OK I think I am a bad gay for asking this, but are gays coming out too young?

[dsc]

As we are seeing another awful October of gay suicide, I am beginning to wonder, what if gays are coming out too young? Being a teen is hard, being a gay teen is hard, coming out is hard, being an out gay teen is hardest of all. I can't help but think of myself back then. Could I have handled the pressure? Would I have made it out alive?

I don't know what the answer is. There may not be one as given the way society is now, people suspect gayness when before you could lay low. But I wonder if, as we have seen change elsewhere, we have left our must vulnerable behind in a world where they just can't hide even if they need to.

[Ian David]

1. I have no idea, but it is a question worth asking and discussing.

I think it's a question of who you come out to, who your parents are, where you live, and how strong you feel you and your network are.

But maybe there are certain kids, in certain circumstances, who need a message that says, "Yes, it gets better. But stay in the closet until then."

[TheWraith]

45. I think there's a blind spot in the OP, though.

Not bashing DSC for it, but his question assumes that these kids have to be "out" in order to be bullied, or that a 13, 14, 15 year old kid is capable of presenting a completely convincing false persona.

[Liberal Veteran]

2. While it's never too young to be true to yourself, one must consider the maturity of coping....

....mechanisms.

It brings two questions to my mind.

1. How do we create and perpetuate an environment where kids don't have to experience the blowback of coming out that so many do now?

2. What do we do in the meantime?

[RKP5637]

3. IMO what happens today is just being nice and a little different leaves one a gay suspect. It's

very very sad. I've thought several times coming out young must require a tremendous amount of inner strength. What gets to me are the dumb adults ... we didn't know, well what could we have done ... and then those that are permissive and encouraging to the bullies. What a weird twisted world. No wonder humans are perpetually at war with one another, what a bunch of ignoramuses, a bunch of throwbacks.

[Firebrand Gary]

4. Nope. Children should be allowed to grow into their future from the beginning.

There is an episode of Our America with Lisa Ling, on OWN that has a family who has embraced a transgender at a very young age, 6 I think. I thought it was one of the most powerful images of embracing our children.

[kestrel91316]

5. I think ALL teens need to step back a bit from the whole sexual thing.

They need to be kids, and sexuality is for adultish folks.

It takes emotional maturity to deal with the consequences of ANY sexuality.

[xmas74]

9. See my post in this thread.

Please tell me if you think I'm irrational in my feelings.

[JSchaefer93]

31. RE: I think ALL teens need to step back a bit from the whole sexual thing.

So when you're sitting in class and you think the boy sitting on the other side of the room you're suppose to ignore those feelings and pretend like they're not even there? Or when you realize you're beginning to like your best friend more than a friend. Alright. When you're a teenager your hormones are raging. I lost my virginity at 16.. which is actually late compared to other kids I go to school with. Plus you have to deal with the fear that you might not be accepted by your peers, but then you also have your guy friends breathing down your neck about how hot that girl is in your history class and how she likes you and how she gives good head. But you want nothing of that. Because you're beginning to realize you don't like girls..

[ruggerson]

33. Sorry, that's a bit too James Dobson-like for me

I think America's puritanical attitudes towards sex have caused great damage to teens and young adults. What we should be doing is helping young people understand that their sexuality is natural and healthy, not trying to repress them even further.

[dsc]

41. One can be gay without having sex

I tend to agree that avoiding sex as a young teen is a good idea but knowing one is gay can happen when one is a virgin.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

46. LOL.

:eyes:

[libodem]

6. I hear you

I have great compassion for the despair those kids feel.

[Rabblevox]

7. I didn't come out until my mid-20's. Personally, in my teens I was no way ready to deal...

with the backlash from my conservative Baptist family and community.

Granted, the world is different now than in 1985 when I came out, but your question is well worth pondering. (and I don't have a good answer).

For some, coming out is relatively smooth. For me it wasn't, and I wasn't able to go fully public until I had lined up a lot of support behind the scenes, and was confident in my own power.

If I had come out in my teens? I'm pretty sure I would have been ostracized, shamed, bullied, and had no resources to deal with it.

OTOH, staying in the closet one second longer than necessary really sucks, and eats at the soul.

