nutrition, etc.

[FreeState]

5. Hu?

firearms are deadly force.

tasers are less lethal.

we don't KNOW that tasers kill, except for the numerous ignorant articles that deduce that because a person died, and that he had been tased, before he died, that the taser CAUSED the death.

How can something be less lethal - if as you claim here, they dont kill?

[paulsby]

8. ANY use of force can

contribute to death, or in rare circumstances - kill.

for example, a baton strike to the leg CAN kill.

it has happened before. for example, the bone snaps, and there is a tear in the major artery and the guy bleeds out.

or a punch to the nose, in rare circs can kill, or a guy can get knocked out by the punch and then fall and hit his head and die from that.

that's why it's considered "less lethal". so is a baton strike, even to a tertiary target (there are three levels of targets).

beanbag guns have the same issues, as would any impact weapon (baton, fist, kick, etc.)

like i said, i've been tased 3 times, and i have yet to hear of one incident of a cop, reporter, etc. tased during demonstration that died.

note the differences in the cases where cops taser suspects, and the fact that people have ALWAYS died in fight or flight type situations (see also the firefighter examples).

the reality is that ANY time you use force, there is risk of death , to you or them.

tasers also allow officers to keep a reactive distance and make it less likely they will be disarmed (and subsequently killed), and are VERY good at deterrence.
i've never fired my taser in over 3 years carrying it. but by displaying it in several situations and making demands for compliance, i have gained compliance. without the taser, it's much more likely, i would have to fight with the guy and/or strike them.

injury or death AVOIDED

[FreeState]

7. Heres some articles that disagree with you

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/health&id=6620623

Cardiologists study Taser-related deaths

Researchers from U.C. San Francisco are raising questions about the safety of Tasers. The stun guns are becoming standard weapons for law enforcement agencies, but this latest research indicates the real-world application of stun guns is leading to greater medical risks.

The Taser has become a tool more law enforcement agencies have come to rely on. Every time an officer pulls the trigger, 50,000 volts are injected into the target. Advocates say it's a safe way to subdue a suspect, but UCSF researchers, have their doubts.

"In our opinion, there is a potential lethal risk with Tasers," said Zian Tseng, MD, a UCSF researcher.

Cardiologists Byron Lee and Zian Tseng studied data provided by law enforcement agencies from 50 cities, and found the number of in-custody deaths went up six-fold in the first year a department started using Tasers. Lee and Tseng believe officers may be aiming too close to the heart.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/us-human-rights/taser-abuse/page.do?id=1021202

Since June 2001, more than 351 individuals in the United States have died after being shocked by police Tasers. Most of those individuals were not carrying a weapon. Amnesty International is concerned that Tasers are being used as tools of routine force -- rather than as an alternative to firearms.

Medical studies so far on the effects of Tasers have either been limited in scope or unduly influenced by the weapons' primary manufacturer. No study has adequately examined the impact of Tasers on potentially at-risk individuals -- people who have medical conditions, take prescription medications, are mentally ill or are under the influence of narcotics. Rigorous, independent, impartial study of their use and effects is urgently needed to determine what role Tasers may have played in the 351 deaths and to determine appropriate guidelines for future Taser use.

Given the unresolved safety concerns, Amnesty International recommends that police departments either suspend the use of Tasers and stun guns pending further safety research or limit their use to situations where officers would otherwise be justified in resorting to firearms.

http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_taser01.4643f29.html

An Inland coroner's office has ruled for the first time that Taser shocks contributed to a person's death.

Marlon Acevedo, 35, was high on PCP when he clashed with Riverside police one year ago on Halloween, according to the coroner's report. He was in the street screaming at passing cars, and officers struck him with batons and shocked him several times, the report said. He died at a hospital less than an hour later.

PCP intoxication is listed in the Riverside County sheriff-coroner's office report as the primary cause of death, but an enlarged heart, Taser shocks and the physical confrontation with police are cited as significant factors.

Tasers deliver an electric shock by shooting a pair of wires tipped with sharp barbs that pierce the skin and are widely used by Inland law enforcement agencies, including the Riverside County and San Bernardino County sheriff's departments, as an alternative to lethal force.

Some critics, such as the ACLU and Amnesty International, say Tasers can lead to fatal heart problems, and that people who are mentally impaired or who are on drugs are at a higher risk of dying, especially when receiving multiple or prolonged shocks. Coroners and medical examiners elsewhere in the United States have, on occasion, determined that Tasers played a role in deaths.

[paulsby]

9. those are good. i will check them out

note that, for example in the third article, the coroner office ruled (for the first time i note) that taser shock's CONTRIBUTED to a person's death.
again, almost any use of force can be a contributory factor. even the "physical confrontation" with police is cited as a contributory factor.

that's exactly my point i was making. tasers are involved when people are in high stress, fight or fight, heavy exertion, and in the case HIGH ON PCP (which is a frigging horse tranquilizer).

note also that users of PCP are EXTREMELY dangerous and unpredictable and usually unresponsive to ANY sort of pain. there have been cases of people on PCP running long distances on BROKEN legs and stuff like that.

of course, as the articles said tasers can and do play a role in deaths. that's an entirely different thing than saying they caused the death, like a bullet does.

also, here's a hint for people. if you are unhealthy (as most drug abusers are), take a boatload of drugs, and fight with police, there's a chance you will die. taser or not.

don't do it.