Wish I had an easy answer for you, but it's not an easy question.

[xmas74]

8. I wondered about this recently too.

A classmate of my daughter's recently came out as bisexual. She's ten. When I was that age the last thing I even thought about was boys and girls. I was more concerned with how far I could ride my bike, if I would make the softball team (I really wanted to play first base), and when the newest Choose Your Own Adventure book would be released. My daughter's classmate has expressed an interest in having both a boyfriend and a girlfriend-as soon as possible.

I have no problems with bisexuality but I wonder if ten, eleven, twelve isn't far too young to worry about sexuality and all that it entails? My own child (eleven) isn't even allowed to think about dating for a few years.

Is it wrong for me to feel uncomfortable with this child? I don't think it's the bisexuality but rather the overt sexuality that is being exhibited by her at such a young age. She dresses in a manner far too old, hangs out with teenage boys and girls, and seems to know about things far beyond her years.

[kestrel91316]

18. Makes me wonder what is going on in her environment that has her

so focused on sexuality at an age when, yeah, girls normally don't know anything about it, and if they do, they don't care.

Sex is not for CHILDREN.

[xmas74]

19. Glad to know it's not just me.

I thought ten was far too young to be focused on the issue.

Her parents are both working on graduate degrees, there is no money coming into the house (neither work), and they are never home with her. I've wondered if that, coupled with them all living in student housing on campus but no supervision, might add to the sexual acting out of the child.

[NMMNG]

10. I don't think so

I believe what we need to do is work harder to educate people, to improve support systems, and to do more to buffer the swill pushed by the anti-gays. Asking gay teens to stay in the closet while their hetero peers get to live in the open isn't the answer.

[JackBeck]

20. If the OP is the advisor for their GSA, they should be embarrassed by this post.

I'm seriously in shock.

[Zoeisright]

11. No. People need to be what they are.

Denying their sexuality is harmful. ABSOLUTELY not.

[MadMaddie]

12. I would then ask are heterosexual children coming out too soon?

What I do think is that parents need to get a backbone and stand up for their child and go after the bully's and their families. Until there is accountability the bullying will continue.

[dsc]

13. In many cases they apparently have done pretty much everything right

and still the results are bad. In the last two cases the kids apparently were under doctor's care and had supportive parents and still the same sad results.

[zipplewrath]

14. Roughly speaking, yes

As someone else expressed in this thread, the sexualization of our children is a problem in our culture.

Quite honestly, we need to figure out how to express/describe these orientations in some other manner than "sexuality". "Gender" or some similar concept is more what we are describing.

[NMMNG]

16. This isn't about sex/sexualization

People are gay or straight (or bi) regardless of whether they are knocking the boots. Why is it people can't get that?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. heterosexual privilege. nt

[MNBrewer]

15. If coming out means realizing what your attractions are and taking some actions based on that

then no. They're not coming out any earlier than straights have forever.

[William769]

17. I would not want anyone to think they are to young to be emancipated from oppression.

[meegbear]

21. I think it depends on the environment ...

I was picked on for being the fat, weak kid; coming out would've probably driven me to suicide (which I came close to a couple times for the fat harassment).

The guy who owns the bar I go to adopted two boys, one is in high school. While he's not gay, he's befriended a couple of guys in school who have come out and they're treated like another teen group - the jocks, the nerds, etc. This, of course, is in Massachusetts, so take from it what you will.

[closeupready]

22. Hard to answer - I'm going to think about and come back later

when I can compose a rational argument. Thanks for asking here. :hi:

[stevenleser]

23. I'm surprised to see the comments attacking the OP for even asking the question.

We all know what is going on here. LGBT*.* kids are killing themselves in alarming numbers and many more are severely traumatized by bullying. It's not a question the OP should be ashamed to have asked even if the consensus is that LGBT*.* kids should come out.

I had a rough time and all I could take adjusting in my teen years and I wasnt LGBT*.*. I cannot say with any degree of confidence that I would have made it if you add that additional opportunity for bullying.

I wonder if the message that should be put out there is that before making the decision to come out, teens should interface with their local chapter of the Trevor project and speak with a counselor who can make sure they have the appropriate support system around them. I guess that is my initial thought.

[William769]

24. If I may ask, at what age did you start dating?

At what age did you start hanging around people with like interets? AT what age did you know you were a heterosexual? AT what age did you want to express who you are by the way you acted? Why should the younger LGBT people be any different? Not expressing who you are can be just as dangerous as expressing who you are.

Yes we had teen suicdes due to this issue before this year, it just wasn't given the media attention it deserved.

I conteplated suicide on several occasions as a teenager in the late 70's, not because I came out of the closet, but because I couldn't come out of the closet.

ON EDIT: Please don't take this the wrong way but I don't feel any heterosexual has the knowledge to post any response in this thread, unless you have lived through being a LGBT person at a young age you have no idea what it's like.

[stevenleser]

25. Give it a rest with the "You're not one of us so you don't know" crap

I've been bullied and I have been discriminated against and I can empathize with a child or teen that is being bullied to the point of suicide. If you want to try to shut down someone's contribution, find someone else because you are not going to silence me.

[William769]

26. Self delete.

I don't need to argue with the self righteous.

[Maven]

30. But you are not gay, so you don't know.

Sorry, that's the truth. You may be able to draw parallels, but it is not your experience to have felt the need to hide your sexuality, so you do not know.

[stevenleser]

32. Forgetting for the moment that I do not agree with that sentiment. How does that invalidate anything

I wrote.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

57. you are not one of us and that does matter & if it wasnt for your extreme privilege

as a heterosexual, you would see this as relevant.

[stevenleser]

59. Every discriminated against group has people who say that and they are all wrong. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. LOL. nt

[stevenleser]

65. Yep, LOL is right. n/t

[stevenleser]

63. Furthermore, you havent provided any ideas that would stop the suicides, but you have certainly

criticized the two people in this thread who have tried to come up with solutions to a problem we all recognize as severe and catastrophic.

So let's sum up. I am not LGBT*.* but I have a proposed solution to at least mitigate the issue and would likely prevent most or all of the suicides. You are LGBT*.* but you have not provided a solution, only criticized and then castigated me for not submitting to the criticism of someone else that has nothing to do with preventing the suicide of these kids.

What is wrong with you?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. LOL. nt

[Evasporque]

27. The problem is not kids being gay and understanding it...

The problem is the people who think being gay is evil, deviant and wrong...

They are the ones with the problem. That is where efforts are needed...if not a real beat down of the haters that make young lives miserable.

[Maven]

28. What is too young?

Is it better to be young and closeted and repressed and feel totally alone, and unable to talk to anyone about it?

[closeupready]

29. Yeah, part of my response would be, how many suicides were prevented due to less closeted

lives being led? That is, we know for a fact that the closet helps nurture mental illness. That is a big part of the reason why a disproportionate share of gay youngsters engage in various self-destructive behaviors, such as alcohol binges, drug abuse, and suicide.

So on balance, if mere numbers is what one would be specifically concerned with here, are there more youngsters who are leading healthier lives OUTSIDE the closet than there would have been were we to have lived in an earlier time when one HAD TO live in the closet?

[LeftyMom]

34. Dude, what the hell?

First, I would argue that any argument against self-disclosure is ultimately based in shame. I hope you're not spreading your shame issues to your students.

Second, it's the responsibility of a supportive community to adapt to healthy young people, not healthy young people to conform to an unhealthy community.

Third, any parent with resources to do so should rear their kid in a supportive community, whether that means building one where they are or moving to someplace civilized. Likewise, any school or community group must operate on the assumption that some of those kids are gay, whether they're out yet or not, and adapt accordingly.

Fourth, while some kids find conformity to be a valid coping strategy, not all kids can pass. A family friend has a now adult son who was obviously gay from as long as anybody can remember. He came out in high school, but trust me, that was a formality. Actually, he got really pissed that nobody acted surprised.

Fifth, bullying is not caused by gay kids (or fat kids or kids with bad skin or poor kids or...) it's caused by bullies. Blaming kids for coming out (even if it's in a fucked up concern trolling kind of way) is like blaming rape on women's hem lengths. Fix the aggressors, not the victims.