[FreeState]

10. "since they Tasers are sold as just a safer tool to use than a gun" - thats not a lie

heres the sites doing just that - selling them as a safer tool than a gun:

http://www.iammydefender.com/self-defence-articles/taser-stun-gun.php

Who Uses Tasers

Tasers are used by the police and military across the globe. They are considered by most to be safer than traditional guns, as they do not have the capacity to kill. Mini tasers are gaining increasing popularity as a self defense option for those that are not comfortable carrying a traditional hand gun.

http://www.securityprousa.com/mod44adtasm1.html

SUMMARY POINTS:
The TASER® Device is non-lethal TASER® Devices can’t kill or maim innocent bystanders with stray bullets. The TASER® Device is a defensive device, and can’t penetrate walls or doors. The TASER® Device is far more effective than other non-lethal self-defense devices, such as pepper sprays. The TASER® Device is designed to prevent criminal use and has proven successful to date. The TASER® Device is much safer than a gun to keep around children

[paulsby]

11. you are missing my point

and it's my bad if i didn't state it correctly. i'm willing to say that i didn't make it clearly.

i have seen several posts here, and articles purporting that tasers are a gun substitute.

that is not true.

it is true they are safer than a gun, at least in the respect that a misfire won't risk serious bodily injury (unless you shoot yerself in the eye), or shooting it at a person is exceptionally unlikely to cause death.

my point is that it is "safer" than a gun in that respect, but it's not a substitute for a gun, and is not used when a gun should be used.

my bad.

[FreeState]

12. I get your point - but I was just showing that while thats your belief the article was not wrong in

asserting that tasers are being offered by some as a safer alternate to guns.

I also understand your point that they are usually a contributing factor and not the main cause - however I wonder if the tasers were removed all together the effect it would have on the rate of deaths for those types of situations (it obviously makes it safer for the police - which is a good thing - however what is the gross effect on the perpetrator? From a human rights standpoint is there a way to make them less of a contributing factor to deaths?)

[paulsby]

16. there are definitely ways

to make taser uses safer, and a lot of this comes down to research and training

1) multiple taser uses. tasers (when fired, vs. when used to gain voluntary compliance) work two ways

the preferred taser application is where the darts are at least 4+ inches apart in a relatively heavily muscled area especially (like the back) where one can achieve NMI (Neuromuscular Incapapacitation). this literally locks the body up. NOBODY no matter how physically capable can overcome this. trust me. officers can move in while the body is locked and make the arrest. of course you have to have at least two officers for this to be a possibility.

if one dart misses, the person will only feel a very slight buzz. in that case, the officer can either eject the cartridge (takes a few seconds) and use a new one OR approach and contact the body, which will complete the circuit and lock the person up

the problem is that some officers in the past, instead of cuffing DURING NMI have waited till the pulsing was over, verbally order the person to comply, the person refuses, and the cycle repeats.

over and over again.

unless there are some sort of exceptional circumstances, that's unacceptable. when the NMI hits, you move in and cuff him then.

officers need to be trained to do this.

we certainly are.

the other way the taser is used is "drive stun", which is merely painful. it will not lock the person up. they can still fight. the same thing will happen when the darts are too close (like an inch or so).

in that case, especially with a PCP person, they are basically impervious to pain, so it will be ineffective.

officers again need to be trained that if it doesn't work after a few tries (5 at max is our dept. policy), then MOVE TO SOMETHING else.

that imo would significantly reduce the # of taser RELATED deaths.

i would hesitate to do more than 3. but that's me. i've never even done 1, but have used it to gain voluntary compliance about a 1/2 dozen times, likely saving myself and/or the suspect injury or even death.

so, in brief, officers need to be trained to move in during NMI, and to limit the # of applications. there was a case in eastern washington where a bull, which is much more resilient than a person, died after being tased (iirc like 30 times). the officers were acting in good faith, trying to get the bull out of the middle of a highway (car vs. bull is a bad accident).

in brief, if it is not working MOVE ON TO ANOTHER TYPE OF FORCE.

[Toasterlad]

14. Tasers Civil Rights Must Be Protected!

Police have every right to kill people who resist arrest! It's in the Bill of Rights!

[Th1onein]

18. "We don't KNOW tasers kill"?

We don't? Amnesty International tallys 334 deaths attributed to tasers. What do you mean we don't KNOW they kill?

[Algorem]

6. .

[Divine Discontent]

15. what a tragic video... regardless of what troubles he might have been in, or caused, if any,

he didn't deserve to choke to death... they couldn't poke the hole in his throat quickly for air? (no expert here, but I hope a med person can explain)

[LeftHander]

17. Cops mistook convulsions for resiting arrest probably...

So they keep tasing him. "HE IS STILL RESISTING!" GET ON YOUR BACK!!! ON YOUR BACK!!! ZZAAAAPPPPP. (cop kneeling on his neck) GET ON YOUR BACK!!! ZZZAAAAAAPPPPP

Cops "Resisting" is not following commands immediately.

[kieselbach]

19. Aspiration by continuous electric shock

The taser causes an electrical current to disrupt voluntary control of muscles. With the bag in his mouth and the total muscle contraction by the taser, he aspirated the bag. Otherwise the cough reflection wouldn't let that bag go down the airway.