Sixth, anybody on this thread who conflated orientation with sexual behavior and tut-tutted at kids these days can sit on a cactus. Attraction is not sex.

[dsc]

35. It is one thing when kids who came out in god awful places

with parents who apparently did a poor job of dealing with it come to problems but the last two cases are of kids who parents, as far as can be told, did everything right. The kids were in therapy, the parents were forward about dealing with the administrations of their schools, but still the result wound up the same. The fact is being out is hard work and draining, especially if one is the only out person as apparently the latest suicide was. I think that to some extent kids aren't being prepared for the very real difficulties they are signing up for when they come out.

[LeftyMom]

36. The problem isn't the kids lack of preparedness, because there shouldn't be any difficulty.

I'm 30, so I've been out of school for what, a decade and change? Plenty of my classmates were out, including one trans kid. The closest thing I saw or heard of to bullying was when somebody (a very religious adult in this case) said a bi girl was just going through a phase. And that wasn't even said in front of the girl in question. :shrug: Seriously, that's the closest thing to bullying based on orientation that I can recall.

If there's a culture of bullying the solution is to fix that (and put THOSE kids in therapy!) not to scoot the gay kids back toward the closet.

[dsc]

38. again that is pretty much what the parents in the last two cases did

and we see the results. Like it or not, being different is hard for teens. Especially if they are the only one.

[William769]

37. I truly am disappointed in your thinking.

And I am really dissappointed in your selectiveness to only answer selective posts.

Don't worry about me though I'm out of this thread. trying to keep people in the closet is just FUCKING WRONG!

P.S. in case you forgot this is what the inside of a closet looks like.

[dsc]

40. I wasn't being selective

I do, believe it or not, have things other than DU to do. The simple fact is, we are apparently seeing an increase in suicides among gay teens even when the parents are supportive and doing the right thing. The fact is it is hard to be out especially if you are the only out person in a particular setting. It is one thing if you are talking a large school with a core group who can be supportive, it is another when you have a small school where a kid is going to be all alone out there. I think that is a lot for a 14 year old to handle. I don't think it is an awful idea for kids to maybe take some time to come to terms with what is going on and to form a plan to deal with it.

[Disorientedx3]

42. a contemplative approach

I agree that we need to find some way to help our kids deal with this. If the world were perfect, our kids would be safe. Yes, we have to work to change the world, but our kids aren't gonna wait. We have to teach them to function in an imperfect here and now. I think it's a fine idea to caution a young person to take some time to come to terms with their feelings and to think about how he/she is going to deal with it.

[ruggerson]

39. This country is extremely fucked up when it comes to both sex and sexuality

most of it as a result of church-based repression and dishonesty.

We should be fighting against that at all costs. Part and parcel of that battle is to help teens and young adults understand and cherish who they are - not push them back in the closet.

[stevenleser]

43. OK, what is your solution that helps the kids NOW.

Every person in this thread is on the same page in that we would like conditions to exist where every LGBT*.* person of any age could come out and not only not be bullied but welcomed, supported and celebrated.

Since that is not happening for some kids, and some are no doubt on the edge of suicide right now, or will be coming out today, tomorrow and the day after and some of those will be on the verge of suicide in the coming days, weeks and months, what do we do about it? How do we deal with that reality?

The OP asked if maybe the message should be sent out to delay coming out for some particularly at risk kids. I'm guessing at risk kids are those with some combination of unsupportive family, peers, community, etc. That is obviously not a long term answer. It may not be the right answer now even. I can understand with kids dying though why the OP raised the idea.

Getting away from what the OP suggested, I asked the question a while back why bullying is not considered something akin to stalking. Stalking is a felony where the police can intervene and take the stalker out of the environment for patterns of harassing behavior, even when physical contact has not occurred. Is pushing for something like that a better solution?

[ruggerson]

50. I agree

with making bullying a felony with stricter punishment. We could also take away tax exempt status from churches who enter the political sphere and spearhead anti gay legislation.

[stevenleser]

52. I'm even more convinced after looking it up that stalking laws already provide the answer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking

"Stalking is a term commonly used to refer to unwanted and obsessive attention by an individual or group to another person. Stalking behaviors are related to harassment and intimidation and may include following the victim in person and/or monitoring them via the internet. The word stalking is used, with some differing meanings, in psychology and psychiatry and also in some legal jurisdictions as a term for a criminal offense.

According to a 2002 report by the National Center for Victims of Crime, "Virtually any unwanted contact between two people that directly or indirectly communicates a threat or places the victim in fear can be considered stalking."<1> "

.
.
.

Stalking can be defined as the willful and repeated following, watching and/or harassing of another person. Most of the time, the purpose of stalking is to attempt to force a relationship with someone who is unwilling or otherwise unavailable. Unlike other crimes, which usually involve one act, stalking is a series of actions that occur over a period of time. Although stalking is illegal, some of the actions that can contribute to stalking are initially legal, such as gathering information, calling someone on the phone, sending gifts, emailing or instant messaging. They become illegal when they breach the legal definition of harassment e.g. an action such as sending a text is not usually illegal, but is illegal when frequently repeated to an unwilling recipient. In fact United Kingdom law states the incident only has to happen twice when the stalker should be aware their behavior is unacceptable e.g. two phone calls to a stranger, two gifts following the victim then phoning them etc. However, the victim may feel they have been the victim of a stalking after one incident e.g. being followed home
------------------------------------------------------------

I see no reason why bullying behavior would not completely fall within this definition. Maybe that's what we should do. Start a campaign to get prosecution and law enforcement to agree to treat bullying as stalking.

I am going to write an article about this.

[iris27]

44. Coming out has nothing to do with it - kids are targeted and attacked as being gay whether they

are or not, whether they have come out or not. Basically anyone who doesn't fit the "norm" in whatever way, where once they would be mocked as "loser" or "freak", now "gay" is automatically added to that list of slurs. Whether or not you stay in the closet doesn't really matter.

The answer is working to get GSA-type groups into more schools, and fighting against conservative asshole mindsets in areas where they are more prevalent. Research has shown that these suicides related to bullying are higher (even among straight kids too) in schools without programs supporting gay rights, as well as in more generally conservative areas.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/04/18/peds.2010-3020.abstract
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/741242

"The measure was a combination of several different broad aspects of the social climate surrounding LGB youth in 34 Oregon counties. These aspects included the proportion of same sex couples; the proportion of Democrats, and 3 aspects of school climate that Dr. Hatzenbuehler noted are particularly relevant to LGB youth:

The proportion of schools with gay-straight alliances (GSAs);
The proportion of schools with antibullying policies specifically aimed at protecting gay students; and
The proportion of schools with antidiscrimination policies that included sexual orientation."

[beyurslf]

47. My son came out at 12. I didn't even know what "gay" was at 12.

And I can add one to the "hardest list." He did all of and was in foster care when he came out.

[WillParkinson]

48. I don't think it's the kids coming out too early...

I think it's the other kids who are not prepared by their families to deal with such things as people might not all be the same.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. i suspect gay teens have always attempted to kill themselves

or successfully killed themselves at the rates and higher than we are seeing now. however, now we know why and a lot more of us care. i dont think asking kids to stay in the closet, is going to work. just like asking kids not to have sex, doesn't work either. I think this issue has no solution in the immediate. i know we all want one, but there isnt a short term solution. i do think investing in community organizations that serve lgbt teens especially in remote areas is part of the solution, but there is no easy fix to a huge societal problem

people (kids or adults) in the closet kill themselves too. asking kids not to come out so early will likely not have any positive effect on teen deaths.

additionally, i think what is gay, is now easier to spot, because gay is not as uncommon as it used to be. i didnt even know there were gay people till i was 12. my baby brother has known about homosexuality since he was 5. i think knowing what gay is makes it easier to spot gays and bully them. i dont even know if this is about closeted or out kids.

[stevenleser]

53. There might be an easy and quick fix. See my #52

[La Lioness Priyanka]

54. no its not. it addresses only one part of why kids maybe killing themselves

it still doesnt get to the hatred part

[stevenleser]

55. OK, well, I'll work on addressing that part. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. ok. having never lived as a gay person, you are extremely arrogant in how

you perceive hatred that has never been directed towards you. you see it in a very narrow space, whereas in reality and for those of us who live in this reality, it is not a narrow problem.

[stevenleser]

58. That's your perspective. From my perspective, I see people willing to criticize but not having any

ideas of their own. That's pretty frustrating. Perhaps my frustration is the source of the tone you term "Arrogance"

[La Lioness Priyanka]

60. the fact that you seem to see a easy solution though several people

who live with this problem daily and for decades, are telling you its not that easy, is what i consider arrogance

i do a lot for my community, none of which i need to detail to you. a lot of us here spend a large amount of our time making the world better for lgbt people.

your arrogance is that you oversimplify without living as us, and without hearing what we are saying. it has nothing to do with being pro-active or solution oriented.

if i were you, i would look into a mirror and see how much privilege you have, when you feel comfortable telling us that you know our problems and our lives better than we do.

[stevenleser]

66. And still you have not offered a solution, only the same stale criticism. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. yes, because i am not arrogant enough to think that there is a simple solution

that only i hold.

and that i am intelligent enough to see that a large scale societal problem, does not have its cure in one simple legal strategy.

[stevenleser]

68. No, because it is easier to criticize someone and label them an outsider than to think.

That is why you are doing what you are doing.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

69. no, there are other straight people on this thread, who i have not

labelled outsiders, because they dont pretend that they know this community & its problems better than we do.

[stevenleser]

70. Right, it's only because i have the temerity to try and think of a solution to the problem

that you have fixated on me. Right, I get it.

[William769]

72. This is the bottom line take it for what it's worth.

We appreciate your support I truly mean that. But the fact of the matter is Heterosexuals are clueless on this subject & I mean that in the nicest possible way.

I have no idea why you were bullied when you were younger And I am sorry it happened to you but your mixing apples & oranges when you compare bullying to Gay bullying they are not the same.

I hate abortion, I despise it, but who I am I to tell a women what to do with her own body, I cannot comprehend what goes through a womans mind when she makes this decision & I'm not even going to try understand because it just won't work. Thats the point I'm trying to make with you. If you can't understand that, I don't know what else to say. once again I will apologize but listening to you talk about something you have no understanding of is well just sad.

[mitchtv]

71. I almost killed myself trying to hide my gayness

MY school was not the problem although it was Catholic, the problem was the neighbohood. I ran with the druggies to hide my true self and ended up near death, and I am still paying for my deception.So, no to the OP, the closet is no solution

[Divine Discontent]

51. it just goes to when are they able to deal with being bullied, as another person said above, being

bullied for being Gay happens to kids who aren't even Gay. So, it sometimes has nothing to do with a Gay person, just the bigotry of others. But, your question is perfectly fine to ask. I suppose if someone is ready to be who they are, and are confident, we have to understand they're kids and they want to be independent, the parent just needs to be protective of them at all costs.



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[The Philosopher]

73. ...

When I am bullied for being fat, I can look at my fat principal and know I can rule the roost someday.

When I am bullied for wearing glasses, I can look at Bill Gates and know my bullies will be spending their money on my products while asking me for a job.

When I am bullied for having a single parent, I can see the other parents and know my bully is naive and that he or she is the abnormal one.

When I am bullied for being gay, I can't look to my parents because they're the only safety I have. I can't look to my principal, because my principal goes to the same church my parents do, where they nod along with my parents--and my superintendent, my mayor, several police officers, several judges, and even my senator--not along to the words of the religious leader saying I am wrong, evil, disgusting, and will be burned and tortured for all eternity by the ultimate authority everyone in the community and government look to for guidance.

If I come out, I got nothing. I can't shed my homosexuality. I can't disguise it. I'm not allowed to come to terms with it. There is no "someday" for me and I am alone; there is no one else to look to, no one to unite with. If I ever did find the hope of other people who are like me, it would only prove how insidious and malicious I am, that I look to infect others with my disease.

However, as I grow up I can realize that none of that is my fault. My homosexuality is not my fault. Nothing changes, though. My senator, the judges, my school officials all agree with my parents who agree with the preacher’s words. They say it’s not my fault, either; I am still an evil.